Kyle Dubas discussion II

[Leaf Fans]

you should tell Zeke that since he's the one who said Dubie only made moves for future long term success

Zeke has his own opinions sometimes we agree and sometimes we don't. Zeke understands advanced stats while I am ignorant of them and I don't really have the desire to learn them. However, Zeke definitely looks at the team's present construction and is aware of the franchise record stetting season we are currently involved in.

 

[TheRumble]

and our core still has remained our core

Just to be clear, you are mad at Dubas because he hasn't broken up the part or all of the core - which I presume is Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Rielly and Tavares? I can't tell since all your posts are snarky esponses with zero information or good faith arguments.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Well, a quick google search would help

He acquired a shitload of picks leading up to the 2016 deadline. I mean, getting two 2nds for Nick Spaling and Roman Polak could be considered a huge win. Daniel Winnik for Connor Carrick and a 2nd. Unfortunately Hunter shit the bed with those 2nds.

Moved Phaneuf without retaining. Signed Mo and Kadri to team friendly deals.

We can enjoy our current roster without shitting on the previous guys.

Those weren't "team friendly deals", they were what they could command based on what they had produced. That's like saying MacKinnon signed a team friendly deal. Look at his production prior to signing.

 

[Gutchecktime]

I still think at the end of the day the entire hockey world said it was going to be impossible to resign the big 4, resign Rielly and still upgrade the D/bring in the forward depth needed… and he managed to resign the core, bring in Gio, Brodie, Muzzin, and still leave us with a healthy prospect pool.

Sure, you need to get it done when it matters but I find it hard not to say that he hasn’t done great work overall.

Acting like keeping the core together was obvious is a bit silly - the prevailing wisdom from the hockey world was that you had to break it up.

 

[The Podium]

It's set up to be elite long term because the Leafs core guys are all under 30. Not because of long-term planning as Dubas has pissed away tons of futures the last few years.

Kept all his top prospect and hit on mid-late round picks…

The difference between a late 1st and late 2nd is a lot closer than an mid 1st and a late 1st.

It’s not really pissing away futures of your prospect pool is still in great shape.

People are just hung up on the rebuild model because the Leafs haven’t been a contender in decades.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

It's set up to be elite long term because the Leafs core guys are all under 30. Not because of long-term planning as Dubas has pissed away tons of futures the last few years.

....and he fills out the club with guys like Sandin, Niemela, Amirov (?), Knies, Robertson. It helps when you seem to pretty regularly land guys who would go higher in re-draft.

 

[zeke]

He was a 24 year old Dman that put up 36 points as a rookie, so I can see why there was potential there and to get him locked up but like I said 7 yrs for a 1 yr sample was pretty dumb.

The Marleau contract was one of worst ones all time

but even in that one year sample the analytics screamed that he was actually terrible, despite the fact that he put up a bunch of secondary assists on a stacked PP unit.

jesus i just remembered that Babcock actually had Zaitsev on the PP instead of Rielly. my god.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Let the Kings even make the playoffs first and/or have even one youngster playing at a top line level before telling me they're set up for longterm success.

The Rangers? They have only 2 youngish guys in their current impact core in Fox and Shesterkin, with the rest of their current core made up of 29/30/31yr olds with big contracts deep into their mid to late 30s in Panarin/Ziba/Kreider/Goodrow/Trouba.

The Kings are already in a playoff position, and their numerous elite prospects and young players still have many years of growth ahead and project quite well.

The Rangers have Kakko/Lundkvist/Lafreniere/Miller/Othmann etc in the pipeline (or already on the team) ready to take over for their current core in a couple years, while Fox and Shesterkin are the elite/young current core pieces that will ride both waves, so to speak.

 

[zeke]

we weren't discussing which teams had players signed until there late 30's , we were discussing building for future success

so tell me again how trading 2 x 2nds and a 3rd for 38 year old D and giving out long term deals to players who are going to regress building for future long term success

We were actually discussing the fact that this Leafs team is both elite right now and perfectly set up up be elite longterm.

 

[TheRumble]

I like how we have one poster here saying that the Rangers are the model to follow.

The Rangers won two draft lotteries - including one longshot, had the most coveted 2019 free agent (Panarin) turn down a $12 million dollar deal with their home team to sign a smaller deal with the Rangers, and had a Norris quality defenceman sign with them because he spent four years in college which negated Calgary's draft rights over him. And to top it off, the previous regime drafted the best young goalie in the league 8 years ago for them.

It's so easy. Every team can do it.

I have a better idea, why don't we do what the 90's Red Wings did and just stack our team with 10 Future Hall of Famers?

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

The Kings are already in a playoff position, and their numerous elite prospects and young players still have many years of growth ahead and project quite well.

The Rangers have Kakko/Lundkvist/Lafreniere/Miller/Othmann etc in the pipeline (or already on the team) ready to take over for their current core in a couple years, while Fox and Shesterkin are the elite/young current core pieces that will ride both waves, so to speak.

So like the Leafs but the Leaf core is younger?

 

[zeke]

and our core still has remained our core

Yes our 5 best players have remained our 5 best players, and one of if not the best Top-5 group of teammates in hockey.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

For the record - the Zaitsev contract was awful on day one according to the analytics. Of course back then poor dumb zeke was skeptical of the analytics and thought they weren't accurate when it came to Zaitsev. That was dumb. Lesson learned.

He was a 24 year old Dman that put up 36 points as a rookie, so I can see why there was potential there and to get him locked up but like I said 7 yrs for a 1 yr sample was pretty dumb.

The Marleau contract was one of worst ones all time

 

[zeke]

Acting like keeping the core together was obvious is a bit silly - the prevailing wisdom from the hockey world was that you had to break it up.

heh. yep.

"All he did was keep the core that everyone has been screaming he had to blow up"

 

[hotpaws]

Zeke has his own opinions sometimes we agree and sometimes we don't. Zeke understands advanced stats while I am ignorant of them and I don't really have the desire to learn them. However, Zeke definitely looks at the team's present construction and is aware of the franchise record stetting season we are currently involved in.

and this is all well and good but has nothing to do with the discussion me and Zeke were having

 

[Morbo]

It's been mentioned about 86 times already, that's just an estimate of course but yeah, not sure how anyone could have missed all those posts.

who said that? we're talking about proportions here. the Isles are shit but every other post is GM of the year Lou.

I don't even care about him anymore, but the love affair with him and Mark Hunter(lol!!) continues for a lot of people here.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Well, a quick google search would help

He acquired a shitload of picks leading up to the 2016 deadline. I mean, getting two 2nds for Nick Spaling and Roman Polak could be considered a huge win. Daniel Winnik for Connor Carrick and a 2nd. Unfortunately Hunter shit the bed with those 2nds.

Moved Phaneuf without retaining. Signed Mo and Kadri to team friendly deals.

We can enjoy our current roster without shitting on the previous guys.

Yup, Lou definitely did some good things while he was here. Some people may have forgotten about them (or they choose to ignore them) but it's true.

Zeke has his own opinions sometimes we agree and sometimes we don't. Zeke worships advanced stats while I am ignorant of them and I don't really have the desire to learn them. However, Zeke definitely looks at the team's present construction and is aware of the franchise record stetting season we are currently involved in.

FYP.

Those weren't "team friendly deals", they were what they could command based on what they had produced. That's like saying MacKinnon signed a team friendly deal. Look at his production prior to signing.

Kadri and Rielly's contracts were if not "team friendly", then at least on the low end of the expected range. Marner's contract on the other hand was a substantial shock to my system when it was announced. I'd bet a TON that if you went back and read the posts here speculating on what he might be signed for, not one person thought he would get the kind of contract he did.

 

[hotpaws]

Just to be clear, you are mad at Dubas because he hasn't broken up the part or all of the core - which I presume is Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Rielly and Tavares? I can't tell since all your posts are snarky esponses with zero information or good faith arguments.

the discussion we were having was Zeke saying Dubas has only made moves for long term future success , i pointed out many of his moves were for short term success , i never said i agreed or disagreed with these moves just that they weren't all for long term future success

hope this clears my position up for you

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

he also gave varying term to Rielly/Andy/Kadri/Brown and Hyman , you win some you lose some but that's the way you get players on value deals , the key is to limit your loses

Those were all good deals and I've given him credit for those. The Andersen one was a gamble at the time as he was not a proven starter but thankfully it paid off.

I do have a question for you though. How come you are able to acknowledge in your post that you win some and lose some, but all I've seen you do in this thread and the many others is absolutely shit on everything Dubas does even though he has clearly done a pretty good job of balancing out the roster despite his mistakes? We've had the best regular season ever and you're being so negative.

 

[Gary Nylund]

who said that? we're talking about proportions here. the Isles are shit but every other post is GM of the year Lou.

I don't even care about him anymore, but the love affair with him and Mark Hunter(lol!!) continues for a lot of people here.

I don't get the Lou love either, it's probably more Dubas hate than anything else would be my guess (not that I get the Dubas hate either). But yeah the fact that NYI took their shot and now their future looks bleak has been pointed out countless times and for every post that praises Lou, there are several that are mocking him, calling him a has been and saying the game has passed him by.

You ask "who said that" - this was your comment that I was responding to in case you forgot:

"how come nobody seems to mention how shit the Islanders are now?"

People mention it all the time, I'm still struggling to understand how anyone could think that "nobody seems to mention" this.

 

[hotpaws]

We were actually discussing the fact that this Leafs team is both elite right now and perfectly set up up be elite longterm.

wrong , you were knocking others for making short term moves and i corrected you by showing you Dubies short term moves


if we're set up for the future it's because he inherited very young elite pieces and not because of the trades he's made

 

[hotpaws]

Yes our 5 best players have remained our 5 best players, and one of if not the best Top-5 group of teammates in hockey.

so then we agree he's tinkered around the edges

 

[zeke]

The Kings are already in a playoff position, and their numerous elite prospects and young players still have many years of growth ahead and project quite well.

The Rangers have Kakko/Lundkvist/Lafreniere/Miller/Othmann etc in the pipeline (or already on the team) ready to take over for their current core in a couple years, while Fox and Shesterkin are the elite/young current core pieces that will ride both waves, so to speak.

the Kings are barely holding on to the last playoffs spot in hockey while playing in the weakest division in hockey. Not a single one of their "elite prospects" is making an impact this year, with their only significantly contributing youngsters being not so young Anderson and Durzi. Their best players by far are still Kopitar Doughty and Quick, with no replacements for any of them in sight.

Kakko/Lafreniere/Chytil have been outright terrible, while the likes of Lundkvist/Miller haven't been as good as Sandin/Liljegren. While Knies is looking every bit as impressive as Othmann if not moreso.

 

[zeke]

wrong , you were knocking others for making short term moves and i corrected you by showing you Dubies short term moves


if we're set up for the future it's because he inherited very young elite pieces and not because of the trades he's made

yes you were trying to portray this Leafs team as a victim of short-term planning, and I corrected you by pointing out that they are not only an elite team now but set up to be elite longterm much better than any other elite team, which would make any claim that they are the victim of short-term planning hilariously dumb.

 

[zeke]

so then we agree he's tinkered around the edges

If 80% of the roster is edges.