Kyle Dubas discussion II

[Nylanderthal]

I guarantee you would not have this opinion if I was saying something flattering of Kyle Dubas.

Considering the overall good job he’s done you’d be more likely to be correct on some points, so yeah you’re probably right

 

[deprw]

Dubas didn't save his job by finishing 2nd or 3rd in the Atlantic. He needs something positive to happen in Round 1. A sweep or a 5-game series defeat should end his tenure unless Matthews is out. That may save his job.

If Dubas goes, Keefe goes as well. The old grizzled vets in Lou and Babs had this team inclining. The two novices haven't taken it to new heights and as mentioned earlier didn't even make the playoffs 2 years ago.

For me, I'd be ecstatic to see new voices in both roles next season should this team fail, again. As well as at least one of the Big 4 moving on.

The vision starts coming to fruition in May or move on. You can't justify another early playoff exit short of injury.

It's nice you share your fantasies here, but I don't think you have no clue what you're talking about.

 

[Gary Nylund]

It's nice you share your fantasies here, but I don't think you have no clue what you're talking about.

+1

 

[Dreakmur]

Dubas has been very open to learning and evolving, like any GM should, but that doesn't mean recalibrating things that don't need recalibrating. The person I replied to simply misrepresented Dubas' original approach and position on the matter.

The poster pretty accurately described Dubas’ slow learning curve towards appreciating the value of toughness. He still doesn’t fully get it, but he’s making positive progress.

 

[Gabriel426]

4.84 mil for Engvall or Kampf seems steep though.

True true true.

 

[Gallagbi]

The poster pretty accurately described Dubas’ slow learning curve towards appreciating the value of toughness. He still doesn’t fully get it, but he’s making positive progress.

I have some trouble following this logic. Most of the people I've read preaching toughness are the first to suggest playoffs are all that matter. As we've got tougher, our playoff losses have become more surprising and disappointing as we've lost to worse teams, no?

I'll add - I think Dubas was adding toughness in his first year with a guy like Muzzin. I like tough hockey, but they need to be able to play and a lot of our physical players are question marks currently in Simmonds, Muzzin and Clifford who probably don't deserve to dress with a fully healthy roster.

 

[riffle]

It's nice you share your fantasies here, but I don't think you have no clue what you're talking about.

What is a fantasy(ies) I've shared? Insults flow when the rebuttals are difficult

 

[Morbo]

What is a fantasy(ies) I've shared? Insults flow when the rebuttals are difficult

if you read closer he didn't actually insult you

 

[Dreakmur]

I have some trouble following this logic. Most of the people I've read preaching toughness are the first to suggest playoffs are all that matter. As we've got tougher, our playoff losses have become more surprising and disappointing as we've lost to worse teams, no?

I'll add - I think Dubas was adding toughness in his first year with a guy like Muzzin. I like tough hockey, but they need to be able to play and a lot of our physical players are question marks currently in Simmonds, Muzzin and Clifford who probably don't deserve to dress with a fully healthy roster.

Toughness on the fringes of the roster isn't that valuable. You need toughness on the ice when shit goes down, which means you need it at the core of the roster.

Muzzin was a very valuable addition because he was the first player to bring grit into the top half of our line-up. Sucks that he's likely done.

 

[RunItBackAgain]

We keep getting better and he’s not selling the future to do it either. He’s made some mistakes but he’s willing to own them and I’m sure we’ll see some moves made this summer to unload a couple bad contracts and solidify the G position a bit (hopefully a lot lol).

I think we've had a good cup window for about 4 years here but I wouldn’t write off our upcoming cup window once the JT contract expires. Our young stars will be 27-29 and I don’t believe for a second our stars are capped at the age of 24. We will have a ton more experience and likely a whole new cast of supporting players by then.

I’d let Dubas roll with it, I think what he’s done is pretty impressive.

 

[Gallagbi]

Toughness on the fringes of the roster isn't that valuable. You need toughness on the ice when shit goes down, which means you need it at the core of the roster.

Muzzin was a very valuable addition because he was the first player to bring grit into the top half of our line-up. Sucks that he's likely done.

So is he progressing or regressing in his views if we're discounting the bottom of the lineup? Muzzin is the biggest physical addition to play a main role. Outside of that it's been depth players like Simmonds and Clifford, unless you think Foligno was a good add - but I think that's a universally hated move at this point.

 

[IPS]

Toughness on the fringes of the roster isn't that valuable.

Completely disagree. Islanders' 4th line the last 2 playoffs was one of the best things going for them. They even coined it their "identity line".

 

[Dreakmur]

So is he progressing or regressing in his views if we're discounting the bottom of the lineup? Muzzin is the biggest physical addition to play a main role. Outside of that it's been depth players like Simmonds and Clifford, unless you think Foligno was a good add - but I think that's a universally hated move at this point.

I don’t think he added Muzzin for toughness, and he just happened to be tough. I do think that’s the addition that showed Dubas the value he added though.

Healthy Foligno would have been an excellent addition.

Bunting was excellent as well.

 

[Dreakmur]

Completely disagree. Islanders' 4th line the last 2 playoffs was one of the best things going for them. They even coined it their "identity line".

They were listed as the 4th line, but they play significant minutes.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The poster pretty accurately described Dubas’ slow learning curve towards appreciating the value of toughness.

Dubas has not had a "slow learning curve towards appreciating the value of toughness". He's always had a proper appreciation and understanding of "toughness" - even the less impactful forms that many here desire - and has always looked to acquire that quality at every level he's managed and throughout his entire time as NHL GM.

 

[All Mod Cons]

The poster pretty accurately described Dubas’ slow learning curve towards appreciating the value of toughness. He still doesn’t fully get it, but he’s making positive progress.

Yes. It has been very frustrating to wait for the GM to learn, but it's obvious he's taken it on board (maybe from higher up as well?). But at least he has learned that his initial philosophy was incorrect and had the skills to change course.

 

[Leaf Fans]

I am glad Dubas stick to his guns and his vision and has built this team. Hopefully, we will have an excellent playoffs!

 

[ToneDog]

I am glad Dubas stick to his guns and his vision and has built this team. Hopefully, we will have an excellent playoffs!

And if we are eliminated easily by Tampa, should we allow him to run it back again ??

 

[Leaf Fans]

And if we are eliminated easily by Tampa, should we allow him to run it back again ??

Yeah, unless they have someone better. I say that even if the beat Tampa.

 

[Dekes For Days]

We don't have a well-managed cap.

We do have a well-managed cap. We always score well on measures of that. We have our core locked in, we've got no anchors, we've got no contacts stretching into significant decline years, we have cap distributed well and allocated to the right pieces, we have a good stagger on our contract expirations, etc. We've shown an excellent ability to maneuver difficult cap situations multiple times. Just because a team operates at the cap ceiling as a competitive team, it doesn't mean their cap is badly managed.

Fake injuries left and right for years

What are you even talking about? We haven't had any fake injuries. That's not a thing. Both the NHL and insurance companies would come down hard on teams, especially the Leafs.

3 guys account for 33 million.

Great players get paid. All of the contracts were consistent with comparables, and they may take up a considerable portion of our cap, but they're a similarly big part of why we're so good.

Do the playoffs even matter to you

Of course the playoffs matter. Contextless playoff series win/loss record is just not the only thing that matters when evaluating a team or GM, like you seem to think.

Kyle did not make the playoffs every year.

Dubas has made the playoffs every single year he's been GM. Leafs were factually a playoff team in 2020.

Was the team he inherited a playoff team or did he take a team and elevate it?

He inherited a team that made the playoffs in the year prior to him taking over, but also a team that was set up for significant steps backward (immediately departing depth, cap anchors, a barren prospect pool, ELCs ending, etc.). He not only held off the backward slide, but elevated the team far beyond the team he took over, through a flat cap and the numerous barriers that stood in his way.

We aren't set up for the future.

Of course we are. This team is set up to compete for a long time.

When I'm wrong I say so.

But you've been wrong about pretty much everything here, and still refuse to acknowledge it.

A team is judged on playoffs.

A team is judged on more than just the playoffs. A GM is judged on even more than a team.

Have you not paid any attention to what the Leafs have said about this subject this season? They know it is ALL ABOUT THE PLAYOFFS

Of course they're focused on the playoffs. That's the part that's eluded them so far, and that's the ultimate goal. That doesn't mean we ignore everything else when discussing the quality of a team or the performance of a GM.

Dubas didn't save his job by finishing 2nd or 3rd in the Atlantic.

Sorry to disappoint you, but Dubas' job isn't in danger.

 

[ToneDog]

Yeah, unless they have someone better. I say that even if the beat Tampa.

It is really a tough call IMO. Doubt they run it back though. I just hope they do not force a trade as they did, Kadri if a solid deal is not there.

 

[Leaf Fans]

It is really a tough call IMO. Doubt they run it back though. I just hope they do not force a trade as they did, Kadri if a solid deal is not there.

I agree that they shouldn't force a trade, but like changing GMs. If there is someone better out there, the GM should make a trade and not be tied to any players.

 

[ACC1224]

And if we are eliminated easily by Tampa, should we allow him to run it back again ??

Why not? We all know that everything Dubas does is done at the exact proper time. Another loss will just be an extension of that.

 

[Dreakmur]

Dubas has not had a "slow learning curve towards appreciating the value of toughness". He's always had a proper appreciation and understanding of "toughness" - even the less impactful forms that many here desire - and has always looked to acquire that quality at every level he's managed and throughout his entire time as NHL GM.

He still doesn't fully get it. Either he's slowly learning or he's never going to get it. I prefer to be positive.

 

[Stephen]

One of the biggest low key missteps in Dubas' tenure has been rejecting Corey Perry. He looked like a man possessed in the Dallas run to the finals and I thought it would be great to add him. We went with Joe Thornton and Wayne Simmonds instead. At that near league minimum salary we really could have added him. Since then he's scored 59 regular season points, which is more than Wayne Train and Thornton combined (56).

Now we're poised to play him for the second time in as many years.