Kyle Dubas discussion II

[All Mod Cons]

We'll never know.

 

[riffle]

But you're not speaking to things Dubas has gotten wrong. You've largely just made incorrect statements about the team, the players on the team, Dubas, the things he has done, etc., and then dismissed all of the endless good to focus exclusively on playoff series wins - something you haven't had any consistency about when it comes to other teams and GMs.

Completely incorrect. There's just a massive difference between "questioning him" for legitimate things and what many here are doing.

No. He's not somebody that's going to go in and fight or throw bone-crushing hits, but that doesn't make somebody soft.

There are both positives and negatives to a 5 year term - the most common post-ELC term for a player of that caliber. We have him locked in for less term right now, but it reduced the cap hit to allow us to keep all of our top guys and have more space to build around, on top of it ensuring that the next contract wouldn't stretch into significant decline years.

11 million for a UFA Tavares was not a "massive overpayment" at all (which is why you saw multiple teams offering even more), and he's maintaining quite well.

Of course it's not good that we lost in the playoffs. I'd much rather we had won. But representing it in such a misleading way, and ignoring all context and the actual reasons we lost, and ignoring everything else about this team and what they've done and how we're set up now and into the future, all because you're upset about the fact that it happened, doesn't do anybody any good.

Nylander is not soft to you?

11 million is NOW an overpayment. There is a thing called "term" when it comes to a contract. Strawmen, man. Wait until the next 3 seasons.

As much as you see me as delusional, that is how I see you. Again, nothing personal at all. You're a Leafs fan. I just happen to vehemently disagree with the way you see things but that's what makes the world go 'round. We're not even in the same zip code as to how we see things. Pretty fascinating to me.

EDIT: I do speak to things he's gotten wrong as evidenced by his own admissions. That isn't even enough for you. Nothing is. And, I understand.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Not necessarily. The league is likely heading to a larger cap increase right as Nylander/Matthews contracts are expiring in 2024-25.

Salary cap could go up in 2024-25, just in time for Maple Leafs and Canucks

The expected salary cap increase for the 2024-25 season could prove to be good timing for the Toronto Maple Leafs and the Vancouver Canucks.

www.sportsnet.ca

If this happens the front office will have more wriggle room to fit guys

Muzzin and Brodie contracts also expire at the same time, and Tavares the next year.

 

[Dekes For Days]

11 million is NOW an overpayment.

We're not signing him now. We signed him then to a very reasonable UFA contract. You're going to tend to extract less impact relative to cap hit as UFA contracts age, and the cap has temporarily stagnated because of the pandemic, but Tavares has actually maintained quite well. He's still a high level player, and there's really no reason to think he's due for some significant drop off anytime soon. People act like he's 40 and falling apart. He's 31.

 

[riffle]

We're not signing him now. We signed him then to a very reasonable UFA contract. You're going to tend to extract less impact relative to cap hit as UFA contracts age, and the cap has temporarily stagnated because of the pandemic, but Tavares has actually maintained quite well. He's still a high level player, and there's really no reason to think he's due for some significant drop off anytime soon. People act like he's 40 and falling apart. He's 31.

This is the age when many "power" forwards start their steep decline.

The contract is horrific in the now, and will grow more grotesque as it reaches its endpoint. There is nothing wrong with saying so.

If you could add an 80 point guy to your team for another 11 million do you think we should? I don't.

JT has the 5th highest cap hit in the NHL. Now, go see where he rates in terms of goals, and points. It isn't anywhere near 5th. He is massively overpaid. Not even a debate.

This is not a pretty picture: 3 Leafs in Top 7 and zero playoff success. Can't even win a division title, not that I care.

 

[Dekes For Days]

This is the age when many "power" forwards start their steep decline.

It's funny that you're simultaneously attempting to label him both soft and a power forward, but also no, not really. 31 is not very old, Tavares hasn't dealt with a lot of injuries, and elite players tend to maintain well through this age range.

The contract is horrific in the now

The contract is not "horrific". My god, the dramatics.

JT has the 5th highest cap hit in the NHL. Now, go see where he rates in terms of goals, and points. It isn't anywhere near 5th. He is massively overpaid.

He was not massively overpaid, and that's a ridiculous way to evaluate contracts. Tavares was one of the last elite UFA forwards signed before the pandemic flat cap, so of course he's high on the cap hit list.

 

[riffle]

It's funny that you're simultaneously attempting to label him both soft and a power forward, but also no, not really. 31 is not very old, Tavares hasn't dealt with a lot of injuries, and elite players tend to maintain well through this age range.

The contract is not "horrific". My god, the dramatics.

He was not massively overpaid, and that's a ridiculous way to evaluate contracts. Tavares was one of the last elite UFA forwards signed before the pandemic flat cap, so of course he's high on the cap hit list.

I never said Tavares was soft. I said Nylander was. JT is the age where guys who play his kind of game fall off.

You didn't answer if you think it'd be a good idea to pay 11 million for another 80 point guy. Is it? No. Tavares is an 80 point guy.

If you were the GM and someone told you you could acquire an 80 point player but it would cost you 11 million, you wouldn't do it.

You can parse it any way that makes you feel better but he has the 5th highest cap hit in the league.

Digging into his stats profile a little deeper, I see he is 26th in points per 60 in all situations. Not the Jeff Skinner disaster in Buffalo from yesteryear. Still, a guy with the 5th highest cap hit should give you more. Much more. And, it is likely to get worse from here. So, I would NOT use the word "horrific" again in regards to paying him 11 million. I would use "a poor use of 11 million cap dollars" as it more closely reflects the situation.

Hard looking at these numbers seeing an ascending Kaprizov with over 100 points and only getting better for 9 million per... a deal recently signed. That's a good contract right there, minus the 5-year term. 11 million for JT? Not so good. Too bad JT's term wasn't only 5 years. Naz at 4.5 sure looks like a much better deal.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I never said Tavares was soft. I said Nylander was.

Actually, you accused our entire core of being soft, including Tavares. Then, when it didn't suit your argument anymore, he suddenly turned into a power forward, so you could try and justify your baseless claim that he's about to fall apart. One would think that Dubas acquiring an elite power forward would be something you'd enjoy.

JT is the age where guys who play his kind of game fall off.

No, he's not. He's 31. Fact is that elite players tend to maintain well through the ages that he's signed, especially when not dealing with any chronic injury, and he's shown no sign of an imminent drop off.

You didn't answer if you think it'd be a good idea to pay 11 million for another 80 point guy. Is it?

I wouldn't add another elite forward because we have 4 and there isn't enough cap or roster space for another one. That doesn't change the value that Tavares has added to this team.

You can parse it any way that makes you feel better but he has the 5th highest cap hit in the league.

Yep, and that's totally understandable to anybody that understands how contracts work. Tavares was one of the last elite UFA forwards signed before the pandemic flat cap, so of course he's high on the cap hit list. It doesn't make the contract bad.

Hard looking at these numbers seeing an ascending Kaprizov with over 100 points and only getting better for 9 million per

Not really. He was a mid-20s RFA signing a post-ELC contract after a singular shortened year in the NHL where he was below PPG.

 

[deprw]

They have a big D like the Habs and if they keep the Leafs to the perimeter and Vasi does not give up cheap goals, it won't really be because we got "goalied" but the usual suspects will say it was. Let's hope we do not cross that bridge.

They have big D, but it will be seen are they going to sacrifice their offense for defense, because you have to if you want to limit our chances only to perimeter. You have to play full team defense and that limits your offense. Will they play their own game or counter us. It was pretty clear that Canadiens had to do that and Columbus played that way whole year.

 

[Legion34]

Now that dubas team has set all the reg season records… does he get credit for that or no?

 

[All Mod Cons]

Now that dubas team has set all the reg season records… does he get credit for that or no?

It's hard to tell. Many believe it's actually the fans making the transactions. The fanbase forced the GM to do it, or something like that.

 

[Dreakmur]

Now that dubas team has set all the reg season records… does he get credit for that or no?

Of course he gets credit.

 

[riffle]

Mr Dunning Kruger I don't think you understand how the cap works. If we were to play "cap games" Muzzin would have not been activated until the playoffs and we'd have 5+ mil more cap space to play with at the deadline.

Explain to me in detail the cap game we're playing with Muzzin and Kase, how are we benefiting from this? We're carrying Muzzin's full cap hit for him to play sporadically without being able to bring in an equally priced replacement defender, it's quite literally the opposite of what Vegas/Tampa did in similar situations.

DK? Hilarious. I like when people stumble upon new terminology.

You honestly believe Kase couldn't be playing right now? Why isn't he?

How about Mrazek? You think he's still hurt and they didn't use his injury status to manipulate the cap. Yes, there are legitimate usages of it for injuries, and there are also very illegitimate usages. Honestly, tell me you believe the cap just magically works out year after year and all of it is done with 100% integrity. No Maple Leaf in the Dubas era was ready to return but held out to manipulate the strapped cap? Hey, let's forget about ever, let's talk about RIGHT NOW, too. Can't wait to read your reply.

The audacity to speak to Dunning-Kruger while believing over the last several years that everything just works out perfectly and Dubas/Pridham are just "masterful". You probably applaud recruiters at your college football university of choice, too. All on the up and up. No rules ever broken. Masterful job of recruiting.

 

[Nylanderthal]

DK? Hilarious. I like when people stumble upon new terminology.

You honestly believe Kase couldn't be playing right now? Why isn't he?

How about Mrazek? You think he's still hurt and they didn't use his injury status to manipulate the cap. Yes, there are legitimate usages of it for injuries, and there are also very illegitimate usages. Honestly, tell me you believe the cap just magically works out year after year and all of it is done with 100% integrity. No Maple Leaf in the Dubas era was ready to return but held out to manipulate the strapped cap? Hey, let's forget about ever, let's talk about RIGHT NOW, too. Can't wait to read your reply.

The audacity to speak to Dunning-Kruger while believing over the last several years that everything just works out perfectly and Dubas/Pridham are just "masterful". You probably applaud recruiters at your college football university of choice, too. All on the up and up. No rules ever broken. Masterful job of recruiting.

If a team was withholding healthy players there would be ramifications from the PA and the league, especially Toronto.
Kase got his bill rung pretty hard last time out and mrazek has been dealing with that growing for much of the season. Sounds like more made up imaginary bs from you as per usual.

 

[riffle]

If a team was withholding healthy players there would be ramifications from the PA and the league, especially Toronto.
Kase got his bill rung pretty hard last time out and mrazek has been dealing with that growing for much of the season. Sounds like more made up imaginary bs from you as per usual.

No.

Made up? Uh huh. Yes, every single cap move made by the Leafs was brilliance not cap manipulation. Every. Single. One.

When you're speeding to work tomorrow, and you don't get caught, that means there weren't any ramifications, but it doesn't mean you weren't speeding. In your world you would claim because you didn't get caught that means you weren't actually speeding.

What you call "imaginary" is common place. The Leafs have done it for years.

The irony is you will lament a guy not being available to the Leafs due to "injury" when the real reason you aren't seeing the player you believe is "injured" is the cap won't work if he returns from it. So, what to do...what to do? Extend that injury out as long as you need the cap space for, or are precluded from using it in Kase and Mrazek's case. Leafs ain't the only ones who do it. It is rampant, especially for teams tight against the cap. What do you think happened in Vegas this season? No cap manipulation there? None? Honestly, if that is what you believe, you do not get it.

Listen to Elliotte's tone and words and listen to the laughter in the background. You aren't in on the joke, though, so to speak. And, YES...I understand Muzzin's situation. Big debate was to leave him on LTIR and use his space...BUT...they felt they needed him back playing so they chose not to use his money. It was a decision not based on injury status. It was based on perceived NEED. Leafs got burned on that one. Should've pretended he was injured for longer. Would've been better for the org...but you see this as working out and timing just all aligns perfectly. It's MAGIC!

 

[riffle]

Mr Dunning Kruger I don't think you understand how the cap works. If we were to play "cap games" Muzzin would have not been activated until the playoffs and we'd have 5+ mil more cap space to play with at the deadline.

Explain to me in detail the cap game we're playing with Muzzin and Kase, how are we benefiting from this? We're carrying Muzzin's full cap hit for him to play sporadically without being able to bring in an equally priced replacement defender, it's quite literally the opposite of what Vegas/Tampa did in similar situations.

Would you do me the same solid in return and explain the implications of Keefe's attached post-game comment after the Caps game?

Do you think Kase isn't playing because he's not healthy enough? Or, is the reason he can't play is we don't have the cap space? I'll bet you think his injury will magically be timed up to end when the playoffs start. Such great fortune? Earlier in the season, we would move guys around as needed extending injury times as needed to remain cap compliant. It is not natural...it is all manipulated. Again, tell me why Kase isn't playing? He cant. No cap space to activate him. So, we can't use a player who can help us because of the cap. Make no mistake he 100% could play but only can't due to the cap. It's a dance that goes on year after year.

If the Leafs wanted to bring Kase back and the circumstances were set back 30 games, and Bunting had a larger salary to cover Kase's cap number, Bunting would be shelved to use space to get Kase back and Bunting's injury would be extended out until they could repeat the process. Ain't nobody to do that for poor Kase right now. So Bunting will stay on the cap. All manipulation. All of it. Leafs are harmed often by this manipulation but many see it as just bad injury luck. No. It is cap manipulation tying hands as in the case of Kase right now.

 

[TheRumble]

Do you think Kase isn't playing because he's not healthy enough? Or, is the reason he can't play is we don't have the cap space? I'll bet you think his injury will magically be timed up to end when the playoffs start. Such great fortune? Earlier in the season, we would move guys around as needed extending injury times as needed to remain cap compliant. It is not natural...it is all manipulated. Again, tell me why Kase isn't playing? He cant. No cap space to activate him. So, we can't use a player who can help us because of the cap. Make no mistake he 100% could play but only can't due to the cap. It's a dance that goes on year after year.

Kase has a history of concussions.

You yourself pretended to have a history of concussions before. You should know how it works.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Mr Dunning Kruger , lol.

 

[Gallagbi]

Would you do me the same solid in return and explain the implications of Keefe's attached post-game comment after the Caps game?

Do you think Kase isn't playing because he's not healthy enough? Or, is the reason he can't play is we don't have the cap space? I'll bet you think his injury will magically be timed up to end when the playoffs start. Such great fortune? Earlier in the season, we would move guys around as needed extending injury times as needed to remain cap compliant. It is not natural...it is all manipulated. Again, tell me why Kase isn't playing? He cant. No cap space to activate him. So, we can't use a player who can help us because of the cap. Make no mistake he 100% could play but only can't due to the cap. It's a dance that goes on year after year.

If the Leafs wanted to bring Kase back and the circumstances were set back 30 games, and Bunting had a larger salary to cover Kase's cap number, Bunting would be shelved to use space to get Kase back and Bunting's injury would be extended out until they could repeat the process. Ain't nobody to do that for poor Kase right now. So Bunting will stay on the cap. All manipulation. All of it. Leafs are harmed often by this manipulation but many see it as just bad injury luck. No. It is cap manipulation tying hands as in the case of Kase right now.

I don't see how he couldn't play given were carrying an extra forward and called up Dahlatrom last night. Those two are more than Kase makes.

Also seems odd to suggest the cap magically works out when Dubas took a ton of heat here for playing without a backup. Like most cap strapped teams, there's a lot of maneuvering to ensure it works out. But we've carried a full roster the majority of the year, often with an extra or two, didn't LTIR Muzz when it looked like an obvious cap advantage and both Kase/Mraz were LTIR'd after the deadline when no piece could be added. All of the above seems pretty reasonable

 

[Dekes For Days]

You honestly believe Kase couldn't be playing right now? Why isn't he?

Kase isn't playing because he had a recent concussion after a long history of concussions that almost ended his career. We have the cap for Kase to play.

How about Mrazek?

Mrazek was pulled mid-game a few weeks ago and has a groin injury that took him out for 6 weeks.

Neither of these things benefit the Leafs in terms of their roster or cap, and Mrazek and maybe both won't even be back for the playoffs where there's no cap, so it's really weird that you're accusing them of being fake based on absolutely nothing.

Honestly, tell me you believe the cap just magically works out year after year

It doesn't just "magically work". It takes a lot of planning and maneuvering to make sure we're good with the cap. You just refuse to give Dubas credit for anything, and so just arbitrarily claim that he must be cheating.

 

[zeke]

Would you do me the same solid in return and explain the implications of Keefe's attached post-game comment after the Caps game?

Do you think Kase isn't playing because he's not healthy enough? Or, is the reason he can't play is we don't have the cap space? I'll bet you think his injury will magically be timed up to end when the playoffs start. Such great fortune? Earlier in the season, we would move guys around as needed extending injury times as needed to remain cap compliant. It is not natural...it is all manipulated. Again, tell me why Kase isn't playing? He cant. No cap space to activate him. So, we can't use a player who can help us because of the cap. Make no mistake he 100% could play but only can't due to the cap. It's a dance that goes on year after year.

If the Leafs wanted to bring Kase back and the circumstances were set back 30 games, and Bunting had a larger salary to cover Kase's cap number, Bunting would be shelved to use space to get Kase back and Bunting's injury would be extended out until they could repeat the process. Ain't nobody to do that for poor Kase right now. So Bunting will stay on the cap. All manipulation. All of it. Leafs are harmed often by this manipulation but many see it as just bad injury luck. No. It is cap manipulation tying hands as in the case of Kase right now.

Leafs could activate Kase now with zero cap implications.

 

[ACC1224]

Now that dubas team has set all the reg season records… does he get credit for that or no?

Yes he gets credit by those of us that are honest and level headed.
He will also be held accountable by this same group if they are to falter.

 

[riffle]

Kase has a history of concussions.

You yourself pretended to have a history of concussions before. You should know how it works.

"Pretended". Wow.

Don't worry, he'll magically be over it when the cap goes away in May.

 

[zeke]

"Pretended". Wow.

Don't worry, he'll magically be over it when the cap goes away in May.

Kase can be activated right now with zero cap implications. Why do you have such a hard time with basic facts?

 

[ToneDog]

Leafs could activate Kase now with zero cap implications.

Bunkis was ripping the Leafs for bring Muzzin back rather than putting him on LTIR and acquiring a RWer to play with Tavares using the extra cap space. Leafs probably preferred giving Muzzin a few games to get ready for the playoffs rather than throwing him straight into a playoff series. Given the number of games Muzzin has played between returning from his second concussion and now being out of the lineup, it would have been nice to have added somebody who could ignite Tavares. Kerfoot, Mik, and Willie are not the answer and they refuse to split 16 and 34.