Kyle Dubas discussion II

[BertCorbeau]

Dubas has lots of good and lots of bad, the regular season portion of his tenure would have to be considered a pretty overwhelming success at least the past 2 seasons.

The playoffs have been an almost unmitigated disaster with the loss to Monteal arguably the worst in franchise history.

He's definitely shown that he's not strictly a numbers guy when it comes to roster construction and i don't think he's doing a bad job, but this soft spineless core that costs 40 million dollars has to be the hill he dies imo on if there's another first round loss and he can't accept that playoff hockey isn't played the way he thinks it should be and a change is needed.

The argument that you can't trade Nylander because he's a good player that has actual trade value is just stupid.

Probably the best take I’ve read lately

 

[Stamkos4life]

Sounds like you already know all the players he acquired. Now you need to learn that there’s more to building a team than just adding new players.

Playoff records last 3 years

Lou: 5 series wins plus a qualifier round win.

Dubas: 0 series wins and lost in the qualifier round.

Dubas fan boys will tell us over and over again how each and every player he trades for / signs is amazing but that every move Lou makes is trash.

Yet the "trash" gm has multiple series wins while the "amazing" gm has zero

This has been going on for years. At this point, the dubas cult has absolutely no credibility.

 

[ACC1224]

Dubas has lots of good and lots of bad, the regular season portion of his tenure would have to be considered a pretty overwhelming success at least the past 2 seasons.

The playoffs have been an almost unmitigated disaster with the loss to Monteal arguably the worst in franchise history.

He's definitely shown that he's not strictly a numbers guy when it comes to roster construction and i don't think he's doing a bad job, but this soft spineless core that costs 40 million dollars has to be the hill he dies imo on if there's another first round loss and he can't accept that playoff hockey isn't played the way he thinks it should be and a change is needed.

The argument that you can't trade Nylander because he's a good player that has actual trade value is just stupid.

Good post, agree with that.

 

[Dreakmur]

You're right I forgot the critical element of making your players shave, that must be the real secret to success.

Going into the playoffs with a RHD of Hainsey-Zaitsev-Polak/Carrick two years in a row wasn't the problem, it was their stubble. You couldn't solve the problem of having the worst RHD in the league with a trade or signing, that's impossible! The only way to fix that was with the intangible art of "team building" without making any transactions of note other than giving away 2nds for 4th line Cs.

Why did the team get better every year?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Please, all I'm asking for is some highlights of good players Lou has acquired in the past 10 years, surely this must be an easy thing to show me for such a good GM. Just one legitimate top line/top pair player in 10 years, that's not unreasonable to ask right? It can't be that Hainsey/Zaitsev and Pageau/Marleau are the best skaters he acquired since 2012 can it?

In 2018, Dubas took control of a 105 point team (6th overall) and Lou took control over a 80 point team (missed the playoffs). Lou also lost his best player to the Dubas for nothing in return, yet his team has won 5 playoff rounds since then. All I'm asking for is some highlights of playoff success Dubas has added to his resume. Surely this must be an easy thing to show if Dubas is so much better than Lou, that's not unreasonable to ask right? It can't be that that he hasn't won even one series during his tenure can it?

Seriously though, if you have this insatiable desire to discuss Lou, take it over to the NYI board or perhaps the main boards. He hasn't been part of this organization in a long time, give it a rest already.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Playoff records last 3 years

Lou: 5 series wins plus a qualifier round win.

Dubas: 0 series wins and lost in the qualifier round.

Dubas fan boys will tell us over and over again how each and every player he trades for / signs is amazing but that every move Lou makes is trash.

Yet the "trash" gm has multiple series wins while the "amazing" gm has zero

This has been going on for years. At this point, the dubas cult has absolutely no credibility.

Not only do they not have credibility; the don't have existence.

 

[deprw]

Dubas has lots of good and lots of bad, the regular season portion of his tenure would have to be considered a pretty overwhelming success at least the past 2 seasons.

The playoffs have been an almost unmitigated disaster with the loss to Monteal arguably the worst in franchise history.

He's definitely shown that he's not strictly a numbers guy when it comes to roster construction and i don't think he's doing a bad job, but this soft spineless core that costs 40 million dollars has to be the hill he dies imo on if there's another first round loss and he can't accept that playoff hockey isn't played the way he thinks it should be and a change is needed.

The argument that you can't trade Nylander because he's a good player that has actual trade value is just stupid.

Well, if we think about last summer. What message would you send to our core when you ship out the only playoff performer? Nylander was our best forward in that series and playoff performer in a way Dubas see how it's meant to be played.

I think we were trashing on Marner more than anyone else, but gave him a chance and to this moment it's looking like it's right decision. I would do mental and Google exercise where you try to find Stanley Cup winning teams that traded away PPG forwards from their core and ended up being better team. Usually you go after those.

About next summer, which way value of Marner or Nylander has gone based on this season? I'd say both are exceeding their value, so in that sense it was right decision and decision about moving either player is better suited for summer 2022 or after.

I would trust Dubas doing good old hockey trade, but let's see playoffs first.

 

[ACC1224]

Seriously though, if you have this insatiable desire to discuss Lou, take it over to the NYI board or perhaps the main boards. He hasn't been part of this organization in a long time, give it a rest already.

This.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Well, if we think about last summer. What message would you send to our core when you ship out the only playoff performer? Nylander was our best forward in that series and playoff performer in a way Dubas see how it's meant to be played.

I think we were trashing on Marner more than anyone else, but gave him a chance and to this moment it's looking like it's right decision. I would do mental and Google exercise where you try to find Stanley Cup winning teams that traded away PPG forwards from their core and ended up being better team. Usually you go after those.

About next summer, which way value of Marner or Nylander has gone based on this season? I'd say both are exceeding their value, so in that sense it was right decision and decision about moving either player is better suited for summer 2022 or after.

I would trust Dubas doing good old hockey trade, but let's see playoffs first.

I would also say let's see playoffs first before we decide if not moving Marner or Nylander was the right call.

 

[ToneDog]

I would also say let's see playoffs first before we decide if not moving Marner or Nylander was the right call.

We have virtually zero grit in our top 9. We need a couple of more Buntings or Cirellis. Maybe Knies can be one. Sorry Kyle and Shanny, no team is going to allow another team to play shinny against them in the playoffs. Changing the mix of the top 9 is a challenge unless they can move Tavares and most of his cap hit.

On a side note, Matthew Ratchuk scored his 40th goal and 100th point last night.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Please, all I'm asking for is some highlights of good players Lou has acquired in the past 10 years, surely this must be an easy thing to show me for such a good GM.

It's really quite telling that nobody can actually point to anything notable that Lou has done. And now suddenly, all of the people who loved talking about Lou no longer want to talk about Lou anymore - what a surprise! Suddenly, GMing isn't about the players you acquire, or the moves you make. Lou's secret is just existing. He goes from team to team and lets them bask in the rays from his immaculate presence. Silly other GMs. Actually doing things to help their team. Bunch of chumps.

 

[deprw]

I would also say let's see playoffs first before we decide if not moving Marner or Nylander was the right call.

Fair point. I don't see lots of good things in decision to trade player in low point (Marner) or trade away player that was your main performer in the playoffs (Nylander). I have argued this last summer, that decision about those players is better left to next summer and it seems like that both have gained more value.

Seriously though, if you have this insatiable desire to discuss Lou, take it over to the NYI board or perhaps the main boards. He hasn't been part of this organization in a long time, give it a rest already.

This Lou debate have been here since he left, because of that 105 points season and then you have to consider his performance in NYI. I'll try not to continue it.

In any case both these franchises are in different phase of their evolution and you can really question our patience with our core and with our GM. Our core is still fairly young if you compare it to previous cup winners. When we add some experience that Lou has leaned on in NYI we're pissing on them being old and slow. Though I think as personal opinion, that we are trying to add some balance so we can have 30yo core pieces and younger core pieces. Tavares is important part of that with Rielly, Muzzin and Brodie.

This isn't NHL 22 where you trade Nylander for Tkachuk. What I try to focus on is improving and gaining value, because we are in win now mode. We try to keep our window open and usually you bleed assets and gain experience.

Piss on Dubas, core or our whole team, but if you compare us to Panthers, NYI or Lightning we have gained value during Dubas years under cap crunch. That allows us chance to keep building our team for this year or the next one.

That Canadiens loss still stings but I'll try to look into positives and keep my eyes open for playoffs. In any case winning playoff series shouldn't be the goal and only way to measure management.

 

[deprw]

We have virtually zero grit in our top 9. We need a couple of more Buntings or Cirellis. Maybe Knies can be one. Sorry Kyle and Shanny, no team is going to allow another team to play shinny against them in the playoffs. Changing the mix of the top 9 is a challenge unless they can move Tavares and most of his cap hit.

On a side note, Matthew Ratchuk scored his 40th goal and 100th point last night.

I don't believe there is formula for winning the Stanley Cup. 17-18 Penguins are way different team than 18-19 Blues or 19-20 Lightning. First had mostly skill and perseverance, second was physical and blue collar and third was fast, skillful and hard to play against.

Last season our "shinny skill guys" Nylander and Kerfoot were our best performers. We have more skill and grit now than last year and I'd say also perseverance.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Fair point. I don't see lots of good things in decision to trade player in low point (Marner) or trade away player that was your main performer in the playoffs (Nylander). I have argued this last summer, that decision about those players is better left to next summer and it seems like that both have gained more value.


This Lou debate have been here since he left, because of that 105 points season and then you have to consider his performance in NYI. I'll try not to continue it.

In any case both these franchises are in different phase of their evolution and you can really question our patience with our core and with our GM. Our core is still fairly young if you compare it to previous cup winners. When we add some experience that Lou has leaned on in NYI we're pissing on them being old and slow. Though I think as personal opinion, that we are trying to add some balance so we can have 30yo core pieces and younger core pieces. Tavares is important part of that with Rielly, Muzzin and Brodie.

This isn't NHL 22 where you trade Nylander for Tkachuk. What I try to focus on is improving and gaining value, because we are in win now mode. We try to keep our window open and usually you bleed assets and gain experience.

Piss on Dubas, core or our whole team, but if you compare us to Panthers, NYI or Lightning we have gained value during Dubas years under cap crunch. That allows us chance to keep building our team for this year or the next one.

That Canadiens loss still stings but I'll try to look into positives and keep my eyes open for playoffs. In any case winning playoff series shouldn't be the goal and only way to measure management.

Sure, all that makes sense and is completely reasonable. If we lay another egg in the playoffs though, then it becomes just a little bit harder to say we're doing the right thing by staying the course. Winning playoff series isn't the only goal or the only way to measure management, but winning the cup is the ultimate goal and winning series is the way to do that so while it's not the only thing to measure, it is the most important thing to measure and as the playoff failures pile up, the sample size keeps getting bigger so the small sample size argument loses more and more credibility. Maybe this spring the narrative finally changes, we'll see.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I don't believe there is formula for winning the Stanley Cup. 17-18 Penguins are way different team than 18-19 Blues or 19-20 Lightning. First had mostly skill and perseverance, second was physical and blue collar and third was fast, skillful and hard to play against.

Last season our "shinny skill guys" Nylander and Kerfoot were our best performers. We have more skill and grit now than last year and I'd say also perseverance.

100% agree - there is no one formula. It does seem like we have more grit and are better balanced, better positioned to play any type of game and the only major area of concern is in net. Unfortunately, that is also the most important position on the team so if that doesn't hold up, that'll likely enough to sink us against a quality opponent and unfortunately, whoever we face in the 1st round will be a quality opponent.

 

[Dekes For Days]

When Matthews’ name was called, we had 6 current players in the organization.

Team rosters shift over the course of 6 years, regardless of what stage your team is in. It doesn't change the fact that our approach changed then, and the rebuild ended then, long before 2018.

Why did the team get better every year?

The team point total rose in 2016-2017 primarily because one of the best groups of ELC talent seen in the cap era was injected into the NHL team.
The team point total rose in 2017-2018 primarily because the team won a bunch of shootout coin flips, and the mid-30s journeyman backup that we claimed off waivers when Lou's original backup selection failed horribly popped off for a Vezina-level performance he had and would never come close to again.

We didn't actually get better in 2017-2018 in any notable or sustainable way, and Lou really did nothing to mitigate the decline he had set up for post-2017/2018, with existing depth set to walk, ELCs running out, cap anchors with term, and a prospect pipeline that was left barren and unreplenished.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I don't believe there is formula for winning the Stanley Cup.

You're correct. There is no magic formula, as much as some people like to pretend there is to put down this team because they don't perfectly align with their personal preferences for playstyle. Cups have been won with every style and make-up of team imaginable. Funny thing is, most cup winners have been labeled playoff chokers that didn't have the right mix, core, or playstyle, right before they won.

 

[makbeer]

Playoff records last 3 years

Lou: 5 series wins plus a qualifier round win.

Dubas: 0 series wins and lost in the qualifier round.

Dubas fan boys will tell us over and over again how each and every player he trades for / signs is amazing but that every move Lou makes is trash.

Yet the "trash" gm has multiple series wins while the "amazing" gm has zero

This has been going on for years. At this point, the dubas cult has absolutely no credibility.

Lou always prioritises goaltending.

Dubas has made goaltending a budget position.

His job now rests solely on the gamble that Campbell will pull it together in time for the playoffs and stay healthy as well.

 

[killer1980]

Why wouldn’t it be his idea?

His stated philosophy has always been young, fast offensive players. My feeling is he has been forced to make changes he may or may not agree with.

 

[Dekes For Days]

His stated philosophy has always been young, fast offensive players.

That's simply not true.

 

[killer1980]

That's simply not true.

Kyle Dubas quote Toronto Star December 17, 2018, “We want to have skill, we want to be fast, and we want to be competitive. I don’t really think that the way that the league is going that having someone that can come in and fight or anything like that is going to change that. We’ve got a way that we want to play, and we’re just going to carry on with that. In the end, people will judge whether it was effective.”

 

[riffle]

A GM’s goal is to build the best team, not just acquire the best players. Roles and chemistry are important. I’m glad Kyle Dubas has started to figure that out.

Amen to your first sentence. Herb Brooks will always be memorable for saying he wasn't looking for the best players...he was looking for the right players.

The question is should the Leafs have been turned over to a "whiz kid" who didn't have this figured out years ago? How much is his on-the-job-training costing the Leafs in terms of wasted playoff years? How many wasted years do you watch before you say enough's enough? How did a guy like Shanahan who won Cups with the team he was on not recognize this?

I fully expect this thread to revisit the lack of a goalie move at the deadline several times over the next several weeks and months. Should the Wild make a long run, he's going to be hammered even more vigorously.

We all knew back at the deadline a deal should've been made, and it wasn't. When this team falls short, again, most will acknowledge then what should be acknowledged right now... Kyle failed us miserably in the goaltending department this season, and really since he's been here and that undoes a lot of the good he has done.

 

[notbias]

Kyle Dubas quote Toronto Star December 17, 2018, “We want to have skill, we want to be fast, and we want to be competitive. I don’t really think that the way that the league is going that having someone that can come in and fight or anything like that is going to change that. We’ve got a way that we want to play, and we’re just going to carry on with that. In the end, people will judge whether it was effective.”

skill, fast, competitive =/= young, fast, offensive

he also doesn't say he doesn't want tough players, he just wants a team with high end skill that is fast and competitive, like Florida, Colorado, Tampa, Carolina, you know, the good teams in the league.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Kyle Dubas quote Toronto Star December 17, 2018, “We want to have skill, we want to be fast, and we want to be competitive. I don’t really think that the way that the league is going that having someone that can come in and fight or anything like that is going to change that. We’ve got a way that we want to play, and we’re just going to carry on with that. In the end, people will judge whether it was effective.”

Did you think that's helping your argument or something? I'm not sure how you took that normal comment, and somehow twisted it to suggest that Dubas only cares about young, fast, offensive players, and ignores everything else unless forced by somebody else, even though what he actually says about team-building and his entire management history both with the Leafs and before the Leafs contradicts your claim.

 

[Apex Predator]

Lou always prioritises goaltending.

Dubas has made goaltending a budget position.

His job now rests solely on the gamble that Campbell will pull it together in time for the playoffs and stay healthy as well.

It’s looking like it’s going to be Toronto and Tampa. Campbell could pull it together play lights out and they still could lose the series. This is going to be a tough match up that you can’t fault them for losing in round 1 to Tampa.(Assuming they show up and play hard)If that happens then what?