Kyle Dubas discussion

[ChazzMichaelMichaels]

Absolutely, most of the posters who want him fired, wanted him fired before the deadline; some wanted him fired after the slow start, disappeared for couple of months; some wanted him fired before the season started.

I'd say some wanted him fired the second he was hired.

 

[ChazzMichaelMichaels]

I think it’s mostly because he was gifted a team with huge potential and they’ve haven’t really progressed much in the 4 years. Fans are frustrated by that.

I can understand that. But we wanted an improved blueline and I'd say he accomplished that. People wanted vets and some more grit and I'd say he's acquired that the last few years.

If he's fired and a new GM is hired what's going to be fixed? What happens if we take a step back after that and it was the wrong decision while surely Dubas will get another job elsewhere.

As a player's GM who for everything we know of him, he's well liked by players. We fire him this summer do we think it's more or less likely Matthews leaves? What's the end game in firing him?

 

[ACC1224]

I'd say some wanted him fired the second he was hired.

Sure there are all kinds here.
IMO, they are no different than those who never see fault and plead for never ending patience.

 

[Gary Nylund]

We all had hopes to be a Chicago/Pittsburgh, but some thought it was their inevitable right and Dubas stole it from them.

I can't complain that we haven't won multiple cups yet with this core but I think not even being able to win one round is pretty poor performance and definitely worthy of criticism. Outscored 14-6 in our last 4 game 7's (11-2 in the last 3) suggests that maybe something is rotten with core of this team, or maybe it's just the goaltending?

Sometimes it feels like some fans would rather the Leafs fail with a GM they like than win with Dubas as GM.

I know we haven't won a round but the lack of patience and seeing the teams he's built as legit good teams is a little strange to me. It's like when you constantly hear day in and day out how Dubas hasn't brought in size or a good blueline yet he's work to acquire both but for some reason there is a narrative he doesn't.

Those narratives are idiotic for sure. But if the reason we always lose in the playoffs is the goaltending, that's on him for sure. Bottom line is that it's him team now and he gets the credit when we win, but it's also fair to question his moves when we lose (as we always do in the playoffs for some reason).

 

[ACC1224]

I can understand that. But we wanted an improved blueline and I'd say he accomplished that. People wanted vets and some more grit and I'd say he's acquired that the last few years.

If he's fired and a new GM is hired what's going to be fixed? What happens if we take a step back after that and it was the wrong decision while surely Dubas will get another job elsewhere.

As a player's GM who for everything we know of him, he's well liked by players. We fire him this summer do we think it's more or less likely Matthews leaves? What's the end game in firing him?

I’d say it would be the same with any change in management, to take the team in a different direction.
Yes, Matthews may walk if Dubas leaves. He may also walk if the team continues to fail.
No one knows what Matthews thinks. IMO, decisions need to be made for the good of the team, not based on one player.

In Dubas’ defense, the flat cap was his undoing.

 

[Zybalto]

Sounds likes Dubas and the Leafs are very high on the Leafs top prospects and so are any of the other teams that wanted to give up good goaltending at the deadline (especially Knies).

It's a very unforgiving thing to stand pat. Despite making two of the best deals of the year (Ritchie trade and Gio trade), the goaltending thing is what everyone is going to be looking at of course.

I do think Campbell is going to bounce back after a good rest but I'm still worried about his longevity and the options behind him...that being said, Bobrovsky has had some pretty brutal stretches (including a sub .900 month of games just recently ) so not the only team in that boat.

Gonna be a great final run to the playoffs here with all the Atlantic teams that loaded up facing each other quite a bit.

 

[ChazzMichaelMichaels]

Sure there are all kinds here.
IMO, they are no different than those who never see fault and plead for never ending patience.

I'm not suggesting never ending patience, I'm trying my best year after year to look at every transaction, every iteration of the team that any GM has iced. I think Dubas has made a few huge blunders but he's done a lot of good as well. I think it's super easy to build down a team but putting the finishing touches is as hard as it gets.

Regardless of who is GM I think it takes a ton of luck to win. One post in a game, one freak injury, one hot goalie.

If they move on from Dubas I'll sure as hell support whoever comes in and be doing the same thing I'm doing now, excited for what they bring or don't bring. I won't be like what seems to be every corner of the internet these days where fandoms exist where people get mad cause a TV show or movie doesn't do what you envision so you demand change so things are your way.

 

[Gary Nylund]

The most vocally negative impatient part of this board would have fired Yzerman and Sakic, and those franchises would have been worse for it.

*(playoff success pending)

That's very true. Change for the sake of change isn't a good idea here, at least IMHO it isn't. But the flip side of this coin is that there's no guarantee that playoff success is coming in the near future, and if Dubas eventually is replaced and we finally have that success we've been waiting for with a different philosophy at the helm, it will be understandable if those "impatient" people say you should have replaced Dubas years ago, why did you wait so long?

There are argument to be made both for or against Dubas. IMHO the only people completely out to lunch are the ones acting as if the decision to fire him or to keep him is an obvious one, and anyone suggesting a different course of action is an idiot.

 

[The90]

The same people stamping their feet to have him fired for not getting a goalie would be stamping their feet to have him fired for "making a bad move to blatantly try and save his job"

Exactly this. People just need a scapegoat. I look at that D core now and see a D group as deep as anyone in the league that aside from Rielly (because he excels in other areas), finishes their checks and won’t be easy to play against.

You look at the forward group, the top 2 lines are as good if not better than any other team in the league. You have a top 3 shut down line in the league with kampf mikheyev and engvall and a fourth line that has spezza, and a roatating combination of Kase, Blackwell and simmonds. That’s a really deep forward group. We’ve also never really had a solid third line that we can rely on in the Matthews/ JT 1a/B era.

The wildcard is the goaltending. The leafs aren’t asking for the world from Campbell Kallgren or Mrazek. They’re asking one of the 3 to play league average or better defence. It’s unlikely mrazek and Campbell continue on the run they’re on. This is the biggest weakness of the group, but it’s a gamble I understand.

The leafs under Dubas are going to put up a ~110 point season in the best conference in hockey. They’ve yet to find any sort of luck or bounces go their way in the playoffs. At some point a betting man sees that his luck changes. Is it this year? Hopefully but maybe not. They are right there though, from a logic standpoint does it really make sense to strip a 110 point team down and try again? Probably not.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Sounds likes Dubas and the Leafs are very high on the Leafs top prospects and so are any of the other teams that wanted to give up good goaltending at the deadline (especially Knies).

It's a very unforgiving thing to stand pat. Despite making two of the best deals of the year (Ritchie trade and Gio trade), the goaltending thing is what everyone is going to be looking at of course.

I do think Campbell is going to bounce back after a good rest but I'm still worried about his longevity and the options behind him...that being said, Bobrovsky has had some pretty brutal stretches (including a sub .900 month of games just recently ) so not the only team in that boat.

Gonna be a great final run to the playoffs here with all the Atlantic teams that loaded up facing each other quite a bit.

LOL.

 

[I am Canadian]

And another 1st round exit does what exactly? I agree you can't sell the farm for mediocre deadline pickups. That happened last year, but If they lose yet again in the 1st round, where do you go from here. Matthews has 2 more seasons before every team in the league gets a chance to throw an unbelievable amount of money at him. We'd better hope for some playoff success before then.

My confusion here is that the reason we lost last year to Montreal is because Marner and Matthews did not step up in the playoffs [and our captain was injured the first year].

Marner being overpaid 2M is not the reason that Matthews and Marner did not perform.

If that is what's holding the team back, what exactly could Kyle or any other GM do other than trade them and rip this whole thing down?

Nobody was saying this years ago, they are deflecting this onto our GM where he is clearly not the problem here.

Leafs went out last season and improved exactly where they needed to. Top defensive team in the NHL in the north division, but still struggled to get production from Matthews and Marner.

I don't see what another GM would have done differently.

 

[4thline]

I can't complain that we haven't won multiple cups yet with this core but I think not even being able to win one round is pretty poor performance and definitely worthy of criticism. Outscored 14-6 in our last 4 game 7's (11-2 in the last 3) suggests that maybe something is rotten with core of this team, or maybe it's just the goaltending?

Which circles back to my favourite tongue in cheek callout of him being gifted with "schrodinger's elite young core" that he's somehow wrong for "wasting" by not pulling the plug immediately.

 

[ACC1224]

I'm not suggesting never ending patience, I'm trying my best year after year to look at every transaction, every iteration of the team that any GM has iced. I think Dubas has made a few huge blunders but he's done a lot of good as well. I think it's super easy to build down a team but putting the finishing touches is as hard as it gets.

Regardless of who is GM I think it takes a ton of luck to win. One post in a game, one freak injury, one hot goalie.

If they move on from Dubas I'll sure as hell support whoever comes in and be doing the same thing I'm doing now, excited for what they bring or don't bring. I won't be like what seems to be every corner of the internet these days where fandom lies where people get mad cause a TV show or movie doesn't do what you envision so you demand change so things are your way.

All good. I can appreciate people having differing views. You seem fairly reasonable, I don’t think I’d consider you a Dubite. Those guys are hard to take.

 

[ChazzMichaelMichaels]

All good. I can appreciate people having differing views. You seem fairly reasonable, I don’t think I’d consider you a Dubite. Those guys are hard to take.

I mean, I probably lean closer to being a Dubite but I also really supported Burkie and really wanted him to succeed with his style of hockey. Dubas has been gifted the unicorn of all hockey in Matthews and I think if many GMs had him and Marner they'd obviously be successful as well and could make a Cup run. I just want to see this played out an appropriate amount before drastic changes come.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Which circles back to my favourite tongue in cheek callout of him being gifted with "schrodinger's elite young core" that he's somehow wrong for "wasting" by not pulling the plug immediately.

Not sure what you mean by "pulling the plug". Is trading one core piece "pulling the plug"?

 

[inthe6ix]

It was Dubas, and there were multiple 1sts being asked.

If you read the article, you would have seen that Toronto was fine with giving up the 1sts, but not fine with giving up Knies.

Thanks, no I did not see the article, but glad KD said no. Just hope it doesn't impact our relationship with Knies, knowing that we contemplated moving him.

Sucks all around, but the Hawks are good at cover ups and denial, so not at all surprised something this slimy would leak from their end.

 

[janesy12]

Where do we go from here? Well, you make the changes you feel you need in the off-season and try again. Literally is what all 32 teams will do. Luckily were one of the few that have a few pieces that you can only get in a full re-build and another year of information on players like Willy, etc to decide if what's best is a less top heavy squad,

Sure, but most teams that have been doing that have seem some success, and make changes to get them through the next phase. We've been stalled.

 

[Leaf Fans]

I'd say some wanted him fired the second he was hired.

Yes, there are some like that as well.

 

[4thline]

That's very true. Change for the sake of change isn't a good idea here, at least IMHO it isn't. But the flip side of this coin is that there's no guarantee that playoff success is coming in the near future, and if Dubas eventually is replaced and we finally have that success we've been waiting for with a different philosophy at the helm, it will be understandable if those "impatient" people say you should have replaced Dubas years ago, why did you wait so long?

Honestly I see one of two things happening if we go down that course.
Shanny survives, and brings in a steady hand that basically continues on the same course making tweaks, having success based on the table Dubas set (graduations of some combo of Robertson/Knies/Abruzzese/Holmberg/Steeves/Niemela, continued growth of Liljegren/Sandin etc). Some will say I told you so, but his fingerprints will be all over any actual winning. If this is what happens Dubas can be shown the door tomorrow for all I care.

We backslide at the ownership level and make a "clearing house" organizational shift similar to the Fletcher/Burke transition, and it scares the shit out of me.

Of course there are paths in between. But that's the way I see the general split based on this organizations history.

 

[Bloomberg]

I can understand that. But we wanted an improved blueline and I'd say he accomplished that. People wanted vets and some more grit and I'd say he's acquired that the last few years.

If he's fired and a new GM is hired what's going to be fixed? What happens if we take a step back after that and it was the wrong decision while surely Dubas will get another job elsewhere.

As a player's GM who for everything we know of him, he's well liked by players. We fire him this summer do we think it's more or less likely Matthews leaves? What's the end game in firing him?

Probably trading one of the big 4. Also contract negotiations are coming up again for Matthews and Nylander soon. Do you trust Dubas to negotiate those contracts?

 

[Machinae]

There's no doubt something needs to change if they lose again (personally, I'd think the team would need a culture shock), but if Dubas were to be fired I think teams would fall over themselves to get him. Losing Dubas would be downgrading the organization tremendously for -maybe- a short term gain in roster construction.

 

[4thline]

Not sure what you mean by "pulling the plug". Is trading one core piece "pulling the plug"?

Depends on the trade. I've been more on board with trading either of Marner/Nylander at different times than most, but both have made me look like a donkey for it as well.

But giving up an elite player (and potential HoFer in Marner) before their 25th birthday is such a "Leafy" thing to do. I'm not going to blame him for giving them every chance to grow into themselves here rather than somewhere else.

 

[Machinae]

Thanks, no I did not see the article, but glad KD said no. Just hope it doesn't impact our relationship with Knies, knowing that we contemplated moving him.

Sucks all around, but the Hawks are good at cover ups and denial, so not at all surprised something this slimy would leak from their end.

I think it's quite clear at this point that almost every team in the league was trying to get Knies from Toronto, and Toronto said hell no.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Honestly I see one of two things happening if we go down that course.
Shanny survives, and brings in a steady hand that basically continues on the same course making tweaks, having success based on the table Dubas set (graduations of some combo of Robertson/Knies/Abruzzese/Holmberg/Steeves/Niemela, continued growth of Liljegren/Sandin etc). Some will say I told you so, but his fingerprints will be all over any actual winning. If this is what happens Dubas can be shown the door tomorrow for all I care.

We backslide at the ownership level and make a "clearing house" organizational shift similar to the Fletcher/Burke transition, and it scares the shit out of me.

Of course there are paths in between. But that's the way I see the general split based on this organizations history.

I wouldn't assume that success is inevitable, especially if Matthews decides to leave, not to mention Nylander.

 

[ChazzMichaelMichaels]

Probably trading one of the big 4. Also contract negotiations are coming up again for Matthews and Nylander soon. Do you trust Dubas to negotiate those contracts?

Why not? Nylander's contract looks about right and Matthews is probably worth more than he got.

Dubas won't rock the boat with Matthews and they seem to have a good relationship and a level of trust there. Ofcourse I say that not knowing exactly how they feel about each other haha