keonsbitterness
Registered User
I have a dream......that one day a Dubas thread will not deteriorate into this.
I HAVE A DREAM!!!!
I HAVE A DREAM!!!!
Kyle Dubas discussion II
- Thread starter SprDaVE
- Start date
-
Work is still on-going to rebuild the site styling and features. Please report any issues you may experience so we can look into it. Click Here for Updates
- Status
Menzinger
Kessel4LadyByng
The funny thing too is Flurey is the Wilds backup right now. They've opted to mainly keep using Talbot whose been playing very well. Goalies are voodoo - and betting on Campbell returning to form could end up being the most logical move to make vs expending assets on an inflated trade market.
If Dubas' had traded a 1st + Knies for a backup I'd want to pull my hair out.
riffle
Registered User
William Nylander ranks where in hits/60 in this league? 944th? Yes, he's not soft?
Where do the Leafs rank in the category 88 ranks 944th? 24th in the league.
(For context: Colorado ranks one spot higher. We'll see how they do in playoff hockey. Manson should help.)
Kyle added Clifford and Simmonds when? And, why? He didn't want either guy. He said in a previous quote he wants tough guys who can play. Can Simmonds and Clifford play? Clifford scored his first goal of the season the other night. Simmonds has 1 goal since December. Neither guy can play. Kyle wants guys who can play filling the role of the tough guy. Now, Simmonds looked like he could still play when he got here, but that ain't this year. We were all hoping he'd be in the suite for the playoffs, and now we see we need him.
Nothing will ever change that our core is soft. Matthews, Marner, JT and Willy are not tough guys. These are not guys who you know have your back. Our core is a group of guys who like horses who run well on a fast-track that don't when the track gets muddy like it does in the playoffs.
We're both fans. Ask yourself how the Leafs are perceived around the league. Do you think other GMs view the Leafs as tough or soft? And, do you honestly see this team as more tough than soft? Really?
AllDay28
Registered User
- Oct 15, 2015
- 3,611
- 2,705
leafs go like 12-2, lose 1 game and people are freaking out again.
it's bordering on mental illness at this point.
it's bordering on mental illness at this point.
Looks like the boys are just waiting for the playoffs at this point.
Hardly anything to get worked up about. They know better than anyone the real games start in a couple weeks.
Nylanderthal
Registered User
- Jun 9, 2010
- 7,901
- 6,252
No wonder you have concussion issues, you think everything boils down to running over the other team, when in reality that’s not a big factor. Not backing down is a bigger factor and having the puck & more skill is an even bigger factor.
It’s tough to rack up the hitzzzzzzz when you always have the puck on your stick and are transitioning it up ice.
Nylanderthal
Registered User
- Jun 9, 2010
- 7,901
- 6,252
This is a really valid part as well. Imagine giving up Knies and a first for a guy to play over kallgren.
Not to mention Flowers history of using his representation to undermine the team while on a playoff run.
To go on a long run they’re going to need the calendar year 2021 jack Campbell, or better. I was loud and vocal about wanting a goalie at the deadline but none of the trades options that were moved would be considered an upgrade or even on par. Not to mention mrazek is due back at some point, and was playing better before this latest set back. I’d rather hold assets and ride what’s there. I’m glad our management isn’t as reactionary as some of us are, including myself
riffle
Registered User
Our goalie situation is garbage. Our starter is erratic as it gets both in his play and mentally. You trust someone like that to backstop you to a Stanley Cup? Yes, the randomness of hockey and all, but it's not sound thinking to believe Jack's carrying us to a Cup. What would it be based on other than randomness and or wishful thinking? And, further, who is #2, if/when Jack physically or mentally flames out? Yes, that is a problem that you can ignore but it won't go away.
Kyle certainly did know Sateri would be claimed. And, that isn't even the point of it. Harri Sateri was honestly going to be an answer? That was really the thinking?
The Fleury thing is well-documented. Yes, the leaked trade. Fleury isn't the only goalie in the league. Forsberg was said to be there for the taking. I'd be much more comfortable with him than anything we have in this organization. The excuse that someone wasn't available is nonsense. That is what your GM is for. To get guys who aren't available and make it happen. If you need something, you get something. Yes, there are limits, but when an issue is as glaring as it is for this team, in this critical year, you can't go into the playoffs with this situation feeling confident you're winning the Cup. Clearly, that is not a legit goal for this team in any real sense.
Yes, he bailed on the bad Ritchie acquisition and contract. A wise decision. Something he knew would haunt him and he did what he could to mitigate. Harri Sateri was the solution to the other sore thumb. He stood at the plate at the deadline knowing he had to get the runner on 3rd home for our goaltending and tried getting hit by a pitch so he didn't have to take a real swing. Harri Sateri. Honestly, Harri Sateri. Think about that. Instead, all these Kyleisms that many of us have grown tired of. We like our guys. We believe in... "x", "y", "z". Kyle never met a guy in his org he didn't love regardless of inability to play at this level.
One loss and the Leafs lack grit, they are soft… flows right back out.
It is a regular season game, heck even if this is the playoffs, it is one playoffs game, as long as they win the Series, who cares if they lose 8-1 in three games as long as they win the other four games in the series.
It is a regular season game, heck even if this is the playoffs, it is one playoffs game, as long as they win the Series, who cares if they lose 8-1 in three games as long as they win the other four games in the series.
riffle
Registered User
Hey, you've bought what the org is selling. I get it. I do not buy it. We have zero playoff success with this philosophy that you believe in. We'll see how it works out this time around. Maybe, it will be different. Do you honestly believe it will or are you just defending your GM?
ToneDog
56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
Bunting is the only "tough guy" in our top 9 and he is a lightweight. Therein lies the problem IMO. Ritchie was an attempt to add toughness to our top 9 but he failed miserably and that was that. If last night's Vasi shows up in the playoffs I don't like our odds.
Nylanderthal
Registered User
- Jun 9, 2010
- 7,901
- 6,252
About the clip you’re talking about directly? I believe skilled players like Willy should keep themselves available to play shifts as opposed to getting a third man in penalty on a nonsense altercation that happened after the whistle that really has no bearing on the outcome of the game itself.
Just because a player doesn't throw big crushing hits, it doesn't make them soft, and just because a team has a player like that on its roster, it doesn't make the team soft.
Yeah, look at all those soft teams around us - St Louis, Calgary, Colorado, Carolina, Minnesota, Vegas, Columbus, etc.
It's all so simple. We should all try to emulate 1st place Ottawa!
Never mind that the biggest dynasty in the cap era was a team that placed 24th, 29th, and 30th in that stat in the years they won.
He added Muzzin in his first year, he added Clifford in his 2nd year, he added Simmonds, Bogosian and Foligno in his 3rd year, he added Ritchie, Bunting, Lyubushkin and Clifford again in his 4th year, etc. And that's not even getting into the lower level guys like that, or the number of players he's acquired that exhibit other toughness qualities than the flashy face-punching and crushing hits.
He clearly did. That's why he acquired them.
Yes, Simmonds and Clifford bring other qualities than just face-punching.
Except the fact that it's not true.
It was not being tough last night. The first period was pretty much last year playoffs where Leafs seems to be in control
but continues to give up odd man rushes. If it was not for Kally, the game would have been wide open in the first period.
That’s something the Leafs as a whole need to work on.
I think the Leafs should sign Georges St. Pierre.
He can't play hockey but he has a great superman punch and would be the missing piece we need to win the Cup.
He can't play hockey but he has a great superman punch and would be the missing piece we need to win the Cup.
riffle
Registered User
Yeah, Willy was really going to be an imperative to keep on the ice down that many goals. The good will, no pun intended, of sticking up for your teammates is much less important than being available in that kind of a game.
To me, this is a type of wrongthink that exists in this fanbase. Always justifying and excusing the inexcusable and being dogmatic about it.
We both love our Leafs. I'm Kyle Bieksa and you are Jen Botterill and that's okay. Jen is much more aligned with what Kyle Dubas has been selling from his GM chair.
Can I ask you what you thought of Jason Spezza dropping the gloves vs. Columbus in the play in a few years back? I was very interested in the reaction to that by many who are just like you in the way you think on these issues. Spezza was hailed as a hero and people fawned all over him for standing up for his team and trying to turn the emotional tide. The I LOVE JASON SPEZZA train was really rolling. Were you one of those people shoveling coal or did you see that as Neanderthalish?
riffle
Registered User
He did acquire Kyle and Wayne after recalibrating his thinking seeing how inept his team was without that presence. He initially did not want players like them. I give him credit for realizing the error of his ways, but neither guy can play. As I mentioned, and you didn't respond to, Wayne has 1 goal since December and Clifford has one all season. Those guys will be necessary vs. Tampa. Who really wants to watch Wayne and Kyle play hockey? They aren't good players, but our core is so weak that we need the enforcer types to protect them. No shame in that, but it would be nice if it was acknowledged. It's factual. The funny thing is Willy and Auston should be tough guys but they don't play like it. Both act like they're trapped in Abruzzese's body when they aren't especially in Matthews case.Just because a player doesn't throw big crushing hits, it doesn't make them soft, and just because a team has a player like that on its roster, it doesn't make the team soft.
Yeah, look at all those soft teams around us - St Louis, Calgary, Colorado, Carolina, Minnesota, Vegas, Columbus, etc.
It's all so simple. We should all try to emulate 1st place Ottawa!
Never mind that the biggest dynasty in the cap era was a team that placed 24th, 29th, and 30th in that stat in the years they won.
He added Muzzin in his first year, he added Clifford in his 2nd year, he added Simmonds, Bogosian and Foligno in his 3rd year, he added Ritchie, Bunting, Lyubushkin and Clifford again in his 4th year, etc. And that's not even getting into the lower level guys like that, or the number of players he's acquired that exhibit other toughness qualities than the flashy face-punching and crushing hits.
He clearly did. That's why he acquired them.
Yes, Simmonds and Clifford bring other qualities than just face-punching.
Except the fact that it's not true.
Where'd Montreal rank in hits last season? That's such a tough one because this could all go away if only the Leafs had closed out a 3-1 series lead, but didn't. Now, you have to fight against losing to a team with superior physicality. Auston and Mitch were terrible vs. them last season. Why was that? There is a reason? Goalied? Of course, that had to be it. ONE goal between Auston and Mitch when it mattered. As a fan base we'll deify Matthews for scoring 58 in a regular season. Speak to how Mitch is now justifying a contract that last year was being impaled. What will these guys do when it matters? Both have produced very well in their careers vs. Tampa, but neither have seen Tampa in the playoffs. How you feeling about that?
The Dubas argument is fun. You have one side lauding him and promoting his greatness, while the other asks where are your results? The only results that can be pointed to are in the regular season or some perceived greatness of draft choices who've done nothing in the NHL.
Maybe, it's just me, but, perhaps, these dogmatic arguments regarding Kyle's greatness should be saved for when this team actually performs in the playoffs? That is all in favor of those who question Dubas. To me, when you look at the evidence on both sides of this argument, one side points to results and the other speaks to feelings. I love feelings as much as the next guy but the Leafs haven't left me with a very good one the last several years because the results aren't there.
my favorite part of this idiotic take is he is right around other noted ineffective players and terrible playoff players such as O'Reilly, Panarin, Saad, Fox, Kane, Gaudreau, and Kessel...
he's as soft as all them (some Conn Smythe winners in there)
riffle
Registered User
You got it right in the end after falsely equating terrible players to softness. These are two very distinct things.
Guys like Johnny Hockey and Patrick Kane are very soft players. Doesn't mean they can't put the puck in the net and are terrible players.
Why were you equating soft and terrible? Wasn't part of this at all.
I guess if you don't like that Willy is 944th in the NHL in a category that shows physicality/toughness move the argument to terrible players?
Is Willy soft? Yes, or no? Those are your options, not that he's not a terrible player.
You are saying the Leafs are a soft team due to hits, then point out Nylander... just pointing out lots of players are as soft or softer and have won the Cup and Conn Smythe.
Also, this may shock you, a high possession team hits less than a low possession team.
Minnesota is probably the toughest team in the league and is ranked 19th.
Not to mention, Muzzin being injured means fewer hits, Lub being acquired halfway through the year means fewer hits, Gio being acquired at the deadline means fewer hits.
I don't think your argument is very thought out honestly.
Also, this may shock you, a high possession team hits less than a low possession team.
Minnesota is probably the toughest team in the league and is ranked 19th.
Not to mention, Muzzin being injured means fewer hits, Lub being acquired halfway through the year means fewer hits, Gio being acquired at the deadline means fewer hits.
I don't think your argument is very thought out honestly.
riffle
Registered User
William Nylander was cited to me in a discussion about toughness. I responded to that argument with his standing in hits/60, where he ranks 944th. I was more than aware of what company that put him in. However, the argument is about softness. The question won't be answered because it is hard to bring yourself to a place to admit that if you're trying to fight against it. Just admit it. Type the words...William Nylander is a soft player and the Leafs are a soft team. Why is this hard?
Kyle Clifford and Wayne Simmonds are not soft players. Neither are good at hockey, but they can fight and will stick up for themselves and teammates. And, again, we were hoping we wouldn't need to see these guys play. Both are washed. Sadly, we're so soft we NEED these two fist pumpers to be in the lineup or we're going to get bullied in May. Where do I have it wrong?
riffle
Registered User
- Status
Ad
Upcoming events
-
-
-
-
Beanpot Boston University vs Harvard - TD Garden, BostonWagers: 1Staked: $100.00Event closes- Updated:
-
Beanpot Boston College vs Northeastern - TD Garden, BostonWagers: 1Staked: $100.00Event closes - 2 days from now- Updated: