Kyle Dubas discussion II

[Ciao]

If you don't know or follow other teams in thee league to see what their coaches and GMs are doing, you don't know enough to be speaking on matters of whether or not anyone is a good GM/coach.

I'm a hockey fans who's favourite team is the Leafs.

You're a Leafs fan who doesn't watch hockey when the Leafs aren't playing.

So learn to be humble and shut up. You might learn a thing or two. Or you can sit back and be a snarky smartass and be look stupid.

Wow. That's an unwarranted hot take.

You don't have to be an expert on the Islanders to have an opinion on the Leafs.

 

[hotpaws]

So when a piece fits he keeps them and when they don’t he cuts bait and somehow this is now a negative?

never said it was a positive or negative , i just said the support pieces are constantly moving which they are and which you disagreed with

now your trying to shift your way out of it

 

[Gabriel426]

Decades ago, in an entirely different NHL with no cap**

True but not like Lou and Devils outspend most teams to win Cups.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Rebuilding is not tanking. We were to good to tank, yes, but that doesn’t mean we we’re done with the development phase.
Dubas tried to fast-track it and you’ve witnessed the results.

Rebuilding is largely tanking. Some of the players on our team were young and still had development left, but that doesn't change that we had moved into a phase where we were trying to win, and our moves were geared towards immediate success and improvement over building for the future. Signing Tavares was not an ideological shift from what Lou had been doing and trying to do for a full two years prior. The rebuild was over long before then.

 

[Gary Nylund]

At the time Rielly signed he had topped 30 points once with a 9 G 27 A 36 PT campaign and signed for $5 M per year. One might like to think maybe Lou thought he was signing on the low and being shrewd but then he gave almost the exact same deal to Zaitsev ($4.5 M) who just so happened to have exactly the same amount of points.

At the time Kadri signed his best was 20 G 30 A 50 PTS and he signed for $4.5 .

Marner of course signed after putting up 94 points during his ELC, something only a couple people have ever done. Was the amount high? Sure. The feat was almost unheard of too. He's followed that up with 95 points in 68 games while being the top PK guy on one of the top PK units. I can't speak for anyone else but I figured Marner would probably get $8.5 before he put up 94.

This said, Rielly has now shown himself 70+ point capable more than once. IMO we have him at a lower value than his proven production. What does Kadri get now that he has proven what he can do?

Marner's deal was more than just high, it was absolutely shocking IMO. I was driving when I heard on the radio and was lucky I didn't read end somebody.

Fair point about Zaitsev. Lou, like Dubas, and like every other GM in history did some good stuff, and also some stuff that was not so good. Z's deal came later though correct? And that was before flat cap so inflation mitigates those numbers, not a lot but at least a little bit.

Good question about Kadri. I said a few months ago already that his next contract is probably the most intriguing question for the upcoming off-season (honorable mention to Johnny hockey).

 

[ToneDog]

True but not like Lou and Devils outspend most teams to win Cups.

Remind me again how many cups our rich franchise won decades ago in an entirely different NHL with no cap while Lou won 2 cups for a budget team that Wayne called a Mickey Mouse franchise ? Amazing how some refuse to give Lou credit for winning two cups when we have not been able to win one since Confederation. Embarassing.

 

[Nylanderthal]

True but not like Lou and Devils outspend most teams to win Cups.

Drafting the goalie of a generation late in the first and being awarded a Norris trophy winning hof D man for losing your own FA in times before FA was really a things is some serious dumb luck.
Also being gifted neidermeyer by the leafs didn’t hurt either.

 

[Gabriel426]

Remind me again how many cups our rich franchise won decades ago in an entirely different NHL with no cap while Lou won 2 cups for a budget team ? Amazing how some refuse to give Lou credit for winning two cups when we have not been able to win one since Confederation. Embarassing.

Exactly. Some here think winning Cups were easy before the Cap era as long as the team got money to spend, but Leafs didn’t win any during that era. If anything, I think Lou deserves more credits for winning Cups in an era where teams can outspend their opponents while winning on a budget team.

 

[Gabriel426]

Drafting the goalie of a generation late in the first and being awarded a Norris trophy winning hof D man for losing your own FA in times before FA was really a things is some serious dumb luck.
Also being gifted neidermeyer by the leafs didn’t hurt either.

If we are going to use drafting Brodeur and Scott N as a reason to put down Lou than same can be said about having AM, MM, Willie and signing JT-biggest UFA as reason to discredit Dubas too.

I am not saying Lou is the greatest but you cannot discredit him as an Hockey Executive.

 

[ToneDog]

Drafting the goalie of a generation late in the first and being awarded a Norris trophy winning hof D man for losing your own FA in times before FA was really a things is some serious dumb luck.
Also being gifted neidermeyer by the leafs didn’t hurt either.

LOL. I knew it would not be long for somebody to crow in with Brodeur. We drafted Drake Fricken Berhowsky 10th while Lou takes Brodeur 10 picks later. So who is the smart one and who are the dummies? Oh yeah, must be pure dumb luck something we have never had until we drafted Matty. Come on, does it really hurt to give Lou some credit ??

Yet it is OK to worship Dubas who inherited Matty, Mitch, Willie, Rielly, Andersen, Kadri and can't win a round. Embarrassing.

 

[Gutchecktime]

LOL. I knew it would not be long for somebody to crow in with Brodeur. We drafted Drake Fricken Berhowsky 10th while Lou takes Brodeur 10 picks later. So who is the smart one and who are the dummies? Oh yeah, must be pure luck something we have never had until we drafted Matty. Come on, does it really hurt to give Lou some credit ??

Yet it is OK to worship Dubas who inherited Matty, Mitch, Willie, Rielly, Andersen, Kadri and can't win a round. Embarrassing.

Marner was drafted before Lou was hired while Dubas was co-GM. It was Lou that inherited Mitch.

 

[ToneDog]

Marner was drafted before Lou was hired while Dubas was co-GM. It was Lou that inherited Mitch.

Marner was on the 105 point team when Dubas was officially made GM.

 

[deprw]

Reading the landscape is going all in on a team that was clearly not worthy. Kyle stood pat on the team that lost to Ayres which was the correct move.

Blowing hot air much, we lost two of our five most important players during that series against Canadiens. We should have won that nevertheless. Still it was perfect time to go all-in and gear up for long spring. Matthews and Marner let us down, if you want to blame someone.

I hope we got some important lessons from last year. Costly lessons, but I wouldn't blame Dubas. Tavares played like 2 minutes in that series?

 

[deprw]

Muzzin/Gio/Tavares scream future long term success ?

I'm sure every new GM hire would love to inherit barely 20 year old elite players and then have many of the fan base give him/her/they credit for having a long term strategy , lol

Don't know if you watch hockey, but usually good teams have experienced and young elite players. Examples are from 90s Detroit to 2010s Chicago or LA Kings. You can Google those teams if you have times from trolling.

 

[Dekes For Days]

True but not like Lou and Devils outspend most teams to win Cups.

I mean, they were average to above average in spending, but they were stacked with HOFers and one of the best goaltenders of all time. The main point is that team accomplishments from decades ago in a league where team-building looked very different doesn't have much relevance to how the GM operates in the present within the current environment.

 

[ToneDog]

I mean, they were average to above average in spending, but they were stacked with HOFers and one of the best goaltenders of all time. The main point is that team accomplishments from decades ago in a league where team-building looked very different doesn't have much relevance to how the GM operates in the present within the current environment.

Remind us how many playoff series wins Kyle and Lou have in the past 4 years ?? You know in an era that counts.

 

[Gutchecktime]

Marner was on the 105 point team when Dubas was officially made GM.

Yes, because he drafted him?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Remind us how many playoff series wins Kyle and Lou have in the past 4 years ?? You know in an era that counts.

That's shifting the goalposts from what the discussion was about, and my response to your post is I don't care, because "how many series wins did your team get while your GM happened to be there bro?" is a stupid way to evaluate GMs. It says very little about how the GM is performing at his duties or how much they contributed to that result. Also, if team end objective is all you care about, team end objective is a cup (which neither have), not "playoff series wins".

 

[Dreakmur]

With one more win, possibly our third franchise record this week alone?

Oh, I forgot we want the President’s Trophy instead of the Stanley Cup.

 

[Dreakmur]

Lou was the one fast tracking by not selling off FA’s spending 2nds on 4th line C’s (bad ones at that too) signing 38 year old middle 6 wingers to 3 year deals at 6+M. Extending bottom pairing D for 7 seasons. Trading a first and second for an unproven goalie

Oh Lou made some mistakes too, there’s no doubt. Trading picks for playoffs runs and holding onto pending UFAs we’re mistakes. Marleau was joy one of them.

Lou did a generally good job. Dubas is doing a generally good job.

The problem on these boards is that the Dubas brigade want to pretend he does no wrong and everything wrong with the team is Lou’s fault somehow.

 

[ToneDog]

Yes, because he drafted him?

I believe Hunter drafted Marner at the draft but I guess that is up for debate. Hunter was in charge of the draft. I have no inside info as to what role Dubas played in drafting Mitch. Hunder does get blame/full credit for passing on Debrincat for Korshkov and passing on Konekny though.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Oh, I forgot we want the President’s Trophy instead of the Stanley Cup.

I think the "expected" cup was the primary goal, even more important than the real thing. Something to do with being a better measure of quality of team or something something something ...

 

[ToneDog]

That's shifting the goalposts from what the discussion was about, and my response to your post is I don't care, because "how many series wins did your team get while your GM happened to be there bro?" is a stupid way to evaluate GMs. It says very little about how the GM is performing at his duties or how much they contributed to that result. Also, if team end objective is all you care about, team end objective is a cup (which neither have), not "playoff series wins".

LOL shifting the goalposts. You dissed Lou winning cups in a non cap era so when asked how many playoff series Kyle and Lou have won in the last 4 years, it is moving the goalposts. You are truly a beauty.

 

[ToneDog]

I think the "expected" cup was the primary goal, even more important than the real thing. Something to do with being a better measure of quality of team or something something something ...

We won the North and nobody can ever take that away from us.

 

[ToneDog]

Oh Lou made some mistakes too, there’s no doubt. Trading picks for playoffs runs and holding onto pending UFAs we’re mistakes. Marleau was joy one of them.

Lou did a generally good job. Dubas is doing a generally good job.

The problem on these boards is that the Dubas brigade want to pretend he does no wrong and everything wrong with the team is Lou’s fault somehow.

Probably trolling those that give Lou some credit while he was GM. Amazing how many minions as francis called them pile on.

Makes me wonder, did Lou have/need a group of boomers/dinos that defended his every move while he was GM of the Leafs ?? If he did, have those posters moved to the Isles board ??