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Kyle Dubas discussion II

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JKG33 said:
My 3 in 10 (4 in 10 if you count 2021 Tampa) is a large enough and more recent sample size. So no, seeding isn't the be all end all.

Obviously more often than not the better teams finish higher. But for every team that dominates the regular season and wins the cup (like say Pittsburgh), theres also teams like Toronto (last year) or San Jose (late 2000's till mid 2010's) or Vancouver (late 2000's till 2012ish) that look great in the regular season and fail to win when it counts.
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Yes only one team can win and not surprisingly, the vast majority of the time it is one of the top regular season teams that has the gas to go all the way.
 
JKG33 said:
If he's playing well they wouldn't need a goalie and this discussion would be irrelevant
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Jack has played so well when healthy this season he was an all-star. Fleury was exposed over Murray and given away to Chicago after being ran out of town for playoff failures and his representation sewering the organization in the midst of a playoff run. Also his numbers both raw and relative are worse than Soup.
All at the cost of our first our prized prospect and the inability to add Gio & Blackwell
 
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ToneDog said:
Of course if they are swept, blow a 3-1 series lead, game #7 no shows, get run out of the building etc.

IMO Leaf fans will accept a round 1 loss if they compete and lose like they did against Washington or Boston but not what we saw against Columbus and Montreal.
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Isn't the time for moral victories over?
 
Nylanderthal said:
Jack has played so well when healthy this season he was an all-star. Fleury was exposed over Murray and given away to Chicago after being ran out of town for playoff failures and his representation sewering the organization in the midst of a playoff run. Also his numbers both raw and relative are worse than Soup.
All at the cost of our first our prized prospect and the inability to add Gio & Blackwell
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Fleury is the reigning vezina winner and a multiple cup champ. Vegas reaped what they sowed, Lehner is proving to be a shit goalie and Deboer is a shit coach.
The Podium said:
Lmao 3x cup champion

That’s a bit disingenuous don’t you think?
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Not at all. Won one as a starter, one where he was a backup, and in the 3rd one he never should've lost the starting job, but Pens management was already dead set on dumping him so they went back to their golden boy, who's terrible now.

Plus another finals in Vegas as a starter
 
JKG33 said:
Fleury is the reigning vezina winner and a multiple cup champ. Vegas reaped what they sowed, Lehner is proving to be a shit goalie and Deboer is a shit coach.


Not at all. Won one as a starter, one where he was a backup, and in the 3rd one he never should've lost the starting job, but Pens management was already dead set on dumping him so they went back to their golden boy, who's terrible now.

Plus another finals in Vegas as a starter
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So he won 1 cup as a starter
 
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JKG33 said:
I love Campbell, but Fleury is a 3x cup champion and reigning Vezina winner. Campbell had 2 good seasons as a backup and a couple months as an above average starter. That's just not a fair comparison.
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This year they're basically the same, I also LOVE Fleury but his post season save % is pretty poor each year other than 2 of those 3 and the first Vegas year. I would've been willing to give a 2nd for him as an insurance policy, but he is getting old. Also, no guarantee he was willing to come here. The rumoured 1st+ was a lot for a guy playing similar to Jack. Tough move to make, don't begrudge it either way. I like the price Minny paid for Fleury in the end.

I was really just aiming to point out that Jack's year isn't that bad IF people are comparing him to Fleury, not trying to shit on Fleury. I think both are among the most likeable personalities in the league. I think it's a fair comparison using recency, but that's part of evaluation and opinions, everyone does it differently and values different things.
 
JKG33 said:
Fleury is the reigning vezina winner and a multiple cup champ. Vegas reaped what they sowed, Lehner is proving to be a shit goalie and Deboer is a shit coach.
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Lehner was a great goalie before this year, goalies just tend to fall off the map a lot of the time for random reasons, and inexplicable time periods, see Campbell in 2022, Matt Murray, Jordan Binnington, Lehner, Carey Price at weird times, even Fleury himself from 2018 to 2020 was not a very good goalie and then bounced back out of nowhere last year.

Goalies are so weird.
 
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hockeynorth said:
This year they're basically the same, I also LOVE Fleury but his post season save % is pretty poor each year other than 2 of those 3 and the first Vegas year. I would've been willing to give a 2nd for him as an insurance policy, but he is getting old. Also, no guarantee he was willing to come here. The rumoured 1st+ was a lot for a guy playing similar to Jack. Tough move to make, don't begrudge it either way. I like the price Minny paid for Fleury in the end.

I was really just aiming to point out that Jack's year isn't that bad IF people are comparing him to Fleury, not trying to shit on Fleury. I think both are among the most likeable personalities in the league. I think it's a fair comparison using recency, but that's part of evaluation and opinions, everyone does it differently and values different things.
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I doubt Fleury wanted to come to this market. And there's no argument from me that his playoff performances have been wildly inconsistent. But the highs are definitely worth it, and he's been to the finals 5 times. That experience is rare
 
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JKG33 said:
I doubt Fleury wanted to come to this market. And there's no argument from me that his playoff performances have been wildly inconsistent. But the highs are definitely worth it, and he's been to the finals 5 times. That experience is rare
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His experience is definitely amazing, even in a backup role. I just personally believe his playoff swings made the 1st round pick price unappetizing, but had we landed him for a 1st conditional on a cup win I'd have had no complaints.
 
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hockeynorth said:
Lehner was a great goalie before this year, goalies just tend to fall off the map a lot of the time for random reasons, and inexplicable time periods, see Campbell in 2022, Matt Murray, Jordan Binnington, Lehner, Carey Price at weird times, even Fleury himself from 2018 to 2020 was not a very good goalie and then bounced back out of nowhere last year.

Goalies are so weird.
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Lehner is the most unathletic goalie I've seen since the '90s. I haven't tracked his bio over the years but it looks like he puts on more weight every offseason and gets progressively slower each season. For a goalie that wasn't laterally quick to begin with thats a huge issue.

Fwiw I didn't see the hype in Murray. He played well in his first cup, but he didn't deserve to be the starter for his second and his play has been downhill since that first cup.

hockeynorth said:
His experience is definitely amazing, even in a backup role. I just personally believe his playoff swings made the 1st round pick price unappetizing, but had we landed him for a 1st conditional on a cup win I'd have had no complaints.
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He'd be great in the room thats for sure. If I'm remembering correctly Muzzin is the only NHL regular with a cup win.

I'd rather lose with Fleury knowing Dubas actually tried to address the issue. Plus if he does shit the bed at least you've got another shot with Campbell behind him. The reality is now if Campbell shits the bed the team is f***ed, cause Mrazek and Kallgren aren't winning anything.
 
Again the Leafs have allowed the most goals against among the 8 playoff teams. Time and time again it's the same issue. Nobody has been able to fix this.
 
MAF is not better than Campbell. I know he is someone who can steal a series but he has not done it in a few years.
Not trading for him is the right call as I have faith in Campbell.
 
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The Podium said:
Classic hindsight verification.

Carolina isn’t some magic organization that can make an AHL goalie into a reliable starter. Especially compared to a good defensive team like the Leafs.

For someone who supposedly watches a lot of hockey it’s actually funny that you, not once, mentioned his inconsistency. The problem with Mrazek hasn’t been his body of work, but his lengthy hot and cold streaks. His career has been plagued with stretches where he is either the best or worst goalie in the league.

That doesn’t mean he isn’t a 0.910 tandem goalie having an awful season. Just like Ritchie wasn’t an ECHL caliber forward like he was while here.
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I'm not even going to respond to you anymore - you are very wise
 
The Podium said:
So he won 1 cup as a starter
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A decade and a half ago*
While posting a 0.908 SV%*

It's funny seeing people think that's any more relevant today than the four consecutive sub 0.900 playoff years he had following that.

Fleury's nice and all, but he wasn't having a great season and it's not like he's some playoff god. And there's no chance he was okay with moving to another country anyway.
 
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