Kyle Dubas discussion II

[Dekes For Days]

He still doesn't fully get it.

He gets it, and always has - at least throughout his management career.

 

[All Mod Cons]

He still doesn't fully get it. Either he's slowly learning or he's never going to get it. I prefer to be positive.

I think he's definitely learning. It was incredibly frustrating watching him scramble around in his first couple of years. But i do believe he relaxed on his stubbornness, and really paid attention to the fans and the hockey world. I'd be prepared to give him another season as long as he continues to show he's starting to get it.

 

[IPS]

I think he's definitely learning. It was incredibly frustrating watching him scramble around in his first couple of years. But i do believe he relaxed on his stubbornness, and really paid attention to the fans and the hockey world. I'd be prepared to give him another season as long as he continues to show he's starting to get it.

Even if we lose again in the 1st round?

 

[All Mod Cons]

Even if we lose again in the 1st round?

Yeah I think so. I think he's shown that he's learned a valuable lesson and has changed his outlook on hockey, to a more successful outlook.

I think it's worth another year.

I've also heard there are literally no other humans in the World that could GM a hockey team.

 

[riffle]

We do have a well-managed cap. We always score well on measures of that. We have our core locked in, we've got no anchors, we've got no contacts stretching into significant decline years, we have cap distributed well and allocated to the right pieces, we have a good stagger on our contract expirations, etc. We've shown an excellent ability to maneuver difficult cap situations multiple times. Just because a team operates at the cap ceiling as a competitive team, it doesn't mean their cap is badly managed.

What are you even talking about? We haven't had any fake injuries. That's not a thing. Both the NHL and insurance companies would come down hard on teams, especially the Leafs.

Great players get paid. All of the contracts were consistent with comparables, and they may take up a considerable portion of our cap, but they're a similarly big part of why we're so good.

Of course the playoffs matter. Contextless playoff series win/loss record is just not the only thing that matters when evaluating a team or GM, like you seem to think.

Dubas has made the playoffs every single year he's been GM. Leafs were factually a playoff team in 2020.

He inherited a team that made the playoffs in the year prior to him taking over, but also a team that was set up for significant steps backward (immediately departing depth, cap anchors, a barren prospect pool, ELCs ending, etc.). He not only held off the backward slide, but elevated the team far beyond the team he took over, through a flat cap and the numerous barriers that stood in his way.

Of course we are. This team is set up to compete for a long time.

But you've been wrong about pretty much everything here, and still refuse to acknowledge it.

A team is judged on more than just the playoffs. A GM is judged on even more than a team.

Of course they're focused on the playoffs. That's the part that's eluded them so far, and that's the ultimate goal. That doesn't mean we ignore everything else when discussing the quality of a team or the performance of a GM.

Sorry to disappoint you, but Dubas' job isn't in danger.

You chose not to address Matthews 5-year term. Why?

The Leafs did not make the playoffs in 2020. They lost in the play-in. You saying they factually made the the playoffs is wrong.

You didn't address JT's rapidly depreciating contract. You honestly believe his money is money well spent for this season? Just wait for the next few.

Writing replies is not answering. Answering is actually addressing the concerns raised in my posts.

Glad playoffs matter to you. It appears other things are weighted equally or more to you. We simply see that differently. I do weight other things like what kind of contracts a GM gives out, and he's put us in a very difficult bind. No other GM would've given out the collective money to JT, Auston and Mitch. Signing JT will prove to be a mistake, if it hasn't already. No playoff wins since his arrival, and the cap has been hamstrung. Hindsight is a cruel mistress. The buzz from his signing has long since died. Now, you're seeing it for what it really is/was...a mistake.

 

[Dreakmur]

He gets it, and always has - at least throughout his management career.

I realize you've built Dubas up into some kind of perfect idol in your imagination, but he isn't infallible. He's been a generally good GM, but he's made mistakes - undervaluing toughness has definitely been one of them.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I realize you've built Dubas up into some kind of perfect idol in your imagination, but he isn't infallible. He's been a generally good GM, but he's made mistakes - undervaluing toughness has definitely been one of them.

I don't believe Dubas is some "perfect idol" or "infallible". I just also don't make up easily disprovable strawmen to incorrectly apply to him. He's always had an appreciation and proper understanding of the value of "toughness", and has always looked to acquire that quality at every level he's managed and throughout his entire time as NHL GM. Undervaluing toughness is not a mistake he has made.

Unfortunately, a vocal minority of fans here massively overvalues "toughness", and unfortunately, some of them believe that the least impactful forms of "toughness" are the only "toughness" that are "tough", and have formed a dislike for Dubas because he also has an appreciation for the playing hockey part of the game, and he didn't come in here and immediately run a battering ram through the roster to instantly inject a majority of face-punchers and big hitters - including in the top-six - that were supposed to just magically appear and fall into his lap.

 

[Dreakmur]

I don't believe Dubas is some "perfect idol" or "infallible". I just also don't make up easily disprovable strawmen to incorrectly apply to him. He's always had an appreciation and proper understanding of the value of "toughness", and has always looked to acquire that quality at every level he's managed and throughout his entire time as NHL GM. Undervaluing toughness is not a mistake he has made.

Unfortunately, a vocal minority of fans here massively overvalues "toughness", and unfortunately, some of them believe that the least impactful forms of "toughness" are the only "toughness" that are "tough", and have formed a dislike for Dubas because he also has an appreciation for the playing hockey part of the game, and he didn't come in here and immediately run a battering ram through the roster to instantly inject a majority of face-punchers and big hitters - including in the top-six - that were supposed to just magically appear and fall into his lap.

If you think Kyle Dubas fully understands the value of toughness, then I’m afraid you don’t understand it either.

 

[ToneDog]

I realize you've built Dubas up into some kind of perfect idol in your imagination, but he isn't infallible. He's been a generally good GM, but he's made mistakes - undervaluing toughness has definitely been one of them.

Be prepared for the "we got goalied by Vasi" excuses if we lose to Tampa in round #1.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You chose not to address Matthews 5-year term. Why?

What is there to address? 5 years is actually the most common post-ELC term for a player of that caliber. We went 5 years so that we could keep all of the big guys together and have room to build around.

The Leafs did not make the playoffs in 2020.

As per the NHL's official position and the record books, the Leafs factually made the playoffs in 2020. 24 teams made the playoffs in 2020 because of the pandemic. Even by the usual criteria, we were in a playoff spot at the stoppage. Take it up with the NHL if you don't like it, but facts are that Dubas has made the playoffs every year as GM.

You didn't address JT's rapidly depreciating contract.

Not really much to say other than the fact that it's not true. Tavares is still performing at a consistent, high level.

Glad playoffs matter to you. It appears other things are weighted equally or more to you. We simply see that differently.

Do you believe that Montreal is the 2nd best team in the league? Should Bergevin have kept his job? Within the most recent playoffs, they had the 2nd most series wins.

If the answer is no, then you clearly value other things as well - you just don't want to admit it because you dislike Dubas and it's the only thing left that somebody could hold against him.

No other GM would've given out the collective money to JT, Auston and Mitch.

Every single GM in the league would have signed those players for just as much, if not more - or to the detriment of their team, lost them to somebody who did.

 

[Dekes For Days]

If you think Kyle Dubas fully understands the value of toughness, then I’m afraid you don’t understand it either.

Both Dubas and I understand it perfectly. Based on your comments, you may be in the group overvaluing it, and potentially the wrong kind.

 

[Mess]

I don't believe Dubas is some "perfect idol" or "infallible". I just also don't make up easily disprovable strawmen to incorrectly apply to him. He's always had an appreciation and proper understanding of the value of "toughness", and has always looked to acquire that quality at every level he's managed and throughout his entire time as NHL GM. Undervaluing toughness is not a mistake he has made.

Unfortunately, a vocal minority of fans here massively overvalues "toughness", and unfortunately, some of them believe that the least impactful forms of "toughness" are the only "toughness" that are "tough", and have formed a dislike for Dubas because he also has an appreciation for the playing hockey part of the game, and he didn't come in here and immediately run a battering ram through the roster to instantly inject a majority of face-punchers and big hitters - including in the top-six - that were supposed to just magically appear and fall into his lap.

Dubas vision has changed dramatically for the better over time as he went from loving small skilled players with speed to now building and drafting better and wiser. Both bigger and stronger and tougher players has been the trend to make the Leafs more competitive particularly come playoff time.

When Dubas got control as GM then the Matt Martin, Leo Komarov and Roman Polak type players with size and grit had to go. Trading a big tough player that can play like Mason Marchement for a little powder puff smurf like Denis Malgin was the prototypical Dubas move in the past as he loved small skilled players and devalued size, strength and physicality. Now we're adding Simmonds, Clifford, Ritchie --> Lyubushkiin, and when adding smaller players they're ones with grit like Bunting and Blackwell, showing he finally undrstands he is managing a hockey team not a figure skating team.

Instead of drafting Jeremy Bracco and Martin Dzierkals and Dmytro Timoshev, which has no future value, he has turned his focus to Matthew Knies. Now with drafting a Matthew Knies in the 2nd round instead who has size and skill 6-3/210 and some physicality to his game and one you can see inserted into the Leafs top 6 in the near future the goal post of understanding have changed. Under Dubas in the past getting him to draft a player over 6' with any degree of grit, was like pulling teeth.

 

[Dreakmur]

Both Dubas and I understand it perfectly. Based on your comments, you may be in the group overvaluing it, and potentially the wrong kind.

I guess I’ll just have to take the word of a guy who has yet to be right about this team defending the team building knowledge of a guy who’s never built a winning team.

 

[TMLegend]

I guess I’ll just have to take the word of a guy who has yet to be right about this team defending the team building knowledge of a guy who’s never built a winning team.

Technically Dubas won a Calder cup in the AHL as GM of the Marlies.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Dubas vision has changed dramatically for the better over time as he went from loving small skilled players with speed to now building and drafting better and wiser. Both bigger and stronger and tougher players has been the trend to make the Leafs more competitive particularly come playoff time.

When Dubas got control as GM then the Matt Martin, Leo Komarov and Roman Polak type players with size and grit had to go. Trading a big tough player that can play like Mason Marchement for a little powder puff smurf like Denis Malgin was the prototypical Dubas move in the past as he loved small skilled players and devalued size, strength and physicality. Now we're adding Simmonds, Clifford, Ritchie --> Lyubushkiin, and when adding smaller players they're ones with grit like Bunting and Blackwell, showing he finally undrstands he is managing a hockey team not a figure skating team.

Instead of drafting Jeremy Bracco and Martin Dzierkals and Dmytro Timoshev, which has no future value, he has turned his focus to Matthew Knies. Now with drafting a Matthew Knies in the 2nd round instead who has size and skill 6-3/210 and some physicality to his game and one you can see inserted into the Leafs top 6 in the near future the goal post of understanding have changed. Under Dubas in the past getting him to draft a player over 6' with any degree of grit, was like pulling teeth.

Those guys were all Hunter picks…. Carry on though

 

[riffle]

What is there to address? 5 years is actually the most common post-ELC term for a player of that caliber. We went 5 years so that we could keep all of the big guys together and have room to build around.

As per the NHL's official position and the record books, the Leafs factually made the playoffs in 2020. 24 teams made the playoffs in 2020 because of the pandemic. Even by the usual criteria, we were in a playoff spot at the stoppage. Take it up with the NHL if you don't like it, but facts are that Dubas has made the playoffs every year as GM.

Not really much to say other than the fact that it's not true. Tavares is still performing at a consistent, high level.

Do you believe that Montreal is the 2nd best team in the league? Should Bergevin have kept his job? Within the most recent playoffs, they had the 2nd most series wins.

If the answer is no, then you clearly value other things as well - you just don't want to admit it because you dislike Dubas and it's the only thing left that somebody could hold against him.

Every single GM in the league would have signed those players for just as much, if not more - or to the detriment of their team, lost them to somebody who did.

The Montreal point is one I wondered if you'd bring up and you did. I applaud you for it because it's germane to this debate.

The Habs didn't belong in the playoffs. They finished 18th in the regular season. Any sane individual (not Habs fans) realized that team didn't belong in the playoffs. Yes, they got hot over a small sample size of games. A sane person realizes you don't bank on that happening over 82-games and again in the playoffs. There are parallels that might be subtle to you regarding the way Dubas is seen by his fans.

The play in series vs. Columbus was as it was because the season didn't reach 82 games, as you know. The Jackets were in 6th position in the Metro. So, in the last two seasons, Dubas' teams have lost to the 18th best team in hockey and the 6th in the Metro. I'm sure to you that is irrelevant. As will another loss this time around, should it happen.

Lots of irony in you contending every other GM in the league would've given that money to JT, Auston and Mitch. JT was TRADED FOR knowing we had guys who would command big contracts. You don't add that kind of money to your cap if you have the vision to see what was ahead with your cap. There is NO GM IN THE LEAGUE who would've added JT's contract AFTER the money was given out to the other guys. Kyle's vision and anticipatory skills led him into this trap we're now in with JT. It reminds of my old buddy who does Wild pre-and post, Kevin Falness. That guy used to tag all of his Parise tweets with #wortheverypenny Go ask Kevin if Zach Parise is still #wortheverypenny Both the Suter and Parise contracts that were hailed in Minnesota are now universally panned as TERRIBLE. A GM with vision wouldn't have handed those out. Wild in cap difficulty for years due to these horrific deals. This is their last real shot due to those bad deals. JT's deal, while not as bad, is still awful.

Hey, I like Kyle Dubas. I do. I do not like his deification which happens in every fanbase in every sport so not a crime for you to be caught up in that kind of a thing. I just like to speak of him in non-homer terms. Koolaid isn't for me.

 

[Dreakmur]

Technically Dubas won a Calder cup in the AHL as GM of the Marlies.

Which is why I specifically said built a winner rather than simply being present for one.

 

[Dreakmur]

Those guys were all Hunter picks…. Carry on though

But Marner was Dubas?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Dubas vision has changed dramatically for the better over time as he went from loving small skilled players with speed to now building and drafting better and wiser. Both bigger and stronger and tougher players has been the trend to make the Leafs more competitive particularly come playoff time.

That's a nice narrative, but it's not true. Dubas' vision has not changed dramatically - many just came to incorrect assumptions about his vision. He never exclusively went for "small skilled players with speed". He just wouldn't dismiss players and the impact they could have for his team because of their size. This hasn't changed. He never disliked "bigger, stronger, tougher" players. He just also needs his players to actually be able to play hockey as well. Toughness also means a lot more than just face-punching or crushing hits.

He's added these kinds of players through his GM career, and through his management time prior to the NHL. People just ridiculously overvalued their perception of "toughness", and expected an unrealistic immediate remedy to their imagined problem.

 

[Dreakmur]

That's a nice narrative, but it's not true. Dubas' vision has not changed dramatically - many just came to incorrect assumptions about his vision. He never exclusively went for "small skilled players with speed". He just wouldn't dismiss players and the impact they could have for his team because of their size. This hasn't changed. He never disliked "bigger, stronger, tougher" players. He just also needs his players to actually be able to play hockey as well. Toughness also means a lot more than just face-punching or crushing hits.

He's added these kinds of players through his GM career, and through his management time prior to the NHL. People just ridiculously overvalued their perception of "toughness", and expected an unrealistic immediate remedy to their imagined problem.

Kyle is perfect in every way. He’s never made a mistake, and has never needed to learn or change or grow.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I guess I’ll just have to take the word of a guy who has yet to be right about this team defending the team building knowledge of a guy who’s never built a winning team.

Not sure who you're referring to. You could just listen to me - a guy who's been consistently right about everything regarding this team, accurately discussing an NHL GM's vision and his proper understanding of an aspect of hockey, and their successful build of one of the best teams in the league.

Kyle is perfect in every way. He’s never made a mistake, and has never needed to learn or change or grow.

That's an interesting position. Personally, I disagree.

 

[Nylanderthal]

But Marner was Dubas?

What does marner have anything to do with it? You often lean on the scouting department the deeper in the draft you go… Obviously Mitch would’ve been highly endorsed by Hunter, but that doesn’t mean Kyle wasn’t on board as well. He’s exactly what Kyle values in high draft picks.
The only thing I heard of varying opinions was Babs wanting Hanifin and the leafs pondering trading back to 7 for the jackets 3 2nd rounders if the coyotes drafted marner instead of Strome.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The Habs didn't belong in the playoffs. They finished 18th in the regular season.

But you said the regular season is irrelevant. It can't be considered when discussing the quality of a team, right? All that matters is series wins.

According to that, Montreal is the 2nd best team in the league.

Yes, they got hot over a small sample size of games.

Ah, so is this acknowledging that a small sample size of games against one team over a short period of time with no considered context may not be best to use as the only representation of a team's quality or GM's performance?

So, in the last two seasons, Dubas' teams have lost to the 18th best team in hockey and the 6th in the Metro.

Sounds like you're putting value on the regular season again. It's interesting how you say the playoffs are all that matters, but then refer to Montreal by their regular season rank, because saying "we lost to the Stanley Cup finalists" doesn't provide the same punch against Dubas. It's also interesting how you use league rank for one team and division rank for another, to give the worst possible perception. Columbus had a point percentage that was tied for 13th in the league, for the record, and they were the best defensive team in the league.

I'm sure to you that is irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant. It's just not the only thing that matters. And it's a very simplistic way of looking at it, that ignores a lot of context.

JT was TRADED FOR knowing we had guys who would command big contracts. You don't add that kind of money to your cap if you have the vision to see what was ahead with your cap. There is NO GM IN THE LEAGUE who would've added JT's contract AFTER the money was given out to the other guys.

Couple things here...

1. Tavares was not traded for. Tavares was signed in UFA for no expended assets.
2. Tavares' contract was not given out after the other guys got paid.
3. Every GM in the league would have signed Tavares to that contract given the opportunity. Many tried to sign him for more. He did not prevent us from signing our other big guys, even with them earning contracts that were bigger than anticipated, and the only reason it's even as "tight" as it is is because of a pandemic-induced flat cap that nobody saw coming.

Both the Suter and Parise contracts that were hailed in Minnesota are now universally panned as TERRIBLE.

Well obviously. They signed them for 13 years until they were 40+. That has no relevance to Tavares.

I do not like his deification which happens in every fanbase in every sport so not a crime for you to be caught up in that kind of a thing.

Nobody here has deified him. Some just prefer not to vilify people for things they don't deserve to be vilified for.

 

[riffle]

I should channel you...JT was traded for. They traded away a significant portion of their cap for the right to watch him depreciate.

You're 100% right. I got that one completely wrong. I knew he wasn't traded for. I should've said added, not traded. My bad.

You change what words mean. I should rather say you're the type when selling a house with 800 square feet would not call it "small" you would use the buzzworthy word, "cozy" instead as to not mention the lack of square footage. Speaking to things Kyle has gotten wrong is not "vilifying" him, but it is an interesting and revealing word choice as it shows how you perceive any criticism of him. You see him as being victimized/vilified by questioning his greatness. To you, it is not okay for someone to question him. You are a protector/sycophant. And, every single fanbase has them. The tribalism is easily seen when looking at others, but a blindspot when it comes to your own. To me, you are angry at others who aren't part of the tribe as you are. It is sacrilege to question. I find that dangerous and wrong in so many different ways. I can't/won't ever be like that.

"Identity fandom" is also an issue.

I like Kyle, personally. I think he's got some very good points to him, but when discussing him with someone who sees him as you do, I only really want to speak to the not so good.

BTW, this went sideways once the subject of Nylander being soft was raised. That was never dealt with. I still wish I could get an answer on that one. Is Nylander soft? All I've gotten back is he's not a terrible player which everyone knows. It is this inability to use the proper words to describe what a thing actually is that has taken us to where we are now.

5-year deal for Auston is not "good". What did you spin that into?

11 million for JT's production is a massive overpayment and will only depreciate. A deal has to be judged in totality. What may look good initially can change significantly over time. This one already looks very different than when it was doled out and looks to only get worse from here, but you can't admit that.

The Leafs lost to the 18th team in the NHL and the 6th in the Metro and you can't say that is not good, it is something else entirely. Spin, spin, spin to get away from the crux of the matter. Your devotion to Dubas is typical as it is sad, to me. Putting guys in certain boxes is never good.

Mitch Marner is my favorite player in the NHL. I see many warts and flaws in him. I can enjoy him and his game and recognize he is wanton in many areas. He's an immature boy. I wish he was more mature. I wish he was tougher. I wish his temporary desire to hit more was permanent and had started years ago. I wish he played with a mean streak. I wish it felt more personal to him. Now, a Marner sycophant would debate me on every single point just like you have on Dubas, because the Marner sycophant has him in the same box you have Kyle Dubas. I don't need or want to protect Mitch Marner's honor. He's a great player, but he's far far far from perfect and discussing his flaws is fair and right to do. It makes one objective. He's my favorite player because I recognize the many good things he is, but that doesn't make me a Marner drone who wants to go to other boards to tell others how great I think he is or battle with Leafs fans who would dare ever criticize him. That is how we are different.

 

[Dreakmur]

What does marner have anything to do with it? You often lean on the scouting department the deeper in the draft you go… Obviously Mitch would’ve been highly endorsed by Hunter, but that doesn’t mean Kyle wasn’t on board as well. He’s exactly what Kyle values in high draft picks.
The only thing I heard of varying opinions was Babs wanting Hanifin and the leafs pondering trading back to 7 for the jackets 3 2nd rounders if the coyotes drafted marner instead of Strome.

You can’t blame Hunter for the bad picks and give Dubas credit for the good ones.