Kyle Dubas discussion II

[Dekes For Days]

LOL shifting the goalposts. You dissed Lou winning cups in a non cap era so when asked how many playoff series Kyle and Lou have won in the last 4 years, it is moving the goalposts.

I didn't "diss Lou winning cups in a non cap era". I noted how cups from decades ago during an entirely different league environment has no relevance to Lou's GM performance in the present. Then you came in and shifted the goalposts to recent series wins for some reason, which is similarly irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Gabriel426]

I mean, they were average to above average in spending, but they were stacked with HOFers and one of the best goaltenders of all time. The main point is that team accomplishments from decades ago in a league where team-building looked very different doesn't have much relevance to how the GM operates in the present within the current environment.

They were average in spending at best. I also would not say they were stacked with HOFers, more like 3-5. The current Leafs probably have more than that esp if you add Spezza and Gio(even though thats a bit unfair).
Thats like saying Mario, Orr, Wayne and Howe's numbers means very different than AM, Ovie, Sid, and McDavid because they play in different eras.
As for team building, I really don't think it changed that much. It all starts with draft and development. The top players on each team are pretty much drafted by the team or developed by the same team with the exception of Vegas, ROR with Blues, JT with Leafs and a few others. This part of team building didn't change. The only part that changed is teams can't hold on to their own talented players if they have too many. Like the Hawks back in their Cup runs, or TB now or even the Leafs with AJ, Kap, Brown and Hyman.
Lou deserves credits for what he had accomplished and they were not flukes.
Giving credits to Lou doesn't mean discrediting Dubas.

 

[Dekes For Days]

They were average in spending at best.

According to Wikipedia, they were 15th in 2000, and 8th in 2003. Average to above average, like I said.

I also would not say they were stacked with HOFers, more like 3-5.

That's kind of a contradictory sentence, but regardless, the point was that whatever their spending was, it wasn't really a barrier. It's not like Lou was forced into some ragtag group of misfits that fought their way to the cup through masterful GM moves. We're getting pretty far from the main point here too.

Thats like saying Mario, Orr, Wayne and Howe's numbers means very different than AM, Ovie, Sid, and McDavid because they play in different eras.

I don't really understand your analogy, but also, the raw numbers of these players do mean different things because of the eras they played in...

As for team building, I really don't think it changed that much.

It's changed quite a bit relative to pre-cap times. Cap management is such a big part of a GM's job.

Lou deserves credits for what he had accomplished and they were not flukes.

I never said they were flukes. I said they have no relevance to what he's doing today. He won a cup 20 years ago. Cool. I want a competent GM today. That tells me nothing about how competent he is today. It doesn't even illustrate all that much about his competence back then, but that's a different discussion.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

first i'm thrilled at the season we're having and discussing Dubies moves is not being negative

there's few if any magically GM's that can turn crap into gold , all make good and bad moves and unless they get hired to an expansion team they're forced to take over the hand there predecessors were playing for good or bad

i was a tank and draft person when i looked at where this team was , i'm not going to give any GM praise for bottoming out and winning a lottery but i will give Lou props for doing a good job of tearing it down and accumulating assets without having to take long term anchors back , i will also give him props for where he left the team cap wise overall

so now i'll move on to Dubas , didn't like the JT signing nor the deals to M and M , didn;t like how he low balled and extended Willies negotiations , his drafts could be very good , we'll see , the problem with them is there's too much of the same type of prospects

up until this year he kept acquiring pieces without them being good fits , he has a bit of a spam mentality in that he likes to sign a large amount of fringe players and hope something sticks which is fine because most you can bury and don't affect the cap

Bunting has panned out and Kampf has came as advertised , he'd be better on the 4th line but the third line works well so no complaints . I was always high on Mik so good on Dubas for getting him to sign here . I never crapped on Engvall since i don't expect some perfect player at his cap hit or where he was drafted and he's started to play very well .

Gio was a good deadline move , he didn't come cheap but he fits well and still has gas in the tank , Baboska ain't much of a player but he was a needed depth piece and has added to the team .

basically it's M and M upping there games to elite level and the teams pieces better suited to support them which has given us the season we're enjoying

so when i keep reading how some want to heap praise on Dubie and crap on everyone that cam before him like somehow he waived his magic wand and turned crap into gold i just try to give a different view point

This is probably the best post I've seen you make, honestly. A lot of your posts are usually like someone else said, "snarky" and full of stuff like Dubas is a bitch or just only pointing to negative or even making false narratives. We can have a discussion and be able to acknowledge the good and bad of Dubas, Lou or whoever.

Most of the stuff you mentioned here in this post I would say we are on the same page.

I was fine with going after Tavares. The AAV was definitely more than his worth, but that's what happens when a #1C in his prime and is the best FA in a long time, hits the open market.

The AM signing I actually had 0 issue then and don't have an issue now. Do I wish it was for 8 years? Yeah it isn't nearly as big a deal as several posters here have made about it as there has been many comparables posted that had similar terms and cap hit %.

I have no issue with how the Nylander negotiation went on Dubas' end. I blame it on Willy's end as his ask and comparable was ridiculous and his dad was notorious as one of the worst players in history when it came to holding out in negotiations. We ended up getting him signed to an AAV that was fair for both sides imo at the time and is looking like a steal now.

The Marner negotiations is the one that I had an issue with and I blame both sides. Marner and obviously his dad were a huge problem and the fact that they were completely ignoring his comparables and were just going after the Matthews money was ridiculous. In the end it looks like Dubas was the one that caved on it. I know we've discussed this one before and I still think he is pretty much worth the money as he is one of probably the top 5 wingers/playmakers in the game but he needs to stop being a no show in the playoffs. I do wish we had got him around 9.5 though.

As for the drafting, I would agree with the too many of one type of player but I completely support Dubas and Co. philosophy of going for BPA at every pick. It's the reason our pool is so deep and many of them would go higher In In redraft. We are exploiting the fact that there too many GMs out there still stuck in some old ways (like in moneyball) and we are managing to find better talent. I wish we had more Knies types in our pool or some Braden Schneider types on the backend but again is support going after players with higher potential and if you have a surplus of high end talent, we can trade it for needs.

I do defend Dubas quite a bit mostly because I usually just reply to people who are making false claims. I have criticized a number of his moves on here but the difference between myself and other posters on here who bash him is I don't think every little thing is a fireable offense or just don't think it's that big a deal in general.

I am one who brings up Lou quite a bit. The reason being, is that there are a number of posters here who claim that we would be in better shape if he was still in charge. For example, if someone says we would be in better shape cap wise or would've got the big 3 to lower cap hits,I would point out the fact the Islanders have been in cap hell and have no way to get out of it and that he overpays the wrong types of players like Marleau and pretty much every player in the Islanders forward group.

Lou did some good here but he also screwed us a bit with some moves. Dubas has had his fair share of screw ups but I see us trending in the right direction despite those screw ups and I see high potential for the good that he is doing. His lack of playoff success have some to do with his moves/non moves but I mostly blame the players as it's their job to execute and get it done on the ice. Things like Kadri getting suspended, matthews and marner disappearing for a few games, Tavares and Muzzin getting injured, defensive ***kups like Dermott doing spinoramas and giving the puck away in OT and our goalies shitting the bed in game 7s aren't on the GM or coach. The way i see it Dubas has been setting the team up for success and the players keep finding ways to ***k it up. There is no reason this roster should've lost to either Montreal or Colombus

 

[Gary Nylund]

This is probably the best post I've seen you make, honestly. A lot of your posts are usually like someone else said, "snarky" and full of stuff like Dubas is a bitch or just only pointing to negative or even making false narratives. We can have a discussion and be able to acknowledge the good and bad of Dubas, Lou or whoever.

Most of the stuff you mentioned here in this post I would say we are on the same page.

I was fine with going after Tavares. The AAV was definitely more than his worth, but that's what happens when a #1C in his prime and is the best FA in a long time, hits the open market.

The AM signing I actually had 0 issue then and don't have an issue now. Do I wish it was for 8 years? Yeah it isn't nearly as big a deal as several posters here have made about it as there has been many comparables posted that had similar terms and cap hit %.

I have no issue with how the Nylander negotiation went on Dubas' end. I blame it on Willy's end as his ask and comparable was ridiculous and his dad was notorious as one of the worst players in history when it came to holding out in negotiations. We ended up getting him signed to an AAV that was fair for both sides imo at the time and is looking like a steal now.

The Marner negotiations is the one that I had an issue with and I blame both sides. Marner and obviously his dad were a huge problem and the fact that they were completely ignoring his comparables and were just going after the Matthews money was ridiculous. In the end it looks like Dubas was the one that caved on it. I know we've discussed this one before and I still think he is pretty much worth the money as he is one of probably the top 5 wingers/playmakers in the game but he needs to stop being a no show in the playoffs. I do wish we had got him around 9.5 though.

As for the drafting, I would agree with the too many of one type of player but I completely support Dubas and Co. philosophy of going for BPA at every pick. It's the reason our pool is so deep and many of them would go higher In In redraft. We are exploiting the fact that there too many GMs out there still stuck in some old ways (like in moneyball) and we are managing to find better talent. I wish we had more Knies types in our pool or some Braden Schneider types on the backend but again is support going after players with higher potential and if you have a surplus of high end talent, we can trade it for needs.

I do defend Dubas quite a bit mostly because I usually just reply to people who are making false claims. I have criticized a number of his moves on here but the difference between myself and other posters on here who bash him is I don't think every little thing is a fireable offense or just don't think it's that big a deal in general.

I am one who brings up Lou quite a bit. The reason being, is that there are a number of posters here who claim that we would be in better shape if he was still in charge. For example, if someone says we would be in better shape cap wise or would've got the big 3 to lower cap hits,I would point out the fact the Islanders have been in cap hell and have no way to get out of it and that he overpays the wrong types of players like Marleau and pretty much every player in the Islanders forward group.

Lou did some good here but he also screwed us a bit with some moves. Dubas has had his fair share of screw ups but I see us trending in the right direction despite those screw ups and I see high potential for the good that he is doing. His lack of playoff success have some to do with his moves/non moves but I mostly blame the players as it's their job to execute and get it done on the ice. Things like Kadri getting suspended, matthews and marner disappearing for a few games, Tavares and Muzzin getting injured, defensive ***kups like Dermott doing spinoramas and giving the puck away in OT and our goalies shitting the bed in game 7s aren't on the GM or coach. The way i see it Dubas has been setting the team up for success and the players keep finding ways to ***k it up. There is no reason this roster should've lost to either Montreal or Colombus

Great post! I'd like to think I could have written this post if I only had the energy and the motivation to write lengthy thoughtful posts like this more often. Nicely done!

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Remind me again how many cups our rich franchise won decades ago in an entirely different NHL with no cap while Lou won 2 cups for a budget team that Wayne called a Mickey Mouse franchise ? Amazing how some refuse to give Lou credit for winning two cups when we have not been able to win one since Confederation. Embarassing.

He gets full credit for his Cups. It's those pesky close to 2 decades since when the entire game changed that's the issue. Like Fletcher.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Probably trolling those that give Lou some credit while he was GM. Amazing how many minions as francis called them pile on.

Makes me wonder, did Lou have/need a group of boomers/dinos that defended his every move while he was GM of the Leafs ?? If he did, have those posters moved to the Isles board ??

One for sure did

 

[Gary Nylund]

He gets full credit for his Cups. It's those pesky close to 2 decades since when the entire game changed that's the issue. Like Fletcher.

Well played. Bazinga!

 

[IPS]

Anyone denying the extremism on both sides is out to lunch.

Dubites who won't even concede something like the Marchment trade as being a wrong move is unadulterated extremism at its finest.

And the people who shit on everything Dubas does and bash him for things like wearing glasses or being young is similar extremism.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Marner's deal was more than just high, it was absolutely shocking IMO. I was driving when I heard on the radio and was lucky I didn't read end somebody.

Fair point about Zaitsev. Lou, like Dubas, and like every other GM in history did some good stuff, and also some stuff that was not so good. Z's deal came later though correct? And that was before flat cap so inflation mitigates those numbers, not a lot but at least a little bit.

Good question about Kadri. I said a few months ago already that his next contract is probably the most intriguing question for the upcoming off-season (honorable mention to Johnny hockey).

As I said, personally I was guessing $8.5 before he put up 94 points (to me that was based on his trending and such). People may not remember but I was the one who pointed out that his first time hitting point per game over an 82 game stretch (spanning two seasons) occurred with 75% of the time coming with Kadri (as opposed to those suggesting he was a product of Tavares). For me once he did the 94 (almost no one has done that on ELC), I figured we'd do well if we got him at $9.5. It's also hard to say how much you can put into it but it was rumoured he was pissed at Lou and of course we all know about what Babcock did to him. My only real disappointment on the contract side is that IMO the front load should have dropped the values. By the same token, for the first time in like 30 years we have the RIGHT people being highly paid. One of the few teams that doesn't have tough to move contracts. It would be nice if next time around the stars reciprocate on how well they have been treated by current management. If there's one thing no one can deny, it's that Kyle has really made this an organization that cares for its employees.

On Kadri, I don't think he will command as much as he could. Where it is one exceptional season, someone really has to stick their neck out to assume it's the norm. Also the flat cap thing will hurt him.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Oh, I forgot we want the President’s Trophy instead of the Stanley Cup.

If the alternative is lesser seasons and heading in the long term direction of Lou run teams, sign me up!

 

[Gabriel426]

According to Wikipedia, they were 15th in 2000, and 8th in 2003. Average to above average, like I said.

That's kind of a contradictory sentence, but regardless, the point was that whatever their spending was, it wasn't really a barrier. It's not like Lou was forced into some ragtag group of misfits that fought their way to the cup through masterful GM moves. We're getting pretty far from the main point here too.

I don't really understand your analogy, but also, the raw numbers of these players do mean different things because of the eras they played in...

It's changed quite a bit relative to pre-cap times. Cap management is such a big part of a GM's job.

I never said they were flukes. I said they have no relevance to what he's doing today. He won a cup 20 years ago. Cool. I want a competent GM today. That tells me nothing about how competent he is today. It doesn't even illustrate all that much about his competence back then, but that's a different discussion.

Anyway, the point is Devils didn't outspend the rest of the league to win Cups.

Lou is still a good GM. What he had done with the Islanders is pretty good considering two Conf Finals in the past 4 years. They struggled this year but whose to say they won't dominate the league next season.

 

[Leaf Fans]

and this is all well and good but has nothing to do with the discussion me and Zeke were having

I know. It is about the question you asked me about Zeke.

 

[ToneDog]

As I said, personally I was guessing $8.5 before he put up 94 points (to me that was based on his trending and such). People may not remember but I was the one who pointed out that his first time hitting point per game over an 82 game stretch (spanning two seasons) occurred with 75% of the time coming with Kadri (as opposed to those suggesting he was a product of Tavares). For me once he did the 94 (almost no one has done that on ELC), I figured we'd do well if we got him at $9.5. It's also hard to say how much you can put into it but it was rumoured he was pissed at Lou and of course we all know about what Babcock did to him. My only real disappointment on the contract side is that IMO the front load should have dropped the values. By the same token, for the first time in like 30 years we have the RIGHT people being highly paid. One of the few teams that doesn't have tough to move contracts. It would be nice if next time around the stars reciprocate on how well they have been treated by current management. If there's one thing no one can deny, it's that Kyle has really made this an organization that cares for its employees.

On Kadri, I don't think he will command as much as he could. Where it is one exceptional season, someone really has to stick their neck out to assume it's the norm. Also the flat cap thing will hurt him.

I think a team can afford to overpay it's franchise players. The problem is you can't pay too many (thanks to Gary). Without the Tavares cap hit, I think you don't hear too much complaining about the Marner and Matty's deals. Once you paid JT $11m, I think you had to bridge one of 16 or 34. The flat cap then screwed us royally.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Great post! I'd like to think I could have written this post if I only had the energy and the motivation to write lengthy thoughtful posts like this more often. Nicely done!

Thanks. I didn't realize how long it was til I hit post lol.

I like to try and show both sides to each argument and I try to acknowledge every point made.

 

[Dreakmur]

Probably trolling those that give Lou some credit while he was GM. Amazing how many minions as francis called them pile on.

Makes me wonder, did Lou have/need a group of boomers/dinos that defended his every move while he was GM of the Leafs ?? If he did, have those posters moved to the Isles board ??

I mean there's definitely some idiots that do defend everything Lou did too. Dubas isn't the only GM with an army of message board shills.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Anyway, the point is Devils didn't outspend the rest of the league to win Cups.

Nobody ever said they did.

Lou is still a good GM.

He's not though. Which is why people can only point to the Islander's mild playoff successes that were very minimally about Lou, instead of talking about what Lou has actually done.

If you were looking for somebody to tear down a team, or you were looking for somebody to strictly find you a goalie, maybe you could argue that Lou would be capable, but he hasn't shown an ability to build towards sustainable success in the cap era.

 

[conFABulator]

Organization has mostly been completely purged of anything brought in during Lou’s time here aside from Liljegren and Matthews. Right down to development and scouting staff. All either brought in when Shanny got here, while Dubas was co-GM, or after Lou left.

Surprised me a little to look through our organization and barely find evidence he was here.

This surprised me a bit too, thanks for calling this out. I had just assumed that Lou had more of his fingerprints on this team. Obviously, my assumption was wrong.

I guess because people often talk about the great group that Dubas "inherited". I took that to give Lou more credit than he deserves.

 

[conFABulator]

I’m sure like 99.9% of Leaf fans I couldn’t care less what kind of job he’s doing on the Island.

Possibly, but that would mean 0.1% is loud and relentless about it.

 

[deprw]

Remind me again how many cups our rich franchise won decades ago in an entirely different NHL with no cap while Lou won 2 cups for a budget team that Wayne called a Mickey Mouse franchise ? Amazing how some refuse to give Lou credit for winning two cups when we have not been able to win one since Confederation. Embarassing.

People are discussing about Lou that left Devils. Not as celebrated legend he is, but as washed out long overdue GM. Devils fans didn't like him that much when he left. After salary cap came he was mediocre and Devils drafting was horrendous for years during Lou years.

I think he redeemed himself here a bit by changing our culture, which is something we should give him lots of credit. I hated Marleau's contract but I think culture wise that was good move, but made Lou way by overpaying a veteran.

In NYI he showed he can be relevant, but did mess their cap and gave away top2 dman because of cap troubles. Something that isn't looking good on any GMs resume.

Lou is and will always be a legend, because what he accomplished with Devils. During his prime he was maybe best in the business. You can't take that away, but if you choose to work 35 years in this business. People will remember those last 15 years better than those first 20 years.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Rebuilding is not tanking. We were to good to tank, yes, but that doesn’t mean we we’re done with the development phase.

Dubas tried to fast-track it and you’ve witnessed the results.

The record stetting season?

 

[Leaf Fans]

Remind us how many playoff series wins Kyle and Lou have in the past 4 years ?? You know in an era that counts.

I am guessing 6?

 

[Leaf Fans]

Oh, I forgot we want the President’s Trophy instead of the Stanley Cup.

You might want that, but not me.

 

[Menzinger]

Rebuilding is not tanking. We were to good to tank, yes, but that doesn’t mean we we’re done with the development phase.

Dubas tried to fast-track it and you’ve witnessed the results.

Though his approach has been no different from Lou's in terms of patience/fast tracking (both men obviously have differences in other areas)

In terms of the big pictures, both GMs focused on free agents (Marleau, Tavares, ect) and trading picks at the tdl for win now veteran players.

The Leafs "rebuild" essentially ended the moment Matthews name was called at the draft.

 

[TMLegend]

The Leafs "rebuild" essentially ended the moment Matthews name was called at the draft.

So the team that finished dead last in the 2015-16 season was done rebuilding the moment they landed the 1st overall pick in the 16 draft? Yeah, that doesn't add up.

Fact is they greatly exceeded expectations in 16-17. The rest of it is just revisionist history.