Kyle Dubas discussion II

[Dekes For Days]

It’s looking like it’s going to be Toronto and Tampa. Campbell could pull it together play lights out and they still could lose the series.

Yeah, but Dubas didn't go out at the trade deadline and make a non-existent trade (with minimal expended assets of course) for a non-existent goalie that would give us the goaltending advantage over the consensus best goalie in the world, so fire him now!

 

[Stephen]

I’ve disagreed with a lot of the ways Dubas has attempted to support the core piece or balanced the cap in the past. There may be some big roster adjustments and cap rebalancing after this years playoffs but generally feel like it’s a work in progress towards good results.

 

[riffle]

Did you think that's helping your argument or something? I'm not sure how you took that normal comment, and somehow twisted it to suggest that Dubas only cares about young, fast, offensive players, and ignores everything else unless forced by somebody else, even though what he actually says about team-building and his entire management history both with the Leafs and before the Leafs contradicts your claim.

How did that not help his argument? Everyone knows Kyle Dubas has created a soft team and a soft culture. These aren't areas of debate regarding him. Even Kyle recognized this. Why do you think Wayne Simmonds and Kyle Clifford are now a part of this roster, when his past mode of operation has spoken to not needing guys who can fight?

Kyle has a very different view on what it means to be tough and he's stated it before:

Notice there is no mention of defending a teammate. That is Jen Botterill thinking to Kyle. That is why you see Willy skating around the net like he often does with the puck when his teammates save for the goalie are engaged. They aren't taught that and it surely isn't instinctive in many of them.

Kyle hasn't even cultivated what is quoted above much less what real toughness is all about in the way of fighting for your teammates.

It's generational, I guess, for the most part. The Tkachuk's are young guys who were taught by their father who knew how to be that kind of player but most of the younger gen don't get that at all. Clearly, that is not a priority with Kyle and it will continue costing him and this organization until he changes, or is removed.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Everyone knows Kyle Dubas has created a soft team and a soft culture.

Except that's not true.

Kyle has a very different view on what it means to be tough and he's stated it before:

View attachment 534166

That's not an abnormal view of what it means to be "tough". That's a very accurate view of the kinds of "toughness" that can actually have impact.

And none of this supports the idea that Dubas only cares about young, fast, offensive players, and ignores everything else unless forced by somebody else. Acquiring Giordano is not an unusual move for Dubas.

 

[riffle]

Except that's not true.

That's not an abnormal view of what it means to be "tough". That's a very accurate view of the kinds of "toughness" that can actually have impact.

And none of this supports the idea that Dubas only cares about young, fast, offensive players, and ignores everything else unless forced by somebody else. Acquiring Giordano is not an unusual move for Dubas.

Explain how it isn't true the Kyle has created a soft team that is a result of a soft culture? You said it was not true, but is is true. The Leafs are a very pampered lot. Did you see Bill Nylander skating around the net just hoping nobody would notice him? Do you recall Auston getting ragdolled by the Habs last playoff with that weird grin on his face like don't take my lunch money, man?

The HC and GM don't want their guys engaging. They preach against it. That is the definition of creating a soft team and it flows from a soft culture. Many fans have bought the nonsense that it is smart not to engage for penalty reasons. Yet, the Leafs are far more penalized than their opponents. This org has turned a truism of toughness and sold some of this fanbase to believe utter nonsense that they're just smart. No, they are soft. Do you recall the Spezza fight vs. CBJ? Turning point. Spezza violated organizational policy and was not "smart", yet, his fight helped keep that series alive.

How many games is Denis Malgin going to see this playoff run? How about Mason Marchment?

When being soft wins, let me know.

 

[colchar]

Yeah, but Dubas didn't go out at the trade deadline and make a non-existent trade (with minimal expended assets of course) for a non-existent goalie that would give us the goaltending advantage over the consensus best goalie in the world, so fire him now!

Yeah, because that was his only miscue.

 

[colchar]

Except that's not true.

Yes actually, it is.

 

[colchar]

Explain how it isn't true the Kyle has created a soft team that is a result of a soft culture? You said it was not true, but is is true. The Leafs are a very pampered lot. Did you see Bill Nylander skating around the net just hoping nobody would notice him? Do you recall Auston getting ragdolled by the Habs last playoff with that weird grin on his face like don't take my lunch money, man?

The HC and GM don't want their guys engaging. They preach against it. That is the definition of creating a soft team and it flows from a soft culture. Many fans have bought the nonsense that it is smart not to engage for penalty reasons. Yet, the Leafs are far more penalized than their opponents. This org has turned a truism of toughness and sold some of this fanbase to believe utter nonsense that they're just smart. No, they are soft. Do you recall the Spezza fight vs. CBJ? Turning point. Spezza violated organizational policy and was not "smart", yet, his fight helped keep that series alive.

How many games is Denis Malgin going to see this playoff run? How about Mason Marchment?

When being soft wins, let me know.

Kyle has spreadsheets telling him that his methods will create a winner.

 

[deprw]

Explain how it isn't true the Kyle has created a soft team that is a result of a soft culture? You said it was not true, but is is true. The Leafs are a very pampered lot. Did you see Bill Nylander skating around the net just hoping nobody would notice him? Do you recall Auston getting ragdolled by the Habs last playoff with that weird grin on his face like don't take my lunch money, man?

The HC and GM don't want their guys engaging. They preach against it. That is the definition of creating a soft team and it flows from a soft culture. Many fans have bought the nonsense that it is smart not to engage for penalty reasons. Yet, the Leafs are far more penalized than their opponents. This org has turned a truism of toughness and sold some of this fanbase to believe utter nonsense that they're just smart. No, they are soft. Do you recall the Spezza fight vs. CBJ? Turning point. Spezza violated organizational policy and was not "smart", yet, his fight helped keep that series alive.

How many games is Denis Malgin going to see this playoff run? How about Mason Marchment?

When being soft wins, let me know.

Example of first you build a straw man and then you burn the straw man.

 

[riffle]

Yeah, but Dubas didn't go out at the trade deadline and make a non-existent trade (with minimal expended assets of course) for a non-existent goalie that would give us the goaltending advantage over the consensus best goalie in the world, so fire him now!

No team traded for a forward who scores goals better than Auston Matthews, so they should've made no moves at all?

It was clear Kyle knew his goalie situation was garbage despite his words to the contrary. He goes overseas and tries his smartest guy in the room schtick, again, and lands Harri Sateri knowing he won't clear waivers, but will give him the cover of being perceived as "trying".

Dreger outs him on the Fleury thing, which was glorious, and he still gets defended for his failure and inaction.

Anyone realize there are more days to make trades than just deadline day? It wasn't like Kyle didn't know for several weeks prior to the deadline his situation in net was dreadful. He knew. He did nothing but preach the same old trash he always preaches about believing in his guys. How that rings true to people after enough run ins with chicken little is beyond me.

 

[riffle]

Example of first you build a straw man and then you burn the straw man.

Where's the straw man? Seems he's real to me. I'm open to hearing how he's really just a figment of my imagination.

 

[The Podium]

Where's the straw man? Seems he's real to me. I'm open to hearing how he's really just a figment of my imagination.

Just curious, where have you been the past 3 weeks. Seems mighty convenient that you magically show up again after a loss.

 

[deprw]

Where's the straw man? Seems he's real to me. I'm open to hearing how he's really just a figment of my imagination.

You accuse GM that acquired Clifford (twice), Simmonds, Muzzin, Lyubushkin, Ritchie, Gabriel etc. for favoring soft players and soft teams only. You paint Nylander as perimeter guy that he isn't. Marlies had guys that could defend their team mates during Dubas years. Facts don't match your straw man.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Explain how it isn't true the Kyle has created a soft team that is a result of a soft culture?

Because not only is our team not soft, and not only do we not have a soft culture, but Dubas specifically has continuously brought in players who would fit under some or all of the various definitions of "tough". He just also puts emphasis on the being able to play hockey part, instead of focusing exclusively on the one narrow definition of "tough" you like that is least impactful.

Did you see Bill Nylander skating around the net just hoping nobody would notice him? Do you recall Auston getting ragdolled by the Habs last playoff with that weird grin on his face like don't take my lunch money, man?

I assume you're talking about Nylander last night, and I saw Nylander engaged a normal amount that you'd want and expect from a player like that. Smart enough to not throw punches or risk injury in a blowout in a regular season game that was relatively meaningless in the standings, but he got in there, grabbed guys, stood up for himself and his teammates. I saw Matthews last playoffs laugh at a player and draw a penalty as their pathetic attempt to intimidate and bait failed horribly. I've also seen a lot more than these cherry picked instances you've misrepresented. You act like other teams are full of all 18 skaters going kamikaze on each other at every opportunity in every game, and that's simply not true.

The HC and GM don't want their guys engaging.

The GM has brought in a number of guys who engage, and both the GM and the HC seem fine when our guys engage or push back. We're obviously trying to build more than just a team full of face-punchers, and we obviously don't want our star players throwing punches and risking injury, but that's just common sense for all GMs and HCs.

Yet, the Leafs are far more penalized than their opponents.

The Leafs actually have a net penalty drawn/taken of 0 this season.

Spezza violated organizational policy

Good lord.

 

[riffle]

Just curious, where have you been the past 3 weeks. Seems mighty convenient that you magically show up again after a loss.

I've been light on posting. Have been dealing with concussion-like symptoms. Some days are better for me than others. Last night was like getting hit in the head all over again.

Not like I wasn't here at all. I was.

I guess if you can't debate the points, question the debater?

 

[Ciao]

I think this is the Kyle Dubas thread, not the Lou Lamoriello thread.

No need to knock Lou here, or anywhere else for that matter. It's all very petty and tiresome.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Yeah, because that was his only miscue.

It's looking like Dubas had one of the best deadlines in the league, so not sure what you even mean. Giordano, Blackwell, and Lyub have been very good additions, especially relative to cost.

Yes actually, it is.

No, actually, it's not.

 

[ACC1224]

I think this is the Kyle Dubas thread, not the Lou Lamoriello thread.

No need to knock Lou here, or anywhere else for that matter. It's all very petty and tiresome.

This guy gets it.

 

[Nylanderthal]

His stated philosophy has always been young, fast offensive players. My feeling is he has been forced to make changes he may or may not agree with.

Good thing your feelings are irrelevant. It couldn’t possibly be that philosophies change as experience is gained? Or could you just also be wrong? He brought in Muzzin his first season as GM

 

[Nylanderthal]

Kyle Dubas quote Toronto Star December 17, 2018, “We want to have skill, we want to be fast, and we want to be competitive. I don’t really think that the way that the league is going that having someone that can come in and fight or anything like that is going to change that. We’ve got a way that we want to play, and we’re just going to carry on with that. In the end, people will judge whether it was effective.”

He traded for muzzin like 5 weeks after that comment.

 

[deprw]

This goalie discussion is tiresome. Fleury wasn't moving to Canada, because his first priority was his family and there was never a price could pay for him. Even if he was coming he was not worth of kings ransom Chicago asked and got eventually.

We could have done something like Niemelä for Kähkönen, but even if you acquire goalie it's not automatic that he can gel with your defense like he should in short time before playoffs. So adding Wedgewood might not have been anything worth for us.

That is something we have to fix next summer and hope Campbell can play whole playoffs.

 

[Gabriel426]

Can you tell me who the best forward and defenseman Lou has acquired via trade or free agency in the past 10 years is?

I got Pageau/Marleau and Zaitsev/Hainsey, am I missing any significant players here?

Do you think that's an acceptable result in a decade of GMing? Gio or Brodie alone >> any defenseman acquired by Lou this decade. Hell even Lyubushkin would give them a run for their money. I believe Bunting just outscored every forward Lou has acquired this decade.

Please, show me the good players Lou has acquired: Lou Lamoriello Trade History - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

You have to go all the way back to Kovalchuk in 2010 to find someone who isn't a mediocre grinder.

Lou trades helped Islanders to Conf Finals.
No doubt Dubas is doing good but if the Leafs going to have another 1st round exit(which I don’t want to see), these trades he did means nothing.
It doesn’t matter if you land McDavid for a 7th rounder if you end up missing or getting knock out in the 1st round of the playoffs the next 10years.
You look at TB, the biggest name they landed was McDonaugh 4-5yrs ago via trades or UFA signings, the rest of the guys they signed or traded were all depth players.
Doing great in UFA period or TDL is not the same as in the playoffs.
I am not saying Lou is the greatest GM in the game now but to say he doesn’t know what he is doing or can’t build for success is a bit of a stretch. Since success in NHL got more to do with drafting and developing and having someone like Brodeur, Sid, Ovie, AM, McDavid in the lineup will make any GM jobs easier. Chia being the outliner.

To me, at present Lou doesn’t seem like someone who wants to wait around for a rebuild even when he was in Toronto. That might be due to his age or just him wanting to win. He is constantly in win now mode.
Dubas on the other hand is building piece by piece and I think only last year when he traded future for immediate success, which was good to see bc it was a good gamble.

 

[Nylanderthal]

How did that not help his argument? Everyone knows Kyle Dubas has created a soft team and a soft culture. These aren't areas of debate regarding him. Even Kyle recognized this. Why do you think Wayne Simmonds and Kyle Clifford are now a part of this roster, when his past mode of operation has spoken to not needing guys who can fight?

Kyle has a very different view on what it means to be tough and he's stated it before:

View attachment 534166

Notice there is no mention of defending a teammate. That is Jen Botterill thinking to Kyle. That is why you see Willy skating around the net like he often does with the puck when his teammates save for the goalie are engaged. They aren't taught that and it surely isn't instinctive in many of them.

Kyle hasn't even cultivated what is quoted above much less what real toughness is all about in the way of fighting for your teammates.

It's generational, I guess, for the most part. The Tkachuk's are young guys who were taught by their father who knew how to be that kind of player but most of the younger gen don't get that at all. Clearly, that is not a priority with Kyle and it will continue costing him and this organization until he changes, or is removed.

I've been light on posting. Have been dealing with concussion-like symptoms. Some days are better for me than others. Last night was like getting hit in the head all over again.

Not like I wasn't here at all. I was.

I guess if you can't debate the points, question the debater?

Better days i.e. leafs lose big time.
Your posts do indicate some brain damage might exist, so excuse checks out.

 

[Dekes For Days]

No team traded for a forward who scores goals better than Auston Matthews, so they should've made no moves at all?

Blaming a playoff loss on a GM not getting a guy who scores goals better than Matthews would be similarly ridiculous.

It was clear Kyle knew his goalie situation was garbage

That's not true at all. Our goalie situation was not and is not "garbage", and there were no meaningful upgrades on what we already had available.

He goes overseas and tries his smartest guy in the room schtick, again, and lands Harri Sateri knowing he won't clear waivers, but will give him the cover of being perceived as "trying".

That's such a misrepresentation of a simple signing of a depth goalie (which he had no way of knowing he'd lose on waivers).

Dreger outs him on the Fleury thing, which was glorious, and he still gets defended for his failure and inaction.

What are you even talking about? I can only assume the leaked trade, but not sure how Chicago making a silly offer and Dubas rejecting it is him being "outed", or what this "Fleury thing" is.

Anyone realize there are more days to make trades than just deadline day?

Yeah, Dubas sure did when he made trades before deadline day.

 

[Gabriel426]

Well during that off season we added Matthews, Marner and Nylander. All +60p rookies, so it really changed our team and we had to throw away loser mentality. You don't want to lose purposely with all your blue chippers on the roster (you can do that if youre Sabres). I think during 15-16 season we preserved Nylander and it was easy decision to keep Marner in the OHL.

Honestly, I know Leafs got AM after we tank but at one point in Jan(I think) the Leafs was only 6 pts from the last playoffs spot and if Willie didn’t got the concussion injury at WJC and could play for the Leafs. Pretty sure Brown would be up too. That results of that season might change.