Kyle Dubas Discussion (continued) the 2021 edition

[Fogelhund]

I have been more realistic than anyone about what Andersen is over his tenure here, and clearly he was at fault for a large chunk of the regular season underachieving.

But he played as well as can be hoped in the playoffs.

The blame for that series loss is entirely on the offense being unable to score despite creating plenty of chances. Our defense was solid. Our goalie was solid.

We can debate whether that inability to score was our stars choking, their goalie playing insanely well, or just plain bad luck.

At this point, there isn't any value in what's happened in the past... it's the present that matters.... win now, and all will be forgotten. Failure to at least get to the Cup Semi-Finals, and this will be a major rethink. Get to Cup Semi--Finals, or more... and most should be satisfied.

 

[zeke]

At this point, there isn't any value in what's happened in the past... it's the present that matters.... win now, and all will be forgotten. Failure to at least get to the Cup Semi-Finals, and this will be a major rethink. Get to Cup Semi--Finals, or more... and most should be satisfied.

Tbh, aside from winning the cup, I care more about how they play than whether or not they win a series.

Beating Winnipeg or Vancouver or Montreal in a series won't necessarily be a better performance than our last two losses to Columbus and Boston.

 

[The Iceman]

But I don't think you can determine success or failure strictly by end results. I know everyone's patience is wearing thin but this is Dubas heading into year 3 as the GM and I have quite enjoyed the improvements made so far.

Kyle preaches process. And if you do the correct things you will be rewarded long term. Anything can happen short term.
Was TB better than Columbus 2 years ago...I think so but they were swept.

 

[ACC1224]

Columbus and Leafs finished with 81 points each last season. Neither were a so called worse team.
The close series went the distance as expected.
Columbus goalies played out of their minds against us.
Leafs lost Muzzin which flipped the power meter to Columbus IMO
Home ice every other game. Teams alternated last change.

Sounds like Columbus is a ‘great team’ as well just not against the cap. How many great teams are there in the league?

 

[ACC1224]

But I don't think you can determine success or failure strictly by end results. I know everyone's patience is wearing thin but this is Dubas heading into year 3 as the GM and I have quite enjoyed the improvements made so far.

Kyle preaches process. And if you do the correct things you will be rewarded long term. Anything can happen short term.
Was TB better than Columbus 2 years ago...I think so but they were swept.

He has a fantastic off season. It’s time to win, no more excuses

 

[Fogelhund]

Tbh, aside from winning the cup, I care more about how they play than whether or not they win a series.

Beating Winnipeg or Vancouver or Montreal in a series won't necessarily be a better performance than our last two losses to Columbus and Boston.

Agree and disagree. If we play fantastic, best we've ever seen, and lose in the first round... it's still not good enough. At the end of the day, this is about winning, not style points.

 

[The Iceman]

Sounds like Columbus is a ‘great team’ as well just not against the cap. How many great teams are there in the league?

I would categorize many teams as dangerous not necessarily great. I do think we were better than Columbus but were taken out by a dangerous team.
Unfortunately this is a big boy league and there are maybe 4 great teams and 10 dangerous teams making the Stanley Cup a very difficult trophy to win as we have shown LOL.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

I was mistaken when he got injured, I thought it was in the 2nd period.

It was right near the end of the game after the refs called a BS penalty and then Pierre Luc-f***face decided to shove a guy three feet from the boards.

 

[The Podium]

I hate how everyone is hanging success on winning a playoff round. Do people really believe that winning against Montreal or Winnipeg is more impressive than losing to Boston in game 7?

Or if they make it to round 2 but lose to Edmonton or Vancouver, that’s still worse than losing to Boston or Washington in round 1.

Yes a loss in round 1 would be a complete failure this season in a relatively easy division, but a win in round 1 isn’t some sort of success relative to years past. This just solidifies this fan bases ability to completely ignore context.

Basically this fan base is saying theyd be more proud beating up a 15 year old boy than they would be going the distance against Floyd Maywheather.

 

[zeke]

Agree and disagree. If we play fantastic, best we've ever seen, and lose in the first round... it's still not good enough. At the end of the day, this is about winning, not style points.

hey all I'm saying is that beating a crappy team in the first round won't necessarily make me feel better about the team than going toe to toe with a team like Boston for 7 games.

 

[Fogelhund]

I hate how everyone is hanging success on winning a playoff round. Do people really believe that winning against Montreal or Winnipeg is more impressive than losing to Boston in game 7?

Or if they make it to round 2 but lose to Edmonton or Vancouver, that’s still worse than losing to Boston or Washington in round 1.

Yes a loss in round 1 would be a complete failure this season in a relatively easy division, but a win in round 1 isn’t some sort of success relative to years past. This just solidifies this fan bases ability to completely ignore context.

Basically this fan base is saying theyd be more proud beating up a 15 year old boy than they would be going the distance against Floyd Maywheather.

Yes, winning is better than losing. No matter the context.

But, I think most of us who believe winning is better than losing, also expect us to be very competitive when we reach the point when we are going against a Mayweather...

 

[Fogelhund]

hey all I'm saying is that beating a crappy team in the first round won't necessarily make me feel better about the team than going toe to toe with a team like Boston for 7 games.

There won't be any crappy teams. But, like I've said just above... we've got to beat the teams below us, and compete well against teams after winning a couple of rounds as well... expectations have grown.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

For whatever it’s worth it is an issue if Andersen plays like crap in the regular season again. It’s not just a convenient excuse when we literally just witnessed him have a mediocre season. A crap regular season from him means he’ll be unreliable in the playoffs and will lead to us having a worse seed and tougher matchup, a big reason we were boned with the COVID playoffs as Columbus was literally our worst matchup out of all the play-in round teams. If Andersen is what we had seen in the previous years last season we’d have gotten to face a Florida team that just sold off at the deadline or an inexperienced Rangers team instead of a Jackets squad that would be healthy.

 

[zeke]

There won't be any crappy teams. But, like I've said just above... we've got to beat the teams below us, and compete well against teams after winning a couple of rounds as well... expectations have grown.

certainly crappier teams than the ones we've played in the playoffs so far. and yes, that includes the defensively elite Blue Jackets.

 

[The Podium]

Yes, winning is better than losing. No matter the context.

But, I think most of us who believe winning is better than losing, also expect us to be very competitive when we reach the point when we are going against a Mayweather...

Winning a round at least is 100% the only option this season. I am just saying, comparatively to seasons past, losing in round 2 this season will still be less impressive than going the distance against Boston 2x.

 

[hamzarocks]

This team should honestly dummy the division. I'm being probably over confident but I'm fully believing in what Dubas and Keefe have built and really this division has teams that are not there yet imo for true contention

Minimum I'm expecting is to go to game 6 or 7 of ECF vs whoever we face

I cant see us losing to any of the Oilers, flames, habs or Nucks. Maybe Jets if hellybuck stays as good as he was in regular season and Laine finally takes the next step but even them have a low chance in my eyes.

If the leafs fall I'll eat crow but really Dubas has built the far and away best team on paper in the North division and if we dont make the ECF or a very close game 7 type loss in the ECSF then I'll be blaming the players. Not sure simply removing a GM/Pres/Coach would change the issues and it would perhaps need a complete roster retool with 1 of the big 4 shipped out and moving on from andersen and maybe rielly.

 

[The Podium]

For whatever it’s worth it is an issue if Andersen plays like crap in the regular season again. It’s not just a convenient excuse when we literally just witnessed him have a mediocre season. A crap regular season from him means he’ll be unreliable in the playoffs and will lead to us having a worse seed and tougher matchup, a big reason we were boned with the COVID playoffs as Columbus was literally our worst matchup out of all the play-in round teams. If Andersen is what we had seen in the previous years last season we’d have gotten to face a Florida team that just sold off at the deadline or an inexperienced Rangers team instead of a Jackets squad that would be healthy.

Well a full season of Campbell playing .500 hockey alone gets us 8 extra points on the standings last season and matches us up against Montreal and puts us 7th overall in the league keeping pace with the 2 seasons prior.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Gonna be a tight division. Even Sens will take points here and there. Not much between 1st and 6th.

Canucks
Leafs
Habs
Jets
Flames
Oilers

Sens

Canucks a little deeper then everyone else.
Leafs top 2 lines too much for everyone but Canucks.
Habs and Jets have best goalers so they grab last 2 spots.
Flames not enough offense. Oilers no defense. Sens too young.

 

[The Podium]

Gonna be a tight division. Even Sens will take points here and there. Not much between 1st and 6th.

Canucks
Leafs
Habs
Jets
Flames
Oilers

Sens

Canucks a little deeper then everyone else.
Leafs top 2 lines too much for everyone but Canucks.
Habs and Jets have best goalers so they grab last 2 spots.
Flames not enough offense. Oilers no defense. Sens too young.

Canucks just got dismantled by FA....

They are going to take a hit this season, although they do have the most untapped potential. They are certainly not deeper than everyone else, especially on the back end.

Miller - Pettersson - Boeser
Pearson - Horvat - Hoglander
Roussel - Gaudette - Virtanen
Hawryluk - Sutter - Macewen

Hughes - Schmidt
Edler - Myers
Juolevi - Hamonic

Demko
Holtby

That bottom 6 looks worse than ours with a much weaker 2nd line and that bottom 4 D looks awful awful.​

 

[Buds17]

I hate how everyone is hanging success on winning a playoff round. Do people really believe that winning against Montreal or Winnipeg is more impressive than losing to Boston in game 7?

Or if they make it to round 2 but lose to Edmonton or Vancouver, that’s still worse than losing to Boston or Washington in round 1.

Yes a loss in round 1 would be a complete failure this season in a relatively easy division, but a win in round 1 isn’t some sort of success relative to years past. This just solidifies this fan bases ability to completely ignore context.

Basically this fan base is saying theyd be more proud beating up a 15 year old boy than they would be going the distance against Floyd Maywheather.

I wouldn't view a Boston or Washington as infallible, just as I wouldn't view Montreal, Winnipeg, Edmonton or Vancouver as a walk in the park. The aim should be on winning and not on the opposing team. Any given season should matter as much as the others. If a series loss can be considered a failure, it should follow that a series win should be viewed as success.

 

[Fogelhund]

Canucks just got dismantled by FA....

They are going to take a hit this season, although they do have the most untapped potential. They are certainly not deeper than everyone else, especially on the back end.

Miller - Pettersson - Boeser
Pearson - Horvat - Hoglander
Roussel - Gaudette - Virtanen
Hawryluk - Sutter - Macewen

Hughes - Schmidt
Edler - Myers
Juolevi - Hamonic

Demko
Holtby

That bottom 6 looks worse than ours with a much weaker 2nd line and that bottom 4 D looks awful awful.​

The Canucks have the worst record against other Canadian teams last year, and even the totality of the past three seasons. They just don't match up well at all. They've got some nice young players with potential, but this isn't going to go well for them.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Canucks just got dismantled by FA....

They are going to take a hit this season, although they do have the most untapped potential. They are certainly not deeper than everyone else, especially on the back end.

Miller - Pettersson - Boeser
Pearson - Horvat - Hoglander
Roussel - Gaudette - Virtanen
Hawryluk - Sutter - Macewen

Hughes - Schmidt
Edler - Myers
Juolevi - Hamonic

Demko
Holtby

That bottom 6 looks worse than ours with a much weaker 2nd line and that bottom 4 D looks awful awful.​

That is not even close to their best lineup... Beagle is a beast with Ferland and Rousel ... a big tough hard hitting hurt you line that will inflict damage every night to every other team in division ... Sutter cleans up on 4th line .. there is a little too much risk taking going on with their D core which will hurt them against us and Oilers ... but Demko Horvat and Pettersson i believe will shock NHL with breakout years Horvat especially

 

[The Podium]

The Canucks have the worst record against other Canadian teams last year, and even the totality of the past three seasons. They just don't match up well at all. They've got some nice young players with potential, but this isn't going to go well for them.

This success is tied to the performance at the top of their lineup. Their top line and top pairing are dangerous, and may take the next step this season. Demko also has the potential to steal games as well. However at this point it is all potential.

Its just funny how the previous poster described them as deep, when they are literally the top heaviest team in the division.

If anything Montreal is the deepest at all positions but has nothing at the top except Price.

 

[ToneDog]

This team should honestly dummy the division. I'm being probably over confident but I'm fully believing in what Dubas and Keefe have built and really this division has teams that are not there yet imo for true contention

Minimum I'm expecting is to go to game 6 or 7 of ECF vs whoever we face

I cant see us losing to any of the Oilers, flames, habs or Nucks. Maybe Jets if hellybuck stays as good as he was in regular season and Laine finally takes the next step but even them have a low chance in my eyes.

If the leafs fall I'll eat crow but really Dubas has built the far and away best team on paper in the North division and if we dont make the ECF or a very close game 7 type loss in the ECSF then I'll be blaming the players. Not sure simply removing a GM/Pres/Coach would change the issues and it would perhaps need a complete roster retool with 1 of the big 4 shipped out and moving on from andersen and maybe rielly.

Now that is what I call optimistic

Travel is going to take it's toll on many teams. I can see anybody beating anybody on any given night.

 

[hamzarocks]

That is not even close to their best lineup... Beagle is a beast with Ferland and Rousel ... a big tough hard hitting hurt you line that will inflict damage every night to every other team in division ... Sutter cleans up on 4th line .. there is a little too much risk taking going on with their D core which will hurt them against us and Oilers ... but Demko Horvat and Pettersson i believe will shock NHL with breakout years Horvat especially

Ferland I think is going to be put on LTIR. They are using the space from putting him there to go over the cap and sign Hamonic

They could be good but they are relying on a lot of young players to play well

Hoglander, Joulevi, Demko, Virtanen, Gaudette all will be relied upon to play well and support their stars.

They issue for them is whether guys like JT miller and Tanner Pearson are as good as they showed last year
Both played key roles for the nucks. If Miller drops back down to his 60 point self it hurts the teams offense drastically.

I think the loses of Markstrom, Toffoli, Tanev, Stetcher, and Ferland(should he be out long term) are going to hold them back from being a playoff team this year