Former Bruins Is Ray Bourque a Top 10 All-Time Player?

[EverettMike]

As us old farts like to say, "I don't know about that".

Of course, we also have memories that are below average at best.

Yes Park did get heavier. Much like Bourque.

I don't remember Bourque getting heavier during his career, though. I mean, everyone does, but not in the sense where you'd say "he got heavy." He was still in amazing shape his final season.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I don't remember Bourque getting heavier during his career, though. I mean, everyone does, but not in the sense where you'd say "he got heavy." He was still in amazing shape his final season.

You must be in that below average memory category too.

 

[EverettMike]

You must be in that below average memory category too.

Okay! I guess he was fat as shit at 40 and not playing monster minutes at a Norris-caliber level. My b.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Okay! I guess he was fat as shit at 40 and not playing monster minutes at a Norris-caliber level. My b.

Actually, at 40, in his final year, Bourque played more total minutes than any other player (RS & playoffs combined) in the NHL that season. And he was 2nd in Norris voting.

Consider, both Park and Bourque came into the league as skinny kids, both just under 6 feet. Park was listed at 200 pounds when he retired. Bourque was listed at 219.

 

[EverettMike]

Actually, at 40, in his final year, Bourque played more total minutes than any other player (RS & playoffs combined) in the NHL that season. And he was 2nd in Norris voting.

Consider, both Park and Bourque came into the league as skinny kids, both just under 6 feet. Park was listed at 200 pounds when he retired. Bourque was listed at 219.

Uh...no shit. That was my point.

Again, I know Bourque got "heavy" in the way all players do as they age, but he didn't get heavy in a bad sense. He wasn't overweight or fat. He was still in incredible shape, as evidenced by his monster minute totals at a Norris-level that went all the way to Game 7 of the Final.

Literally don't know what the f*** you're even arguing at this point and doooooon't caaaaare.

 

[LouJersey]

I don't remember Bourque getting heavier during his career, though. I mean, everyone does, but not in the sense where you'd say "he got heavy." He was still in amazing shape his final season.

game 6 in his final game to clinch the cup. 44 shifts, 29:35 of ice time.

How many players in the final game of their career with those stakes play about half the game? At 40 years old.

 

[quietbruinfan]

Ray's Body type definitely changed in years three and four. He was rail thin and wiry his first two years and by the middle of year four, he was a refrigerator.

 

[polarbearoption]

Ray's Body type definitely changed in years three and four. He was rail thin and wiry his first two years and by the middle of year four, he was a refrigerator.

I think there's a pretty sizeable ass there. Huge thighs.

You must be in that below average memory category too.

I think there's a pretty sizeable arse there, yes, sir. Huge thighs.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Uh...no shit. That was my point.

Again, I know Bourque got "heavy" in the way all players do as they age, but he didn't get heavy in a bad sense. He wasn't overweight or fat. He was still in incredible shape, as evidenced by his monster minute totals at a Norris-level that went all the way to Game 7 of the Final.

Literally don't know what the f*** you're even arguing at this point and doooooon't caaaaare.

Never said he got heavy in a bad sense. Or that he was fat. Or that he was overweight. Didn't even imply any of that.

Did miss your sarcasm, however.

 

[vjcsmoke]

Top 30 easily. Top 10... naah there's just too many hockey greats out there ahead of him. I wouldn't rate Bourque above our own Bobby Orr for example or the great Wayne Gretzky.

 

[chizzler]

Top 30 easily. Top 10... naah there's just too many hockey greats out there ahead of him. I wouldn't rate Bourque above our own Bobby Orr for example or the great Wayne Gretzky.

That leaves three…

 

[Hookslide]

Bourque is the Gordie Howe of defensemen...a 20 year career of nothing but elite peak. That is what puts him in the Top 10 range (8-12 IMO)

Howe scoring finishes: 1,1,1,1,1,1,2,3,3,3,3,3,4,4,4,5,5,5,5,5...19x total
Bourque Norris finishes: 1,1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,3,3,3,3,4,4,4,4...19x total

Howe: 12x AS-1, 9x AS-2...21 total
Bourque: 13x AS-1, 6x AS-2...19 total

Bourque was a great player but don't put him in the same category as Howe you do Howe a disservice ............

 

[Fire Sweeney]

The Bruins would have been mediocre for years without Bourque, instead they were Stanley Cup contenders.With another owner Bourque would have retired a Bruin with 3-4 cups.

 

[TP]

Top 10? No, but he was certainly great.

His ability to keep pucks in the zone and his slap shot were amazing.

 

[sarge88]

Coming off a fun argument with people I don't know on FB after I said that Chelios was the most overrated player of the 80's/90's ---- got me thinking about this thread again (because 3 people there said he was better than Bourque ---).

Of players I've seen play he's got to be top 10 --

For me it's:

Orr
Mario (yes above 99 --- better player than 99, just not a better career, IMO)
Gretzky
Howe
Bourque
Messier
Jagr
Crosby
Yzerman
Ovechkin

After that, we're delving into really tough sledding to pick the next 10, IMO. So many good players and so many that were before my time it's really hard to rank them.

 

[rfournier103]

Lots of great answers here, but even more questions…

Ray is FOURTH all time in assists, and eleventh all time in points - regardless of position. He also has over 400 goals. Pretty amazing for a defenseman.

If I were to just rank defensemen, I’m having a hard time not ranking Bourque number two behind Orr. In my mind, an argument could be made that Eddie Shore is number two because of his FOUR Hart Trophies (third most all time!), but I think Bourque’s numbers are too good.

So, if Ray is the second best defenseman in NHL history, is he still outside the all time top ten? If Orr is the first or second best player ever, does that mean only one defenseman in a top ten dominated by forwards? And we’re not even talking about goalies.

Ray could be top ten. Absolutely top fifteen.

 

[Lobster57]

I know it’s entirely made up, stupid and unrealistic…..but when I’m comparing two players in hockey I always find myself thinking about how 5 of each of them with the same goaltender would fare against each other.

For instance, I can’t see 5 Gretzky’s beating 5 Marios, simply because of Mario’s size, strength and skating advantage.

Regarding Bourque, I can’t imagine 5 Bourque’s ever letting up a goal.

Not sure if that makes him top 10 all time or not.

I will say I agree with those that rank him top 10 defenseman and maybe top 25 or so all time.

I do the same thing! It's how i know Orr is the greatest to ever do it. Gretzky might win the faceoffs but then he'd never touch the puck again

 

[rfournier103]

I do the same thing! It's how i know Orr is the greatest to ever do it. Gretzky might win the faceoffs but then he'd never touch the puck again

I’m not sure how good Orr was at faceoffs, but I have heard it said that faceoffs were the weakest part of Gretzky’s game.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Coming off a fun argument with people I don't know on FB after I said that Chelios was the most overrated player of the 80's/90's ---- got me thinking about this thread again (because 3 people there said he was better than Bourque ---).

Of players I've seen play he's got to be top 10 --

For me it's:

Orr
Mario (yes above 99 --- better player than 99, just not a better career, IMO)
Gretzky
Howe
Bourque
Messier
Jagr
Crosby
Yzerman
Ovechkin

After that, we're delving into really tough sledding to pick the next 10, IMO. So many good players and so many that were before my time it's really hard to rank them.

I've also felt Howe was a better player than both Gretzky & Mario. Though 99 & 66 were most likely the best offensive players ever, the fact that neither played any defense nor had any physicality in their game leaves them behind Howe & Orr in my mind.

 

[jgatie]

I do the same thing! It's how i know Orr is the greatest to ever do it. Gretzky might win the faceoffs but then he'd never touch the puck again

Only two players ever played with both Orr and Gretzky, Bobby Schmautz and Ace Bailey. Both were asked who was the better player. Ace politely declined to answer, but Schmautzy was never one to hold back. He said Orr was the better player because of the way he was treated by the rest of the league. His exact quote, "Gretzky was protected, Orr was a target".

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Lots of great answers here, but even more questions…

Ray is FOURTH all time in assists, and eleventh all time in points - regardless of position. He also has over 400 goals. Pretty amazing for a defenseman.

If I were to just rank defensemen, I’m having a hard time not ranking Bourque number two behind Orr. In my mind, an argument could be made that Eddie Shore is number two because of his FOUR Hart Trophies (third most all time!), but I think Bourque’s numbers are too good.

So, if Ray is the second best defenseman in NHL history, is he still outside the all time top ten? If Orr is the first or second best player ever, does that mean only one defenseman in a top ten dominated by forwards? And we’re not even talking about goalies.

Ray could be top ten. Absolutely top fifteen.

Doug Harvey won 7 Norris trophies and 6 Cups with the Canadiens in the 50's. Didn't start his NHL career until he was 23. Generally considered 2nd to Orr and a top 10 player all-time. His stock will probably fall as time goes on, as Shore's has over the last decade or so. Same will happen for Orr I suspect.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I do the same thing! It's how i know Orr is the greatest to ever do it. Gretzky might win the faceoffs but then he'd never touch the puck again

No one playing against 5 Gordie Howes could win and come our alive.

 

[PB37]

I think he's in the top 10. Outside of the top 5 but definitely somewhere in the 5-10 range.

Is there another player who was consistently among the top 3-5 best at his position ( if not THE best ) for as long as he was? Especially for defensemen?

For forwards, Howe and Gretzky, are right there with Ray's longevity. I can't think of anyone else really.

 

[EverettMike]

Doug Harvey won 7 Norris trophies and 6 Cups with the Canadiens in the 50's. Didn't start his NHL career until he was 23. Generally considered 2nd to Orr and a top 10 player all-time. His stock will probably fall as time goes on, as Shore's has over the last decade or so. Same will happen for Orr I suspect.

4 Harts >>>>>>> 7 Norris

Eddie Shore is so underrated it drives me insane. Anyone who puts Doug Harvey over him is out of their mind. Montreal bias. If Harvey played in Detroit he wouldn't touch the top 5 defensemen of all time list.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Doug Harvey won 7 Norris trophies and 6 Cups with the Canadiens in the 50's. Didn't start his NHL career until he was 23. Generally considered 2nd to Orr and a top 10 player all-time. His stock will probably fall as time goes on, as Shore's has over the last decade or so. Same will happen for Orr I suspect.

Dont forget Shore played before the Norris Trophy existed. He has 7x AS-1, and 7x Hart finalist. Pretty easy to assume he wins 7 Norris trophies.