Kyle Dubas discussion II

[Gutchecktime]

so then we agree he's tinkered around the edges

Bizarre. Just bizarre. The whole team sans 5 players ain’t tinkering.

 

[Dreakmur]

Marleau was a problem the minute it was signed, and everybody including the people who signed it knew so. Bad contracts don't suddenly become not bad contracts because a GM could theoretically just decide to sabotage their team, reject signing an elite player, leave departing players unreplaced, and waste their superstar's ELC years - all to hang on to a massively overpaid on-ice liability.

Tavares didn't warp anything, and the idea that signing Tavares was this massive shift in philosophy is pretty hilarious as well, since Lou essentially tried to do the same thing, but just failed miserably at it. He tried to sign Stamkos, and then when that failed, he turned to overpaying and giving a poison pill term to a 38-year old winger (our most stacked position by far) on his last legs. And we were not in a rebuild when Tavares was signed. That went out the window when we had made the playoffs, kept expiring players, and spent assets on rentals for 2 years in a row.

Zaitsev is not a second pair defenseman and both Holl and Lyubushkin are better than him, at a much lower cost. Zaitsev wouldn't make our defense right now.

No, he wasn't. He was already dragging down every line he went on in his 2nd year, and was being massively overutilized by the coach over far superior options. Even just having him on the team would have made us worse, before even getting into the negative impacts of removing Tavares to do it.

The rebuild was still going until we signed Tavares.

 

[Nylanderthal]

When evaluating Dubas, rather than break his moves down one by one where you will find a mix of good and bad moves I think it’s best to take a simplistic approach to this. He inherited arguably the most promising young team in the league and hasn’t won a playoff series yet, that is unacceptable. This year it’s do or die. Either you win a series or your gone. I understand that there’s no shame in losing to Tampa but you had your chances against easier teams like MTL and Columbus and blew it so now you are do or die against Tampa.

I forgot the game tape of Kyle on the ice puking up on himself. How about holding the players accountable? The GM’s job is to put the team in the best position to win. He did that and has done so much good work while adjusting philosophy on the fly as he learns more about the league and his team.
Biggest mistake ownership can make is to change directions mid steam, that’s for teams on their way down the standings

 

[hotpaws]

Those were all good deals and I've given him credit for those. The Andersen one was a gamble at the time as he was not a proven starter but thankfully it paid off.

I do have a question for you though. How come you are able to acknowledge in your post that you win some and lose some, but all I've seen you do in this thread and the many others is absolutely shit on everything Dubas does even though he has clearly done a pretty good job of balancing out the roster despite his mistakes? We've had the best regular season ever and you're being so negative.

first i'm thrilled at the season we're having and discussing Dubies moves is not being negative

there's few if any magically GM's that can turn crap into gold , all make good and bad moves and unless they get hired to an expansion team they're forced to take over the hand there predecessors were playing for good or bad

i was a tank and draft person when i looked at where this team was , i'm not going to give any GM praise for bottoming out and winning a lottery but i will give Lou props for doing a good job of tearing it down and accumulating assets without having to take long term anchors back , i will also give him props for where he left the team cap wise overall

so now i'll move on to Dubas , didn't like the JT signing nor the deals to M and M , didn;t like how he low balled and extended Willies negotiations , his drafts could be very good , we'll see , the problem with them is there's too much of the same type of prospects

up until this year he kept acquiring pieces without them being good fits , he has a bit of a spam mentality in that he likes to sign a large amount of fringe players and hope something sticks which is fine because most you can bury and don't affect the cap

Bunting has panned out and Kampf has came as advertised , he'd be better on the 4th line but the third line works well so no complaints . I was always high on Mik so good on Dubas for getting him to sign here . I never crapped on Engvall since i don't expect some perfect player at his cap hit or where he was drafted and he's started to play very well .

Gio was a good deadline move , he didn't come cheap but he fits well and still has gas in the tank , Baboska ain't much of a player but he was a needed depth piece and has added to the team .

basically it's M and M upping there games to elite level and the teams pieces better suited to support them which has given us the season we're enjoying

so when i keep reading how some want to heap praise on Dubie and crap on everyone that cam before him like somehow he waived his magic wand and turned crap into gold i just try to give a different view point

 

[hotpaws]

Bizarre. Just bizarre. The whole team sans 5 players ain’t tinkering.

it is when those pieces constantly move

 

[Nylanderthal]

it is when those pieces constantly move

What? Lol

 

[hotpaws]

What? Lol

the pieces around our core aren't constantly moving ? maybe take a look at the last 4 years

 

[Dekes For Days]

The rebuild was still going until we signed Tavares.

The rebuild was over the second we drafted Matthews.

From that point on, we had no hope of finishing low enough to make rebuilding a viable strategy.
From that point on, we made the playoffs every year.
From that point on, we stopped selling off good players.
From that point on, we kept expiring contracts as own rentals.
From that point on, we attempted to sign big free agents and spent considerable money in UFA.
From that point on, we spent assets on rentals, and a 1st+2nd to acquire a goaltender.

We were far past rebuilding by 2018.

 

[TMLegend]

Kept all his top prospect and hit on mid-late round picks…

The difference between a late 1st and late 2nd is a lot closer than an mid 1st and a late 1st.

It’s not really pissing away futures of your prospect pool is still in great shape.

People are just hung up on the rebuild model because the Leafs haven’t been a contender in decades.

Doesn't have anything to do with the "rebuild model". And you can't say he's hit on his picks until they actually do something in the NHL. Wasn't that long ago many thought prospects like Jeremy Bracco, Connor Brown, Andreas Johnsson, Dmytro Timashov, Andrew Nielsen, were being hyped up as being impact players for the Leafs.

Is that a pessimistic view? Yeah, kind of. But the point is most of the prospects that are being hyped today aren't going to become impact players many hope they will and we won't know the Jeremy Braccos and Connor Browns from this crop until several years down the road.

 

[Nylanderthal]

the pieces around our core aren't constantly moving ? maybe take a look at the last 4 years

Not every piece no, and so what? Now that’s a negative? So are they supposed to sit on their hands accepting unparalleled failure as you would put it? I don’t see the issue with moving on from a piece that doesn’t fit the puzzle. Some might even consider being able to identify and move out those pieces and not double down on mistakes as a positive attribute.

 

[Nylanderthal]

The rebuild was still going until we signed Tavares.

Sweet Lou literally kept his expiring UFA’s and traded away top 60 picks and prospects in b2b TDL’s for 4th line centres prior to Kyle signing JT

 

[Nylanderthal]

Doesn't have anything to do with the "rebuild model". And you can't say he's hit on his picks until they actually do something in the NHL. Wasn't that long ago many thought prospects like Jeremy Bracco, Connor Brown, Andreas Johnsson, Dmytro Timashov, Andrew Nielsen, were being hyped up as being impact players for the Leafs.

Is that a pessimistic view? Yeah, kind of. But the point is most of the prospects that are being hyped today aren't going to become impact players many hope they will and we won't know the Jeremy Braccos and Connor Browns from this crop until several years down the road.

Connor Brown is a good nhl player, definitely a success story relative to draft position. The rest of those guys were drafter under Hunter or even before so I’m not sure how much weight your opinion holds tbh

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Kadri and Rielly's contracts were if not "team friendly", then at least on the low end of the expected range. Marner's contract on the other hand was a substantial shock to my system when it was announced. I'd bet a TON that if you went back and read the posts here speculating on what he might be signed for, not one person thought he would get the kind of contract he did.

At the time Rielly signed he had topped 30 points once with a 9 G 27 A 36 PT campaign and signed for $5 M per year. One might like to think maybe Lou thought he was signing on the low and being shrewd but then he gave almost the exact same deal to Zaitsev ($4.5 M) who just so happened to have exactly the same amount of points.

At the time Kadri signed his best was 20 G 30 A 50 PTS and he signed for $4.5 .

Marner of course signed after putting up 94 points during his ELC, something only a couple people have ever done. Was the amount high? Sure. The feat was almost unheard of too. He's followed that up with 95 points in 68 games while being the top PK guy on one of the top PK units. I can't speak for anyone else but I figured Marner would probably get $8.5 before he put up 94.

This said, Rielly has now shown himself 70+ point capable more than once. IMO we have him at a lower value than his proven production. What does Kadri get now that he has proven what he can do?

 

[hotpaws]

Not every piece no, and so what? No that’s a negative? So are they supposed to sit on their hands accepting unparalleled failure as you would put it? I don’t see the issue with moving on from a piece that doesn’t fit the puzzle. Some might even consider being able to identify and move out those pieces and not double down on mistakes as a positive attribute.

me - the pieces around the core are constantly moving

you - what , lol ?

me - take a look at the roster the last 4 years

you - post above agreeing there constantly moving , lol

 

[Apex Predator]

Reading this thread!

 

[Nylanderthal]

me - the pieces around the core are constantly moving

you - what , lol ?

me - take a look at the roster the last 4 years

you - post above agreeing there constantly moving , lol

My first sentence says not every piece, good try though. You’re welcome to try again big guy

 

[hotpaws]

Sweet Lou literally kept his expiring UFA’s and traded away top 60 picks and prospects in b2b TDL’s for 4th line centres prior to Kyle signing JT

did you happen to notice the expiring contracts Dubie kept and let walk or what Dubas gave up for a washed up injured Foligno last year ? lol

 

[TMLegend]

Connor Brown is a good nhl player, definitely a success story relative to draft position. The rest of those guys were drafter under Hunter so I’m not sure how much weight your opinion holds tbh

Never said he wasn't. The point is he's not a star or a great top-6 option despite having great production prior to the NHL.

Also FTR, I actually like most of Dubas's picks, especially the defensemen he's picked. His borderline obsession with picking undersized players bugs the #$%^ out of me, however.

 

[hotpaws]

My first sentence says not every piece, good try though. You’re welcome to try again big guy

a player or two were also kept , you got me , lol

 

[Dreakmur]

The rebuild was over the second we drafted Matthews.

From that point on, we had no hope of finishing low enough to make rebuilding a viable strategy.
From that point on, we made the playoffs every year.
From that point on, we stopped selling off good players.
From that point on, we kept expiring contracts as own rentals.
From that point on, we attempted to sign big free agents and spent considerable money in UFA.
From that point on, we spent assets on rentals, and a 1st+2nd to acquire a goaltender.

We were far past rebuilding by 2018.

Rebuilding is not tanking. We were to good to tank, yes, but that doesn’t mean we we’re done with the development phase.

Dubas tried to fast-track it and you’ve witnessed the results.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Sweet Lou literally traded away top 60 picks and prospects in b2b TDL’s for 4th line centres prior to Kyle signing JT

And held on to players like JVR/Bozak instead of selling them for picks. And traded away a 1st+2nd for a goaltender. And tried to sign Stamkos. Did sign Marleau to a huge contract from free agency, among others. Etc.

It's baffling how somebody could attempt to argue a team consistently making the playoffs is rebuilding. What the heck are you rebuilding with low 1sts?

I know Lou largely failed at taking advantage of one of the best collections of ELC talent in the cap era, but that was a lack of competence, not a lack of trying.

 

[zeke]

we won't know the Jeremy Braccos and Connor Browns from this crop until several years down the road.

to be fair, we knew that pretty early on.

Age 19

Brown OHL: 68gms, 45gls, 128pts (82gms, 54gls, 154pts)
Bracco OHL: 57gms, 25gls, 83pts (82gms, 36gls, 119pts)

Age 20

Brown AHL: 76gms, 21gls, 61pts (82gms, 23gls, 66pts)
Bracco AHL: 50gms, 6gls, 32pts (82gms, 10gls, 53pts)


With Brown being a gritty all-situations player and Bracco being a one dimensional floater - it should have been pretty clear that Brown was the better prospect.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Rebuilding is not tanking. We were to good to tank, yes, but that doesn’t mean we we’re done with the development phase.

Dubas tried to fast-track it and you’ve witnessed the results.

Lou was the one fast tracking by not selling off FA’s spending 2nds on 4th line C’s (bad ones at that too) signing 38 year old middle 6 wingers to 3 year deals at 6+M. Extending bottom pairing D for 7 seasons. Trading a first and second for an unproven goalie

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Rebuilding is not tanking. We were to good to tank, yes, but that doesn’t mean we we’re done with the development phase.

Dubas tried to fast-track it and you’ve witnessed the results.

With one more win, possibly our third franchise record this week alone?

 

[Nylanderthal]

a player or two were also kept , you got me , lol

So when a piece fits he keeps them and when they don’t he cuts bait and somehow this is now a negative?