Kyle Dubas discussion II

[deprw]

Fleury was shitty option, because he isn't anything special and was expensive piece to acquire. In that situation we had healthy Mrazek and Campbell down for two weeks. Fleury isn't better option in the playoffs than healthy Campbell.

I don't really get why people piss on Nylander. He doesn't hit, but is physical with the puck and goes into dirty areas. Doesn't get out muscled and haven't been scared in physical games. Resilient skill guy.

Marner is hitting right now, but have had those problems way more than Nylander.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Our goalie situation is garbage.

It's not ideal, especially with the injury that happened post-deadline, but it's far from "garbage", and none of the available options at the deadline were meaningful upgrades on what we had.

it's not sound thinking to believe Jack's carrying us to a Cup.

We don't need Jack to "carry us to a cup". The rest of our team is good enough that we just need him to play at his normal level that he is more than capable of playing at. A few months ago, most of this board was freaking out about how we were going to afford this Vezina candidate and all star. He's as capable of going on a run as anybody.

And, further, who is #2, if/when Jack physically or mentally flames out?

If any team out there is pulling their starting goalie, they're in a bad spot, and at the deadline, Mrazek was healthy. You can't throw piles of assets at a guy who will only help you if your starter and backup gets injured.

Kyle certainly did know Sateri would be claimed.

Except he had absolutely no way of knowing that.

Harri Sateri was honestly going to be an answer? That was really the thinking?

No, that wasn't the thinking. That's something you made up on your own. He was just added goalie depth. Our #3 option, at best.

The Fleury thing is well-documented.

Well, yes, the "Fleury thing" is well documented, so it's weird that you're trying to pretend it was something other than what it was.

Yes, the leaked trade.

Leaked trade offer from Chicago that was rejected for being silly, that probably wouldn't have gone through anyway because Fleury never would have moved countries*

Fleury isn't the only goalie in the league. Forsberg was said to be there for the taking. I'd be much more comfortable with him than anything we have in this organization.

Forsberg is not an upgrade on what we have in the organization.

That is what your GM is for. To get guys who aren't available and make it happen. If you need something, you get something.

No, that's not how it works in the real world.

Yes, he bailed on the bad Ritchie acquisition and contract. A wise decision.

He moved on from a guy that wasn't working and acquired a solid, tough defenseman in the process. Prior to the deadline. So you were wrong in multiple ways.

 

[Dekes For Days]

He did acquire Kyle and Wayne after recalibrating his thinking

He didn't recalibrate anything. Your assumptions of his team-building methods are just flat-out wrong. He got "tough" players every year he's been here. He's brought in these kind of players at every single level he's managed.

He initially did not want players like them.

That's just flat out not true.

neither guy can play. Wayne has 1 goal since December and Clifford has one all season.

They still have qualities to offer as 4th line players, even if their goal-scoring has dried up.

Where'd Montreal rank in hits last season?

Where'd Chicago rank in hits in their dynasty years?

Auston and Mitch were terrible vs. them last season. Why was that?

They weren't terrible. They skated circles around their matchup, but struggled with finish from a combination of Price playing well, some bad puck luck (ie. hitting posts), and injuries to our primary and secondary finishers on the line. That has nothing to do with "hitz".

The Dubas argument is fun. You have one side lauding him and promoting his greatness, while the other asks where are your results?

He's had plenty of results. It's just not yet the one singular result you incorrectly think you can judge a GM exclusively by.

 

[riffle]

It's not ideal, especially with the injury that happened post-deadline, but it's far from "garbage", and none of the available options at the deadline were meaningful upgrades on what we had.

We don't need Jack to "carry us to a cup". The rest of our team is good enough that we just need him to play at his normal level that he is more than capable of playing at. A few months ago, most of this board was freaking out about how we were going to afford this Vezina candidate and all star. He's as capable of going on a run as anybody.

If any team out there is pulling their starting goalie, they're in a bad spot, and at the deadline, Mrazek was healthy. You can't throw piles of assets at a guy who will only help you if your starter and backup gets injured.

Except he had absolutely no way of knowing that.

No, that wasn't the thinking. That's something you made up on your own. He was just added goalie depth. Our #3 option, at best.

Well, yes, the "Fleury thing" is well documented, so it's weird that you're trying to pretend it was something other than what it was.

Leaked trade offer from Chicago that was rejected for being silly, that probably wouldn't have gone through anyway because Fleury never would have moved countries*

Forsberg is not an upgrade on what we have in the organization.

No, that's not how it works in the real world.

He moved on from a guy that wasn't working and acquired a solid, tough defenseman in the process. Prior to the deadline. So you were wrong in multiple ways.

Could you please tell me where Erik Kallgren fits in the goalie pecking order right now?

Then, tell me again that Harri Sateri was not even a thought in Kyle's mind of being a potential answer for us.

Wrong in multiple ways? I was referring to Kyle having weeks to add a goalie, and you hit me with Kyle did make a trade involving Ritchie. If you think that's a win, have at it.

BTW, when you get some time you should look into what psychologists have to say about this type of replying online. It's pretty interesting. I'm solely speaking to the format of your reply, and not the content of it.

 

[Leaf Fans]

He plays as soft as a hammerstrom.

As Hammerstrom? That guy was so tough that he could go in to a corner with eggs in his pocket and none of the eggs would be broken. That was 70s hockey!

 

[Dekes For Days]

Could you please tell me where Erik Kallgren fits in the goalie pecking order right now?

He's somewhere between 3-5 on our goalie depth chart with Woll and Hutchinson.

Then, tell me again that Harri Sateri was not even a thought in Kyle's mind of being a potential answer for us.

He was not an "answer" for us. He was goalie depth, to largely battle with that group of 3.

I was referring to Kyle having weeks to add a goalie

We didn't need to add a goalie, and if there aren't any meaningful upgrades at the deadline, there aren't going to be any a week before the deadline.

BTW, when you get some time you should look into what psychologists have to say about this type of replying online. It's pretty interesting. I'm solely speaking to the format of your reply, and not the content of it.

I'm sure they'd acknowledge how much easier it is to follow than your replying format.

 

[riffle]

He didn't recalibrate anything. Your assumptions of his team-building methods are just flat-out wrong. He got "tough" players every year he's been here. He's brought in these kind of players at every single level he's managed.

That's just flat out not true.

They still have qualities to offer as 4th line players, even if their goal-scoring has dried up.

Where'd Chicago rank in hits in their dynasty years?

They weren't terrible. They skated circles around their matchup, but struggled with finish from a combination of Price playing well, some bad puck luck (ie. hitting posts), and injuries to our primary and secondary finishers on the line. That has nothing to do with "hitz".

He's had plenty of results. It's just not yet the one singular result you incorrectly think you can judge a GM exclusively by.

You live in a different world than I do. How many goals did Willy score vs. that stone wall Carey Price? FIVE. Amazing Carey was only good against the guy with the inferior shot to Auston's. Mitch and Auston could only beat him once. Willy 5 times and 3 assists to boot.

Do you contemplate what I post or do you just reply with what you have always believed?

Kyle has results of failure. Nothing more. You can point to regular season. Lou already had this team over 100 points. Kyle moved into a palatial estate. Hey, he added JT. You'll be thanking him for that one for a couple of more seasons, I'm sure.

Where'd Chicago rank? Hey, I don't know off the top of my head. Why'd you go so far back in time?

I would bet everything you would argue intangibles are largely unimportant but since Simmonds and Clifford have no goal production to speak of, now they are important and those 2 guys have them in spades. Both can fight. Love that. Both can and will hit. Love that too. So, is hitting and fighting important? If not, what else are they bringing that you're referring to?

 

[All Mod Cons]

I give Kyle a lot of credit for listening to the fans/media/people in hockey and changing his views on the game. Thankfully the whole Malgin, Petan, Timashov, Barrie, debacle looks to be over.

Generally, us lot in our 30s are known for being able to pivot and change directions with more ease than ones before us. Kyle used those skills to try to reverse path. A few years and assets were wasted, but he's at least come around to where the media and a portion of the fanbase was back in 2019.

Obviously the biggest issue, and where everything stems from is, we have a 12mil 2nd (3rd?) line centre. That will stop us from achieving what we want to regardless of any tinkering around the edges.

 

[Gabriel426]

I give Kyle a lot of credit for listening to the fans/media/people in hockey and changing his views on the game. Thankfully the whole Malgin, Petan, Timashov, Barrie, debacle looks to be over.

Generally, us lot in our 30s are known for being able to pivot and change directions with more ease than ones before us. Kyle used those skills to try to reverse path. A few years and assets were wasted, but he's at least come around to where the media and a portion of the fanbase was back in 2019.

Obviously the biggest issue, and where everything stems from is, we have a 12mil 2nd (3rd?) line centre. That will stop us from achieving what we want to regardless of any tinkering around the edges.

As long as we have Bunting who plays like a 5-6mil player but getting paid 950k, you add that to JT and boom, both are 6mil players. JT looks pretty good for a 6mil player. Lol.

 

[All Mod Cons]

As long as we have Bunting who plays like a 5-6mil player but getting paid 950k, you add that to JT and boom, both are 6mil players. JT looks pretty good for a 6mil player. Lol.

Not when you consider Kucherov at 9.5m and Ross Colton at 1.125m. Give me Kucherov at 5.3mil any day.

 

[Gabriel426]

Not when you consider Kucherov at 9.5m and Ross Colton at 1.125m. Give me Kucherov at 5.3mil any day.

But we have AM at 11.634 and Engvall at 1.25, plus Kampf at 1.64, thats 4.84 mil, lol.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You live in a different world than I do.

It's called the real world.

How many goals did Willy score vs. that stone wall Carey Price?

Not sure why you think it matters. If a goalie is playing well, it doesn't mean that they're going to have the exact same save percentage against every single person on the team in every possible small sample. Price had a long list of stars he shut down more than Matthews/Marner last playoffs - even ones that weren't injured or hitting a bunch of posts.

Also, funny enough, you're kind of arguing against your own argument. If the playoffs are all about "hitz" and Nylander is the model of softness, then how did Nylander perform so well?

Kyle has results of failure.

Not true. Dubas has a ton of successful and positive results. He just doesn't yet have the one specific singular result that you're attempting to judge him exclusively by.

Where'd Chicago rank? Hey, I don't know off the top of my head.

Good thing I already told you. 7th last, 2nd last, and dead last. Certain type of hits in certain situations can be beneficial, but where you rank in hits is meaningless.

I would bet everything you would argue intangibles are largely unimportant

So now you're putting words in my mouth, just like you put words in Dubas' mouth. There are things that players can offer other than goals and face-punching.

 

[DraftSchmaft]

I give Kyle a lot of credit for listening to the fans/media/people in hockey and changing his views on the game. Thankfully the whole Malgin, Petan, Timashov, Barrie, debacle looks to be over.

Generally, us lot in our 30s are known for being able to pivot and change directions with more ease than ones before us. Kyle used those skills to try to reverse path. A few years and assets were wasted, but he's at least come around to where the media and a portion of the fanbase was back in 2019.

Obviously the biggest issue, and where everything stems from is, we have a 12mil 2nd (3rd?) line centre. That will stop us from achieving what we want to regardless of any tinkering around the edges.

ehhh Timashov plays a hard game. He doesn't belong in that list. Sucks he didn't work out, guy has heart.

 

[All Mod Cons]

But we have AM at 11.634 and Engvall at 1.25, plus Kampf at 1.64, thats 4.84 mil, lol.

4.84 mil for Engvall or Kampf seems steep though.

 

[All Mod Cons]

ehhh Timashov plays a hard game. He doesn't belong in that list. Sucks he didn't work out, guy has heart.

At 5'9, 185 or whatever he was, he was about as useful as a fart in a colander.

 

[Nylanderthal]

At 5'9, 185 or whatever he was, he was about as useful as a fart in a colander.

Brayden point isn’t much bigger if at all, but carry on

 

[riffle]

It's called the real world.

Not sure why you think it matters. If a goalie is playing well, it doesn't mean that they're going to have the exact same save percentage against every single person on the team in every possible small sample. Price had a long list of stars he shut down more than Matthews/Marner last playoffs - even ones that weren't injured or hitting a bunch of posts.

Also, funny enough, you're kind of arguing against your own argument. If the playoffs are all about "hitz" and Nylander is the model of softness, then how did Nylander perform so well?

Not true. Dubas has a ton of successful and positive results. He just doesn't yet have the one specific singular result that you're attempting to judge him exclusively by.

Good thing I already told you. 7th last, 2nd last, and dead last. Certain type of hits in certain situations can be beneficial, but where you rank in hits is meaningless.

So now you're putting words in my mouth, just like you put words in Dubas' mouth. There are things that players can offer other than goals and face-punching.

You can take the "W" in your own mind on this. I find your replies vacuous. You attempt to slink away from points you can't refute.

Auston got goalied but Willy did not. Willy was able to beat Price pretty consistently with his inferior shot, but the NHL's best goal scorer could only beat him one time. There is a why there, but you don't like the answer so, as you initially stated, you mentioned the lazy "goalied" thing. When confronted with Willy's numbers, you go into one of these odd dissertations on what being goalied really means. I know what it means and so do you.

A team is judged on playoff accomplishments. His are? Oh, he got to the final game each and every time. He didn't make the playoffs the year we lost the play in series. The one year he gets the gift of a Canadian division his team chokes a 3-1 lead to the 18th place team in the league. His accomplishments look very very thin. He also has a cap that is a nightmare after giving too bloated of contracts to his favorite guys. He created the mess and you credit him for not winning anything. He can't lose. Everyone needs someone in their corner like you are for Kyle and this team.

A soft team is spun into "smart" because we don't like that word that really applies so we'll make up a different one and turn a true negative into a perceived false positive.

The real world that you claim you live in spins a lot faster than one I live on.

Have zero ill will for you but find your lack of honest debate very disappointing.

 

[Dreakmur]

He didn't recalibrate anything.

If that's true, fire him now. As a rookie GM, there's nothing wrong with learning and evolving - it's a necessity.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You attempt to slink away from points you can't refute.

Except I'm the one addressing your statements, and you're the one creating strawmen and deflections every time you're shown to be wrong.

Auston got goalied but Willy did not.

Price played extremely well. Nylander was healthy, playing with healthy people, and getting the bounces in this short sample. Matthews was injured, playing with injured people, and was not getting the bounces and hitting a bunch of posts in this short sample. A goalie playing well doesn't mean that they have the exact same save percentage against everybody. It's not like Matthews and Marner were the only ones to run into struggles finishing against him. This has absolutely nothing to do with "hitz".

There is a why there

And what exactly do you think the why is?

the lazy "goalied" thing.

There's nothing lazy about acknowledging the objective quality of goaltending in a series and the impact it had. Lazy would be concluding that we lost because something something "toughness" something something "hitz".

A team is judged on playoff accomplishments.

A team is judged on their results in both the playoffs and the regular season, and a GM is judged by a lot more than just team results.

He didn't make the playoffs the year we lost the play in series.

He has made the playoffs every single year he's been GM.

He also has a cap that is a nightmare after giving too bloated of contracts to his favorite guys.

We actually have a very well managed cap, and we've maneuvered some tight situations extremely well, and this is all despite the flat cap hitting us at the worst time after we gave reasonable contracts to our best guys.

He created the mess

There is no mess. There is only one of the best teams in the league, well set up for the present and future.

Have zero ill will for you but find your lack of honest debate very disappointing.

The only one having a dishonest debate here is you.

 

[riffle]

If that's true, fire him now. As a rookie GM, there's nothing wrong with learning and evolving - it's a necessity.

He did recalibrate.

November 2019:

When did Clifford and Simmonds arrive? It wasn't before Nov 2019. Clifford came in February 2020 and Simmonds later.

Please, don't tell me Clifford and Simmonds added to the "talent base". We all know who those guys are. Enforcers. Nothing more.

 

[Dekes For Days]

there's nothing wrong with learning and evolving - it's a necessity.

Dubas has been very open to learning and evolving, like any GM should, but that doesn't mean recalibrating things that don't need recalibrating. The person I replied to simply misrepresented Dubas' original approach and position on the matter.

 

[riffle]

Except I'm the one addressing your statements, and you're the one creating strawmen and deflections every time you're shown to be wrong.

Price played extremely well. Nylander was healthy, playing with healthy people, and getting the bounces in this short sample. Matthews was injured, playing with injured people, and was not getting the bounces and hitting a bunch of posts in this short sample. A goalie playing well doesn't mean that they have the exact same save percentage against everybody. It's not like Matthews and Marner were the only ones to run into struggles finishing against him. This has absolutely nothing to do with "hitz".

And what exactly do you think the why is?

There's nothing lazy about acknowledging the objective quality of goaltending in a series and the impact it had. Lazy would be concluding that we lost because something something "toughness" something something "hitz".

A team is judged on their results in both the playoffs and the regular season, and a GM is judged by a lot more than just team results.

He has made the playoffs every single year he's been GM.

We actually have a very well managed cap, and we've maneuvered some tight situations extremely well, and this is all despite the flat cap hitting us at the worst time after we gave reasonable contracts to our best guys.

There is no mess. There is only one of the best teams in the league, well set up for the present and future.

The only one having a dishonest debate here is you.

We don't have a well-managed cap. We have a very bad cap situation that has constant games played with it to be in compliance. Fake injuries left and right for years to move guys around to stay compliant. Creating the situation that requires that is not good cap management especially given 3 guys account for 33 million. I don't need to show you how bad that is. There are no comps because Kyle believed those 3 would bring Cups. In fairness, JT didn't get his chance last year, but this team hasn't won diddly. It is an inescapable unavoidable reality. Do the playoffs even matter to you, or do you cling to other things, and if so...what other things?

BTW, you are wrong, again. Kyle did not make the playoffs every year. He made the play in 2 years ago. His team failed to qualify for the actual playoffs. Was the team he inherited a playoff team or did he take a team and elevate it? Show me the growth as measured by playoff success? Not making the playoffs after losing the play in is a step backward, not forward.

We aren't set up for the future. JT's conftract will be troublesome soon enough if it isn't already. Auston is only a 5 year deal. Bad bad contract relating to term. I'm sure you have some counter argument to convince yourself 5 years was great for this team. It wasn't.

There's no dishonesty from me. Not my way. When I'm wrong I say so. I've gotten some things tragically wrong here and have admitted to them.

A team is judged on playoffs. Have you not paid any attention to what the Leafs have said about this subject this season? They know it is ALL ABOUT THE PLAYOFFS, but you don't?

Dubas didn't save his job by finishing 2nd or 3rd in the Atlantic. He needs something positive to happen in Round 1. A sweep or a 5-game series defeat should end his tenure unless Matthews is out. That may save his job.

If Dubas goes, Keefe goes as well. The old grizzled vets in Lou and Babs had this team inclining. The two novices haven't taken it to new heights and as mentioned earlier didn't even make the playoffs 2 years ago.

For me, I'd be ecstatic to see new voices in both roles next season should this team fail, again. As well as at least one of the Big 4 moving on.

The vision starts coming to fruition in May or move on. You can't justify another early playoff exit short of injury.

 

[Nylanderthal]

We don't have a well-managed cap. We have a very bad cap situation that has constant games played with it to be in compliance. Fake injuries left and right for years to move guys around to stay compliant. Creating the situation that requires that is not good cap management especially given 3 guys account for 33 million. I don't need to show you how bad that is. There are no comps because Kyle believed those 3 would bring Cups. In fairness, JT didn't get his chance last year, but this team hasn't won diddly. It is an inescapable unavoidable reality. Do the playoffs even matter to you, or do you cling to other things, and if so...what other things?

BTW, you are wrong, again. Kyle did not make the playoffs every year. He made the play in 2 years ago. His team failed to qualify for the actual playoffs. Was the team he inherited a playoff team or did he take a team and elevate it? Show me the growth as measured by playoff success? Not making the playoffs after losing the play in is a step backward, not forward.

We aren't set up for the future. JT's conftract will be troublesome soon enough if it isn't already. Auston is only a 5 year deal. Bad bad contract relating to term. I'm sure you have some counter argument to convince yourself 5 years was great for this team. It wasn't.

There's no dishonesty from me. Not my way. When I'm wrong I say so. I've gotten some things tragically wrong here and have admitted to them.

A team is judged on playoffs. Have you not paid any attention to what the Leafs have said about this subject this season? They know it is ALL ABOUT THE PLAYOFFS, but you don't?

Dubas didn't save his job by finishing 2nd or 3rd in the Atlantic. He needs something positive to happen in Round 1. A sweep or a 5-game series defeat should end his tenure unless Matthews is out. That may save his job.

If Dubas goes, Keefe goes as well. The old grizzled vets in Lou and Babs had this team inclining. The two novices haven't taken it to new heights and as mentioned earlier didn't even make the playoffs 2 years ago.

For me, I'd be ecstatic to see new voices in both roles next season should this team fail, again. As well as at least one of the Big 4 moving on.

The vision starts coming to fruition in May or move on. You can't justify another early playoff exit short of injury.

Jesus you type a lot of words and end up with a word salad that says absolutely nothing of importance or intelligence. Give it up

 

[All Mod Cons]

He did recalibrate.

November 2019:

View attachment 534293

When did Clifford and Simmonds arrive? It wasn't before Nov 2019. Clifford came in February 2020 and Simmonds later.

Please, don't tell me Clifford and Simmonds added to the "talent base". We all know who those guys are. Enforcers. Nothing more.

Yep. And there's nothing wrong with changing your outlook on the game. He learned that his initial outlook was incorrect and took on board the fans/media input and changed course. I respect that.

 

[riffle]

Jesus you type a lot of word and end up with a word salad saying that says absolutely nothing of importance or intelligence. Give it up

I guarantee you would not have this opinion if I was saying something flattering of Kyle Dubas.