Kyle Dubas discussion II

[meefer]

Who cares how many they win in the regular season if it just leads to playoff failure? Those teams get rightfully made fun of.

Why comment on something that doesn't matter?

 

[Jojalu]

Who cares how many they win in the regular season if it just leads to playoff failure? Those teams get rightfully made fun of.

You would care if they didn't win enough to make the playoffs. Apparantly everyone cares or there wouldn't have to be a meltdown and lynch party formed after every loss.

That being said, it would be nice and past due for some playoff success.

 

[JKG33]

You would care if they didn't win enough to make the playoffs. Apparantly everyone cares or there wouldn't have to be a meltdown and lynch party formed after every loss.

That being said, it would be nice and past due for some playoff success.

All you have to do is get in. In the playoffs you have to beat the truly great teams regardless, seeding doesn't matter. 1st or 8th... who cares.

Making the playoffs is the bare minimum. If they couldn't even do that there would be bigger problems.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Personally I've been roped in yet again by optimism regarding this team. I like how they match up against Tampa and I really do think Tampa is losing some of their hunger coming off back to back cups. Leafs should hands down come out the more desperate team in that series but Vasi can be scary in the playoffs.

I think we have a chance against Tampa too. But I would much rather have played anyone else. Tampa has Vasi, Hedman, McD, Sergey and Cernak. Honestly I can't think of a harder matchup. Big fast tough nasty and best tender in world right now. I think we will actually outgun them on skills upfront but that backend is world class. And backends win series and championships. I am hoping Boston catches them. In fact I would completely throw last game of year against Bruins if it meant avoiding them. I know Bruins will try to maul us again but I think we can man up to them and I don't see any Bruins beating down Cliffy and Wayner. We can go donnybrook if required. To me I want home ice. Then Bruins 1st and Tampa 2nd.

 

[AuraSphere]

Andersen was injured.

Flawed logic - his timeline was to return before the playoffs and he did. That's like saying Jack Campbell was injured. I know Mrazek wasn't injured at the time, but hes also fairly injury prone.

Also you can't ignore the fact that both our goalies struggled so bringing in a 3rd wouldn't be the worst thing. You have to remember we sent Mrazek down to the AHL and were relying on Kallgren for a stretch.

 

[SprDaVE]

Flawed logic - his timeline was to return before the playoffs and he did. That's like saying Jack Campbell was injured. I know Mrazek wasn't injured at the time, but hes also fairly injury prone.

Also you can't ignore the fact that both our goalies struggled so bringing in a 3rd wouldn't be the worst thing. You have to remember we sent Mrazek down to the AHL and were relying on Kallgren for a stretch.

That's not any sort of logic. They are facts. Campbell wasn't injured LTIR like Andersen was pre deadline. He was day to day.

Goaltenders were not very good though, yes. But we had no cap space and there was no goaltender available that would have been an upgrade.

 

[AuraSphere]

That's not any sort of logic. They are facts. Campbell wasn't injured LTIR like Andersen was pre deadline. He was day to day.

Goaltenders were not very good though, yes. But we had no cap space and there was no goaltender available that would have been an upgrade.

There was availability - it's just a matter of Dubas not wanting to part with 1sts. The ask for Gibson was high - so I get not going for him. But I would much rather have a veteran guy like Craig Anderson as a backup over Kallgren/Mrazek. He probably could have been had for a 3rd and was reported available.

 

[SprDaVE]

There was availability - it's just a matter of Dubas not wanting to part with 1sts. The ask for Gibson was high - so I get not going for him. But I would much rather have a veteran guy like Craig Anderson as a backup over Kallgren/Mrazek. He probably could have been had for a 3rd and was reported available.

There was no indication Anderson being available.

So now we're playing the "what if" game to apply whatever logic we want to criticize.

 

[AuraSphere]

There was no indication Anderson being available.

So now we're playing the "what if" game to apply whatever logic we want to criticize.

I mean hey man - even if that's the case. It doesn't change the fact that both our goalies were struggling this season regardless. Dubas made a coin-flip bet with Campbell returning to his former self.

"Injury" isn't the only reason you go out and get a goalie. If you have 2 goalies with sub .900 save percentage playing like AHL goalies - probably a good idea to go out and get a goalie to contend for a cup rather than wasting yet another year of our core.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I have zero doubt that we were as good/bad as the Columbus Blue Jackets. I'm making a point that a large majority portion of the fanbase has been calling us ultra elite for the past 4 years.

I don't believe we have been.

Finish around 6th overall and never advance past the 1st round in the playoffs - I'm with you, that's not elite, that's not even close to being elite. It's a subjective term so if people want to say that's elite they're entitled but I refuse to set the bar that low. Win a f***ing playoff round first FFS.

Elite regular season team, maybe. If 6th overall is elite then fine I guess but still, nothing to brag about IMO. And if surpassing 105 points is enough to make this "the best Leaf team ever" then I have similar "yeah, so what" emotions about that as well because going by that standard, there are probably a dozen or so teams who have had seasons equal or better then this "best Leaf team ever" standard during just the last couple of years so not really that noteworthy IMO.

I'd like to better than the other teams in the league TODAY, not better than Leaf teams of bygone eras when we mostly sucked. And I'd especially like to be better than other teams in the playoffs where it really counts, not in November when nothing is really at stake yet for the teams that know they're going to be in the playoffs and don't even have their game faces on yet.

How the hell did this team win 50 games with so many players that need to be fired into the sun?

LOL, fair question.

 

[zeke]

fyi the Leafs are 12-2-1 since that disastrous trade deadline inluding 3-0-1 vs FLA, TB, and BOS with a goal differential of +2 per game.

 

[ShaneFalco]

I mean hey man - even if that's the case. It doesn't change the fact that both our goalies were struggling this season regardless. Dubas made a coin-flip bet with Campbell returning to his former self.

"Injury" isn't the only reason you go out and get a goalie. If you have 2 goalies with sub .900 save percentage playing like AHL goalies - probably a good idea to go out and get a goalie to contend for a cup rather than wasting yet another year of our core.

It was risky right from the beginning. Campbell who hadn't played a full year, and Mrazek who has a history of injuries.
As to who was available at the TDL? None of us have a management team with contacts all over the league so how can anyone answer that?!

 

[SprDaVE]

I mean hey man - even if that's the case. It doesn't change the fact that both our goalies were struggling this season regardless. Dubas made a coin-flip bet with Campbell returning to his former self.

"Injury" isn't the only reason you go out and get a goalie. If you have 2 goalies with sub .900 save percentage playing like AHL goalies - probably a good idea to go out and get a goalie to contend for a cup rather than wasting yet another year of our core.

You can't just keep going out and adding people without a rippling effect and roster issues arising. Anderson wasn't going to give us world class goaltending, he's a .896% goaltender, granted for a bad team. Why waste a top 90 pick on a 40-41 year old? Kallgren was fine. Woll was fine but got injured. Mrazek was healthy, albeit he sucked and got injured. Campbell was going to be the guy regardless. If the best goaltender Dubas could get for depth was Anderson... I am glad they didn't do anything.

Dubas was never going to find a good goaltender for both the cap space we had and the assets we had to give. If you can't accept that, I'm not sure Dubas can ever win you over.

 

[HolyCrap]

Failed to address the goaltending issue properly, again.

Leafs will be better off with a new GM this summer.

That’s the question mark no doubt. That said it doesn’t mean they are gaurenteed to lose. You gotta be realistic but also optimistic that they overcome our expectations. They have a hard route to the cup and have zero history of post season success but crazier things have happened. If they lose first round I agree Dubas is gone. But if they get past first round who happens to be Tampa I think he’s safe. All Campbell needs to do is be average and this team can make noise. Its probably tough being a Leafs fan in BC.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

The goaltending has most assuredly been this teams weak point, I myself wasn't all that high on Mrazek signing but was on board for Campbell being the starter after Andersen's disastrous final two years with the team. For sure injury trouble and bad play have had an adverse affect, but the fact that this team will still win 50+ games and may finish with home ice advantage in a division that includes Florida, Tampa, and Boston speaks volumes to how well Dubas has built the rest of the team. The Giordano trade especially may be the best deadline deal this franchise has made since Leetch in 2004.

Sure, acquiring someone like Fleury have helped solidified our chances of a series win, but if the cost was Knies + a 1st ++ I can't help but be in agreement with Dubas that I'd rather bet on Campbell returning to form than blow through even more futures, something this franchise traded away in spades last season. You can't keep shipping picks and prospect out the door every year, especially when young players on ELCs or cheap contracts will be much needed when we inevitably need to re-sign Matthews, Marner, Nylander, and a goalie. Saying "oh but our first will be late" isn't all that valid an excuse when later picks for us, especially under Dubas, have yielded us talent well beyond where they were picked. Plus, Campbell was close to returning and lest we forget Mrazek in his final two games looked to be turning a corner before another injury derailed his season.

After all is said and done, I don't think I can be on board with firing Dubas should they fail again in the first round of the post-season. At least not automatically. He's done far more for this franchise than every GM we've had since the 04-05 lockout combined. His work on our Defence Corps alone gives him leeway. Not to mention our likely opponent is the reigning back to back Cup Champions so it's not like we're getting another "freebie" like Montreal was supposed to be last year. Also at some point the players on the ice have to hold up their ends of the bargain too. M&M are brilliant once again but they need to produce in the playoffs if we hope to have a chance.

 

[conFABulator]

Of course Chicago wanted a larger deal which we didn’t want but if you look at what they got just for fleury I’m sure something could have worked for our first and another lesser prospect. I don’t know why he wanted our first so much he decided to gamble on the lack of goaltending. Everything has aligned for us this year and good teams make the move to improve the team to the next level. We can’t outscore our goaltending woes in the playoffs especially when the refs are worse than they usually are. Dubas gets an F from me. Goaltending definitely 100 per cent should have been addressed

Why just look at what they got for Fleury? They traded both Fleury and Hagel and the return they got was two prospects, two firsts and a conditional 1st (2nd).

We wanted both Hagel and Fleury. So, what's the comparable? Two firsts, a condition first and two young players/prospects.

If you say we just go after Fleury and not Hagel, I point out that we have to include Mrazek to make it work. It sounds like a 1st + something sweet (Knies) just to match what they ended up getting.

 

[Gary Nylund]

The goaltending has most assuredly been this teams weak point, I myself wasn't all that high on Mrazek signing but was on board for Campbell being the starter after Andersen's disastrous final two years with the team. For sure injury trouble and bad play have had an adverse affect, but the fact that this team will still win 50+ games and may finish with home ice advantage in a division that includes Florida, Tampa, and Boston speaks volumes to how well Dubas has built the rest of the team. The Giordano trade especially may be the best deadline deal this franchise has made since Leetch in 2004.

Sure, acquiring someone like Fleury have helped solidified our chances of a series win, but if the cost was Knies + a 1st ++ I can't help but be in agreement with Dubas that I'd rather bet on Campbell returning to form than blow through even more futures, something this franchise traded away in spades last season. You can't keep shipping picks and prospect out the door every year, especially when young players on ELCs or cheap contracts will be much needed when we inevitably need to re-sign Matthews, Marner, Nylander, and a goalie. Saying "oh but our first will be late" isn't all that valid an excuse when later picks for us, especially under Dubas, have yielded us talent well beyond where they were picked. Plus, Campbell was close to returning and lest we forget Mrazek in his final two games looked to be turning a corner before another injury derailed his season.

After all is said and done, I don't think I can be on board with firing Dubas should they fail again in the first round of the post-season. At least not automatically. He's done far more for this franchise than every GM we've had since the 04-05 lockout combined. His work on our Defence Corps alone gives him leeway. Not to mention our likely opponent is the reigning back to back Cup Champions so it's not like we're getting another "freebie" like Montreal was supposed to be last year. Also at some point the players on the ice have to hold up their ends of the bargain too. M&M are brilliant once again but they need to produce in the playoffs if we hope to have a chance.

Great post, a lot of good points and I agree with every word, especially this: Also at some point the players on the ice have to hold up their ends of the bargain too. M&M are brilliant once again but they need to produce in the playoffs if we hope to have a chance.

I love the way Marner's playing lately but if he puts up 4 points in 7 games again then what, are we really blaming Dubas? I mean if that happens and people complain that Dubas should have looked into trading Marner last summer then fine, I just hope the people saying that won't be the same ones raving today about how he's been playing so great that he's "worth every penny".

 

[Nylanderthal]

Failed to address the goaltending issue properly, again.

Leafs will be better off with a new GM this summer.

What was your proposed solution at the TDL to fix this issue?

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

All you have to do is get in. In the playoffs you have to beat the truly great teams regardless, seeding doesn't matter. 1st or 8th... who cares.

Making the playoffs is the bare minimum. If they couldn't even do that there would be bigger problems.

Actually it does. I haven't looked in recent years but for something like a 25 - 30 year period, only twice did a team seeded lower than 4th in their conference (in a regular season) win the Cup.

Just getting in usually doesn't work.

 

[Leaf Fans]

They had an embarrassing loss against Boston? I’d even argue the Columbus loss wasn’t embarrassing.

No, losing to an equal/better team is not embarrassing. Obviously we can’t make excuses forever and they need some playoff success, but the term “embarrassing” is being used way to liberal when discussing the Leafs playoff woes.

Do we all have to be embarrassed? Or just a few of us?

 

[JKG33]

Actually it does. I haven't looked in recent years but for something like a 25 - 30 year period, only twice did a team seeded lower than 4th in their conference (in a regular season) win the Cup.

Just getting in usually doesn't work.

In 2019 the Blues won it from #5 in the conference, that was dead last at christmas that year. LA won from #6 in 2014. In 2012 LA snuck in as a #8 and had one of the most dominant playoff runs ever. Thats three times over just the last 10 years. Even last year Tampa was tied for 8th overall in the league, that would put them in the range of a #4-5 seed in the conference format.

There's just way too much parity in the league, and then you have higher seeded teams that dominate the regular season yet aren't built for the playoffs (I believe this is where the Leafs are). Now more than ever it's a matter of just getting in. I'd rather have a team that can take a night off yet I know still has a killer instinct (Tampa the last few years, LA during their runs).

 

[saltming]

The clubs luck with goalies has been ridiculous. I have blamed a number of miscues on pro scouting, and specifically Troy Body so was pleased to see him off to the Kraken. Contrary to what some believe Dubas is not a scout and doesn't bird dog either prospects of players he wants to acquire. They have people for that who spend a lot more rink side and video time then the GM could ever spare, so when someone asks how much gas does Simmonds/Jumbo/Foligno have left in the tank? Of course he doesn't go in blind but that is what his staff are for.

Pro scouting and maybe the goalie coach would have a lot of influence but some of it is just shit luck.

Agreed. And I've gripped about the goalie coach for years now.
We need to steal the scouts who found sorokin or shesterkin (spelling?) our picks seem very blah for whatever reason.
I loved the Woll pick, so I'm obviously not a good candidate and the Scott pick gave me hope too.
But alas

 

[JKG33]

They had an embarrassing loss against Boston? I’d even argue the Columbus loss wasn’t embarrassing.

No, losing to an equal/better team is not embarrassing. Obviously we can’t make excuses forever and they need some playoff success, but the term “embarrassing” is being used way to liberal when discussing the Leafs playoff woes.

The playoff losses have been getting progressively more embarrassing each year with this group. Really only Washington and Boston (2018) were "acceptable." Boston (2019), Columbus, and Montreal were all embarrassing loses.

 

[Leaf Fans]

I don’t think it was any surprise that Mrazek went down again and even if he didn’t, he hasn’t been very good.
I’m always quick to point out the good things Dubas does. If Campbell can carry the load Dubas will get the praise he deserves. Seems premature to give it to him now when even he admitted he needed a goalie.

How did he admit he needed a goalie?

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

In 2019 the Blues won it from #5 in the conference, that was dead last at christmas that year. LA won from #6 in 2014. In 2012 LA snuck in as a #8 and had one of the most dominant playoff runs ever. Thats three times over just the last 10 years. Even last year Tampa was tied for 8th overall in the league, that would put them in the range of a #4-5 seed in the conference format.

There's just way too much parity in the league, and then you have higher seeded teams that dominate the regular season yet aren't built for the playoffs (I believe this is where the Leafs are). Now more than ever it's a matter of just getting in. I'd rather have a team that can take a night off yet I know still has a killer instinct (Tampa the last few years, LA during their runs).

LA were the two in something like a 25-30 year period (I think it was since a 21 team league?).

So yeah, seeding does matter. Moreso in the sense that if you aren't a top 4, you basically aren't good enough to run the distance 9.5 times out of 10. Please note as well that in 2/3 examples, those teams went on absolute long runs.