Kyle Dubas discussion

[GoonieFace]

Meh, if there's no trust or comfort level with that organization because they leak things, it makes sense to walk away.

But things are leaked all the time and according to Allan Walsh the agents and media are used as a communication conduit. So take it or leave it.

Seems like Dubas is being a bit of a baby here. Agents know there are trade talks so it could have been leaked by anyone. For Dubas to come out and name names is pretty lame

 

[29Potvin]

If we are out in round one i could see SK fired and Nylander traded as he will return the best bang for buck.
One saving grace is that most of the teams that are tops currently in our division and spent at this deadline will have the same cap issues/type players to sign in the same time frame if not sooner and spent a good portion of draft capital for a run this season.
TB would be the only team that i do not see dropping off as the have a soiled core and a true number one at each position and draft very well.
Team is balanced

 

[fahad203]

Sooner or later nylander has to go for a top tier goaltender IMO

There are not many goalies in the league you can trade for. If they are young and franchise goalies, they are going to be kept inhouse

That's one area you can only improve by drafting

Take a look at last 5 stanly cup winners

Vasi - drafted by Tampa
Jarry / Fleury - Pittsburgh
Binnington - St.Louis
Quick - LA
Holtby - Washington
Crawford - Chicago

 

[fahad203]

If we are out in round one i could see SK fired and Nylander traded as he will return the best bang for buck.
One saving grace is that most of the teams that are tops currently in our division and spent at this deadline will have the same cap issues/type players to sign in the same time frame if not sooner and spent a good portion of draft capital for a run this season.
TB would be the only team that i do not see dropping off as the have a soiled core and a true number one at each position and draft very well.
Team is balanced

If we are out of first round, everyone needs to go. Simple as that

I am sure Dubas tried, I am sure Keefe tried and may not be their fault. But it will be their responsibilities

Anything baring few rounds, they should go

We should be competing for Stanly Cup, not win rounds. But the bar is so low now, that winning a round has become the target

I mean every other Canadian teams have fired their coach. They have gone to atleast 2nd round last 2 years

This management and Keefe is the only coach that didn't make to 2nd round. Yet this team is the most talented team out of all Canadian teams

 

[Sypher04]

I think with strong goaltending the Leafs have a shot at taking out the Lightning in a skill game just as they do with any other club when the offense is rolling. My worry is that TB with Paul, Perry and Maroon can change their game style to one the Leafs have no answer for if the refs put away the whistles again. Thats not something one deadline deal would have cured and it still has to happen though but a As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, that might affect the future lineup construction.

Re: the Kadri trade, the other player attached to a Calgary deal was Jankowski who's game was disintegrating at the time but Brodie is more valuable than Kerf and one year of Barrie for sure. The other thing is KD could have dealt Barrie once he saw he wasn't working out as hoped instead of doubling down and running him through the playoffs. Its all 20-20 to point things out once the year is over.

Gonna be completely honest here. Nothing about Perry, Paul and Maroon scares me

 

[fahad203]

Gonna be completely honest here. Nothing about Perry, Paul and Maroon scares me

They shouldn't scare you, their job is to annoy you. That they'll do

Perry knows what it takes to win, so does Maroon
They'll get under your skin, poke you here and there, cheap shot here and there

By 6th game, if we go that far with that team, our D would have lost all their sleep
Out goalies would be just hate life

 

[Sypher04]

Why not exactly?

There are plenty of reasons why players wouldn't want to be here.

Auston loves the Coyotes as any Torontonians love the Leafs. There are other cities players would love to play

If he goes to the Rangers, he'll be treated like god in NY and the lifestyle in NY is just something else
He can easily go to California, I mean that's where he's orginally from

He can go to Tampa, players rave about living in Tampa and MIami

There are a lot Canadians' love living in the states and playing for American teams. Rick Nash never wanted to move to Canada, Brent Burns has a nice barn he lives off in Texas

What you’re saying is it’s possible he would want to play elsewhere. That’s fine, I agree. None of that however is an indication he will leave as a UFA or has given any serious thought to playing anywhere else

Also there are strong counter points to all those

 

[Sypher04]

They shouldn't scare you, their job is to annoy you. That they'll do

Perry knows what it takes to win, so does Maroon
They'll get under your skin, poke you here and there, cheap shot here and there

By 6th game, if we go that far with that team, our D would have lost all their sleep
Out goalies would be just hate life

We have players who can be equally annoying. I’m not concerned about it

 

[janesy12]

How can you judge if we've stalled from this playoffs coming up?

We got either Tampa or Florida.

I personally find it very hard to judge if we stalled when we have those opponents. Anyone can lose to them, the past iterations of cup winners would possibly lose to them. I can't remember ever having a division this strong.

They're on pace to get the most points ever for a Maple Leaf team. You may be right they've stalled but how do you know?

They've somehow managed to be a top what? 7 or 8 team with league bottom goaltending. There is some indications that this team is incredibly strong, a top 5 PP and PK, top 3 offensive team - those are the simple stats. Advanced stats even tell you they are elite defensively but not getting stops.

I can't tell if they've stalled.

They did that in 2017-2018. Lost in the first round after Boston blew a 3-1 series lead, only to give up 4 goals in the 3rd in embarrassing fashion.
Then the following season in 2018-2019, they had the 2nd most wins in Leafs history with 46. Blew a 3-2 series lead to the Bruins. Not much progress.
2019-2020, a bit of a worse season. Another "first round" exit to the Blue Jackets.... Definitely no progress...more like a regression.
2020-2021 Despite having their best winning percentage in history (35 wins in 56 games) and having the "easiest" path to the Conference Finals they've had in years, they manage to accomplish an unprecedented collapse against the Habs of all teams. An embarrassing regression to say the least.

So yes, this season they may in fact eclipse their greatest regular season ever in points, and win %, but all that means absolutely nothing if the trend continues and they lose again in the first round. Despite facing a much stiffer opponent than they've faced in recent years. The same argument can be used for losing to a far inferior opponent last season, after having a commanding 3-1 lead.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Re- this and your last reply

Nylander is going to be tricky. He's the only one of the group that's been underpaid and has every reason to push in negotiation. Matthews... 6/5 and pickem. If he wants every dollar it'll be tough.

I have to admit, a certain amount of almost nihilism as crept into my appreciation of sports. The younger piss and vinegar me would hate it, but realizing that being good enough to win / playing good enough to win / winning are three different things that aren't always a package deal has killed both my appreciation at winning and disappointment at losing. I just want a good team that I can enjoy watching and has a chance year after year. There's no guarantees (cough Sharks cough) but IMO it's our best bet for the cup, and i'll take that over an unceasing quest for immediate success that sees us turning over GM's every 3-5 years.

I'm almost the same as you in that regard. I want a good team that I can enjoy watching and has a chance year after year but I also want to win a playoff round or two every now and then and the fact that we haven't won even one damn round yet is what bugs the crap out of me. I mean Sharks sure, I get what you mean that they never won the cup but they won a round every now and then, even made it to the finals once IIRC so we're nowhere close to even their level yet. I get that it's still early and we're in a tough division (though that wasn't an issue in the last two playoff failures) but man, the fact that Matthews can leave in two years makes me nervous.

I agree completely about the contracts - Nylander I expect to push and Matthews ... well hopefully he'll settle for being the highest paid player in the NHL and won't push for getting like 3 million more than anyone else or whatever ... really hope that the fact that Dubas has been such a nice guy to the players will count for something or that Matthews will feel like he has unfinished business here.

Laugh all you want but it's the truth.

Got out of Ritichies contract and actually got a valuable physical RHD at a much lower cap hit was a massive win. (Not saying Dubas didnt create that problem himself but still a great trade)

I thought the Giroux + Gio deals were the best of the whole deadline, mainly because of the leverage the players were putting on management.

Saying that these two recent trades Dubas made are the two best deals anyone in the NHL has made this season has hyperbole and extreme homerism written all over it. But if you think that's the truth, you are of course entitled to that opinion.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Dubas arguably had the best deadline of anyone.

If we addressed goaltending, I would maybe say so but for now I would say we had a good deadline. I really liked the moves that the Rangers and Avs made.

 

[Strangle]

My confusion here is that the reason we lost last year to Montreal is because Marner and Matthews did not step up in the playoffs [and our captain was injured the first year].

Marner being overpaid 2M is not the reason that Matthews and Marner did not perform.

If that is what's holding the team back, what exactly could Kyle or any other GM do other than trade them and rip this whole thing down?

Nobody was saying this years ago, they are deflecting this onto our GM where he is clearly not the problem here.

Leafs went out last season and improved exactly where they needed to. Top defensive team in the NHL in the north division, but still struggled to get production from Matthews and Marner.

I don't see what another GM would have done differently.

I mean, reality shows that goaltending wasn’t the issue last year. No reason to assume it will be this year either.

The team has problems though, they had the injuries to Tavares, Muzzin and Foligno. They also had Matthews and Marner perform underwhelmingly.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s an epic choke job, buuuuuuuut ….. if the best players play like they should, the team skirts any major injuries and Campbell plays like he can, this team can beat Florida or Tampa

 

[Gary Nylund]

So yes, this season they may in fact eclipse their greatest regular season ever in points, and win %, but all that means absolutely nothing if the trend continues and they lose again in the first round. Despite facing a much stiffer opponent than they've faced in recent years. The same argument can be used for losing to a far inferior opponent last season, after having a commanding 3-1 lead.

I have to say I'm amazed how often people keep going on about "greatest season ever" etc. We're 8th overall FFS, are we supposed to be building statues or something for these guys?

 

[29Potvin]

If we addressed goaltending, I would maybe say so but for now I would say we had a good deadline. I really liked the moves that the Rangers and Avs made.

Who outside of MAF would you like that is truly an upgrade?

 

[zeke]

If we addressed goaltending, I would maybe say so but for now I would say we had a good deadline. I really liked the moves that the Rangers and Avs made.

I like the Rangers adds (but tbh offhand can't remember the price they paid), but I think the Avs adds were pretty meh tbh.

But generally I think both those teams added Blackwell level guys not Gio level guys.

Agreed it wasn't a homerun for Dubas and a good goalie would have been nice....then again I'm not sure a Fleury or Kahkonen would have been much of an upgrade tbh.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Seems like Dubas is being a bit of a baby here. Agents know there are trade talks so it could have been leaked by anyone. For Dubas to come out and name names is pretty lame

Lots of people know what is generally happening .. GM's, asst GM's, ownership, players involved, agents of those players and parents/family of those players involved .. yes most keep confidentiality but those who are not happy with GMs direction might not .. for Dubie to think he can control it is kinda childish really .. even great old Lou can't do it .. but Lou will eventually write a book when he hangs it up and most of you will learn quite a bit about how screwed up Leafs situation was

 

[A1LeafNation]

Seems like Dubas is being a bit of a baby here. Agents know there are trade talks so it could have been leaked by anyone. For Dubas to come out and name names is pretty lame

Agents don't know the details unless they are told them. Comes back to Davidson.

 

[CDN24]

The Av's didn't win a round until
Sakic's 6th year
Mackinnon's 6th year
Landeskog's 8th year

Sakic's first 4 years on the job (with Duchene/ROR/Stastny/Landeskog/MacKinnon saw 1 first round loss and three playoff misses.

The Avs are an interesting one, they started 2013-14 with Duchene/ROR/Stastny/Landeskog/MacKinnon and have made a lot of moves some good some bad to get where they are today.

• 2013-14 lose in round 1 with that group
• Lose Stastny to free agency miss playoffs in 14-15 Draft Rantanen in 1st round 10Th
• before 2015-16 trades ROR to Buffalo awful return misses again drafts Jost 1st round 10th
• Duchense is disgruntled Sakic finally trades him and gets kings ransom gets Girard and ottawa's pick 2 years out that becomes Byram. Miss again in 2016-17 and gets Makar at 4th in 2017 with their pick
• 2017-18 make playoffs and lose (core is now Mckinnon/Rantenan Landeskog up front) draft Kaut at 216
• 2018-19 make playoffs and lose in rd 2 Draft Byram with that Ottawa pick and Newhook with theirs, the acquire Kadri for Barrie and kerfoot
• since then they have been on the 2nd round exit plan- is this the year.

Now the core is Mckinnon/Rantenan Landeskog/Kadri/Makar and some other good D.

Other than Mckinnon and Landeskog they turned over the core. had a few steps back to hopefully take a few forward. Seem to be going all in this year as they should as Kadri's great contract is up and Mckinnon has 1 more on his.
Through all of this they never traded away a first round pick until last off season to get a goalie. Leafs were in part a victim of success in reg season too early. another miss or 2 on front end would have helped them and then spend assets when ready to compete.

 

[Machinae]

His resume will start with "4 first round exits in 4 years at the helm of the Toronto Maple Leafs". Teams may be interested, but falling over themselves to get him, I severely doubt it. Might be wise to stay away from Budget teams.

How about "made the playoffs every year he has been an NHL GM"? You can spin anything without context. His teams have gone the distance in every series, never a 4-0 blow out, there is merit to that in a sport that can quite frankly be completely random at times. There is no logical reason to blow this up, only illogical emotional fan sentiments.

 

[Sypher04]

I mean, reality shows that goaltending wasn’t the issue last year. No reason to assume it will be this year either.

The team has problems though, they had the injuries to Tavares, Muzzin and Foligno. They also had Matthews and Marner perform underwhelmingly.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s an epic choke job, buuuuuuuut ….. if the best players play like they should, the team skirts any major injuries and Campbell plays like he can, this team can beat Florida or Tampa

I agree with all parts of what you said, but technically the injuries went even further. Or at least the impacts of in some cases.

Hyman had just returned from the IR and was not very effective at all.

Matthews clearly still had wrist injury issues. To the point he eventually had surgery on it. You could tell his shooting was off that whole series

 

[Nylanderthal]

A client of mine was in the restaurant business. He owned a few.

He would never own a restaurant without a ten-year lease with at least another ten-year right of renewal.

Some of his restaurants failed -- that was a risk he was willing and able to take -- but most of them succeeded, and he knew the importance of patience, perseverance and longevity in building a successful business.

I don't really know much about business or hockey, but I do wonder if the same principle applies?

Cycling out coaches is one thing in an effort to pull the correct strings in the room. Upheaving the entire front office generally sets your franchise back a season maybe even 2 in just assessment & changing out pieces, and is generally reserved for teams either on their way or at the basement.
Unless there’s a hill this brass is willing to die on (refusing to move a core piece if playoff failure continues in the same fashion) I can’t see MLSE throwing away the baby with the bath water.

 

[Nylanderthal]

This does seem to be a coaching/philosophy issue.

The players seem to be being instructed not to play physical

This is nonsense, they wouldn’t put a priority on bringing in guys like that then neuter them. Maybe these “tough guys” on others teams shift in and out just aren’t what you think they are compared to highlight packs you get on sportscentre

 

[fahad203]

They did that in 2017-2018. Lost in the first round after Boston blew a 3-1 series lead, only to give up 4 goals in the 3rd in embarrassing fashion.
Then the following season in 2018-2019, they had the 2nd most wins in Leafs history with 46. Blew a 3-2 series lead to the Bruins. Not much progress.
2019-2020, a bit of a worse season. Another "first round" exit to the Blue Jackets.... Definitely no progress...more like a regression.
2020-2021 Despite having their best winning percentage in history (35 wins in 56 games) and having the "easiest" path to the Conference Finals they've had in years, they manage to accomplish an unprecedented collapse against the Habs of all teams. An embarrassing regression to say the least.

So yes, this season they may in fact eclipse their greatest regular season ever in points, and win %, but all that means absolutely nothing if the trend continues and they lose again in the first round. Despite facing a much stiffer opponent than they've faced in recent years. The same argument can be used for losing to a far inferior opponent last season, after having a commanding 3-1 lead.

Losing to Boston I can chew on. They wre a very good team, we were a very young team

Losing to Columbus and Montreal. Unless Keefe wins a Stanly Cup, I'll never forgive him Especially playing Montreal and North. You couldn't have a path to Stanly Cup set any easier. Yet you blew it

 

[Nylanderthal]

Was it Dubas that said no to that supposed leaked trade (Hagel, Fleury for 1st, Knies and Mrazek) or was it Davidson? Dubas is pissed because Davidson leaked it publicly, but who said no or was that never confirmed?

Well Chicago moved both players that were mentioned on their end and the leafs moved none of pieces in question…

 

[Sypher04]

Was it Dubas that said no to that supposed leaked trade (Hagel, Fleury for 1st, Knies and Mrazek) or was it Davidson? Dubas is pissed because Davidson leaked it publicly, but who said no or was that never confirmed?

Pretty sure it was Knies and two firsts. Not one