Kyle Dubas discussion II

[Gabriel426]

Nobody ever said they did.

He's not though. Which is why people can only point to the Islander's mild playoff successes that were very minimally about Lou, instead of talking about what Lou has actually done.

If you were looking for somebody to tear down a team, or you were looking for somebody to strictly find you a goalie, maybe you could argue that Lou would be capable, but he hasn't shown an ability to build towards sustainable success in the cap era.

Hmm, Lou came into the Leafs, signed UFAs and trade them away for picks the following TDL. Then drafted AM and traded for Leafs #1 goalie, I think Lou signed Kadri and Reilly to really good deals but I could be wrong, and made the playoffs, then extended Brown and Hyman to really good deals, he also signed Zaitsev, Marleau and Hanisey too and followed by a 105 pts season.
If he stayed as Leafs GM, I don’t think the Leafs will be struggling to make the playoffs.
Not saying he will do better than Dubas but I doubt a Lou runs Leafs team will have problem making the playoffs over the past three seasons.

I don’t know why you and others would say Lou can’t build toward sustainable success in the cap era. Unless you think Lou would make the Leafs into a playoff bubble team if he remains GM with AM, MM, Reilly, Willie on the team.

Let’s not get into the if Lou remains, he might have traded Willie away or JT won’t sign….bc we never know.

Lastly, drafting and developing is still essential to team building, you can argue Lou’s records of drafting is bad and that I agree bc even with the resources of the Leafs, his drafting records for us are really bad. That might have to do with Hunter but he is the GM and should have some say into whose to draft.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Hmm, Lou came into the Leafs, signed UFAs and trade them away for picks the following TDL.

I think he only did that specifically with one player, but Lou did have his moments as a tear-down GM - which I said. But being a tear down GM isn't that hard. The issues mostly come in the hard part - building up.

Then drafted AM

As much credit as you can give someone for winning a lottery and then going up to a podium and saying the name of the obvious consensus pick.

and traded for Leafs #1 goalie

Trading a 1st+2nd for an unproven goalie and giving him a significant 5 year contract before he plays a game was a very risky move that I'm not sure is entirely advisable, but Andersen had some good years for us, and whether it's luck or talent, Lou does have a knack for stumbling into good goaltending, so credit where it's due.

I think Lou signed Kadri and Reilly to really good deals but I could be wrong, and made the playoffs, then extended Brown and Hyman to really good deals

None of the Kadri, Rielly, Brown, or Hyman deals were special for what they were when they signed. To his credit though, they weren't bad contracts like some of his others.

If he stayed as Leafs GM, I don’t think the Leafs will be struggling to make the playoffs.

Maybe we had enough accumulated talent that if Lou didn't trade our big 3 and if he was able to pull another goaltender out of his hat when Andersen started to falter, we would have made it some of those years, but I do know that people largely overestimate the inevitability of the quality of our team and the successes we have had. This didn't just happen by standing idly by and watching Matthews/Marner/Nylander grow up, and Lou hasn't really shown an ability to do the things that have not only staved off the decline we were set up for, but improved us to this level.

I don’t know why you and others would say Lou can’t build toward sustainable success in the cap era.

Because he hasn't shown that. The few short periods of mild success he's had have largely been a result of riding pieces that were built up before him, and adding good goaltending for a short time before his impacts and decisions have time to ruin it.

 

[Gabriel426]

I think he only did that specifically with one player, but Lou did have his moments as a tear-down GM - which I said. But being a tear down GM isn't that hard. The issues mostly come in the hard part - building up.

As much credit as you can give someone for winning a lottery and then going up to a podium and saying the name of the obvious consensus pick.

Trading a 1st+2nd for an unproven goalie and giving him a significant 5 year contract before he plays a game was a very risky move that I'm not sure is entirely advisable, but Andersen had some good years for us, and whether it's luck or talent, Lou does have a knack for stumbling into good goaltending, so credit where it's due.

None of the Kadri, Rielly, Brown, or Hyman deals were special for what they were when they signed. To his credit though, they weren't bad contracts like some of his others.

Maybe we had enough accumulated talent that if Lou didn't trade our big 3 and if he was able to pull another goaltender out of his hat when Andersen started to falter, we would have made it some of those years, but I do know that people largely overestimate the inevitability of the quality of our team and the successes we have had. This didn't just happen by standing idly by and watching Matthews/Marner/Nylander grow up, and Lou hasn't really shown an ability to do the things that have not only staved off the decline we were set up for, but improved us to this level.

Because he hasn't shown that. The few short periods of mild success he's had have largely been a result of riding pieces that were built up before him, and adding good goaltending for a short time before his impacts and decisions have time to ruin it.

going to end with agree to disagree

 

[Menzinger]

So the team that finished dead last in the 2015-16 season was done rebuilding the moment they landed the 1st overall pick in the 16 draft? Yeah, that doesn't add up.

Fact is they greatly exceeded expectations in 16-17. The rest of it is just revisionist history.

The team stopped trading away vets/and tanking at that moment and shifted to a win now mode starting the Matthews debut season. There was still "building" going on in terms of bringing in a few new players. But the team began shifting to "win now" when it became clear the Leafs team was better. That very tdl in 2016-17 the Leafs front office was trading draft picks for "win now" players rather than moving out older players for picks and prospects.

 

[Lightsol]

But fans have to understand that this team can be in such a worst spot in terms of quality.

That's what I'm afraid of, more than anything. This team has a great foundation, but the Leafs have been here before. Young fans may not know, and old fans may have blocked it out of their memory, but the fact is, the Leafs brass have a long history of OVERcorrecting what they perceive as problems. My greatest fear now is that the last couple of times they've lost patience with a young GM who didn't appear to be figuring things out, the Leafs have corrected by bringing in a guy who was great for them 20+ years ago... Anyone know what Mike Smith is up to these days? Or maybe we'll get another stint with Trader Cliff, even though the last one was one of the worst periods to be a Leaf fan I can remember...

 

[killer1980]

Don't know if ir was Dubas idea but getting Giordano may have been the best acquisition he has made.

 

[deprw]

So the team that finished dead last in the 2015-16 season was done rebuilding the moment they landed the 1st overall pick in the 16 draft? Yeah, that doesn't add up.

Fact is they greatly exceeded expectations in 16-17. The rest of it is just revisionist history.

Well during that off season we added Matthews, Marner and Nylander. All +60p rookies, so it really changed our team and we had to throw away loser mentality. You don't want to lose purposely with all your blue chippers on the roster (you can do that if youre Sabres). I think during 15-16 season we preserved Nylander and it was easy decision to keep Marner in the OHL.

 

[Nylanderthal]

So the team that finished dead last in the 2015-16 season was done rebuilding the moment they landed the 1st overall pick in the 16 draft? Yeah, that doesn't add up.

Fact is they greatly exceeded expectations in 16-17. The rest of it is just revisionist history.

Between the 2016 draft and 2017 deadline they traded a first and a second for a goalie and a 2nd for a rental ufa 4c. That sounds like a team that’s buying to me

 

[Nylanderthal]

Don't know if ir was Dubas idea but getting Giordano may have been the best acquisition he has made.

Why wouldn’t it be his idea?

 

[Dreakmur]

Though his approach has been no different from Lou's in terms of patience/fast tracking (both men obviously have differences in other areas)

In terms of the big pictures, both GMs focused on free agents (Marleau, Tavares, ect) and trading picks at the tdl for win now veteran players.

The Leafs "rebuild" essentially ended the moment Matthews name was called at the draft.

When Matthews’ name was called, we had 6 current players in the organization.

 

[Dreakmur]

Why wouldn’t it be his idea?

Could have been Giordano asking for the move.

Could have been pressed by Shanahan.

 

[Martin Skoula]

going to end with agree to disagree

Can you tell me who the best forward and defenseman Lou has acquired via trade or free agency in the past 10 years is?

I got Pageau/Marleau and Zaitsev/Hainsey, am I missing any significant players here?

Do you think that's an acceptable result in a decade of GMing? Gio or Brodie alone >> any defenseman acquired by Lou this decade. Hell even Lyubushkin would give them a run for their money. I believe Bunting just outscored every forward Lou has acquired this decade.

Please, show me the good players Lou has acquired: Lou Lamoriello Trade History - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

You have to go all the way back to Kovalchuk in 2010 to find someone who isn't a mediocre grinder.

 

[Dave92]

Dubas has lots of good and lots of bad, the regular season portion of his tenure would have to be considered a pretty overwhelming success at least the past 2 seasons.

The playoffs have been an almost unmitigated disaster with the loss to Monteal arguably the worst in franchise history.

He's definitely shown that he's not strictly a numbers guy when it comes to roster construction and i don't think he's doing a bad job, but this soft spineless core that costs 40 million dollars has to be the hill he dies on imo if there's another first round loss and he can't accept that playoff hockey isn't played the way he thinks it should be and a change is needed.

The argument that you can't trade Nylander because he's a good player that has actual trade value is just stupid.

 

[Dreakmur]

Can you tell me who the best forward and defenseman Lou has acquired via trade or free agency in the past 10 years is?

I got Pageau/Marleau and Zaitsev/Hainsey, am I missing any significant players here?

Do you think that's an acceptable result in a decade of GMing? Gio or Brodie alone >> any defenseman acquired by Lou this decade. Hell even Lyubushkin would give them a run for their money. I believe Bunting just outscored every forward Lou has acquired this decade.

Please, show me the good players Lou has acquired: Lou Lamoriello Trade History - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

You have to go all the way back to Kovalchuk in 2010 to find someone who isn't a mediocre grinder.

A GM’s goal is to build the best team, not just acquire the best players. Roles and chemistry are important. I’m glad Kyle Dubas has started to figure that out.

 

[Martin Skoula]

A GM’s goal is to build the best team, not just acquire the best players. Roles and chemistry are important. I’m glad Kyle Dubas has started to figure that out.

Just answer the question, who's the best player he acquired this decade?

 

[Dreakmur]

Just answer the question, who's the best player he acquired this decade?

I don’t even care to look any of this up, but he acquired a vezina-calibre goalie in Toronto.

 

[Martin Skoula]

I don’t even care to look any of this up, but he acquired a vezina-calibre goalie in Toronto.

Wow amazing, he paid market value for a goalie! To complement that goalie he put out Hainsey-Zaitsev-Carrick/Polak RHD core for two years, incredible stuff. Did he do anything to fix our glaring weakness on D? No he got Plekanec and Marleau instead.

Funny how easy it was to actually fix our defense with someone competent in charge.

 

[ACC1224]

Don't know if ir was Dubas idea but getting Giordano may have been the best acquisition he has made.

Either him or I.
We really have no way of knowing for sure but I know which way I would lean.

 

[Dreakmur]

Wow amazing, he paid market value for a goalie! To complement that goalie he put out Hainsey-Zaitsev-Carrick/Polak RHD core for two years, incredible stuff. Did he do anything to fix our glaring weakness on D? No he got Plekanec and Marleau instead.

Funny how easy it was to actually fix our defense with someone competent in charge.

If you think Dubas has done a good job, just say that. By continuing to bring up another GM, you take away from your point and just make yourself look foolish.

 

[Martin Skoula]

If you think Dubas has done a good job, just say that. By continuing to bring up another GM, you take away from your point and just make yourself look foolish.

People keep saying Lou has done a lot of great things, I'm just asking for help identifying which specific acquisitions those are. 10 years is a lot of time to only bring in a couple goalies, Hainsey, Marleau, and Pageau. Help me see what makes him great, is it pretty much just hiring Trotz?

 

[ACC1224]

If you think Dubas has done a good job, just say that. By continuing to bring up another GM, you take away from your point and just make yourself look foolish.

This has always been the problem.
Just let Dubas stand on his own. No need to put down one to prop up another. Seems pretty childish.

 

[Dreakmur]

People keep saying Lou has done a lot of great things, I'm just asking for help identifying which specific acquisitions those are. 10 years is a lot of time to only bring in a couple goalies, Hainsey, Marleau, and Pageau. Help me see what makes him great, is it pretty much just hiring Trotz?

Building a real hockey organization and team is more involved than your experience with NHL 2020.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Building a real hockey organization and team is more involved than your experience with NHL 2020.

Please, all I'm asking for is some highlights of good players Lou has acquired in the past 10 years, surely this must be an easy thing to show me for such a good GM. Just one legitimate top line/top pair player in 10 years, that's not unreasonable to ask right? It can't be that Hainsey/Zaitsev and Pageau/Marleau are the best skaters he acquired since 2012 can it?

 

[Dreakmur]

Please, all I'm asking for is some highlights of good players Lou has acquired in the past 10 years, surely this must be an easy thing to show me for such a good GM. Just one legitimate top line/top pair player in 10 years, that's not unreasonable to ask right? It can't be that Hainsey/Zaitsev and Pageau/Marleau are the best skaters he acquired since 2012 can it?

Sounds like you already know all the players he acquired. Now you need to learn that there’s more to building a team than just adding new players.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Sounds like you already know all the players he acquired. Now you need to learn that there’s more to building a team than just adding new players.

You're right I forgot the critical element of making your players shave, that must be the real secret to success.

Going into the playoffs with a RHD of Hainsey-Zaitsev-Polak/Carrick two years in a row wasn't the problem, it was their stubble. You couldn't solve the problem of having the worst RHD in the league with a trade or signing, that's impossible! The only way to fix that was with the intangible art of "team building" without making any transactions of note other than giving away 2nds for 4th line Cs.