Former Bruins Is Ray Bourque a Top 10 All-Time Player?

[Dennis Bonvie]

4 Harts >>>>>>> 7 Norris

Eddie Shore is so underrated it drives me insane. Anyone who puts Doug Harvey over him is out of their mind. Montreal bias. If Harvey played in Detroit he wouldn't touch the top 5 defensemen of all time list.

Eddie Shore was the biggest star of his day. I agree, he is currently underrated. I've always considered him to be a top 10 player. Biggest knock on him was always his excessive violence and playoff performances. Too much time in the box hurt his teams often, especially in the playoffs.

As for the Hart trophies, need to remember there was no Norris Trophy when Shore played. After the Norris was introduced (1954), only Orr and Pronger (in a fluky season) have won Hart trophies as defensemen. Prior to the Norris trophy, Herb Gardiner, Babe Siebert, Ebbie Goodfellow, Tom Anderson and Babe Pratt won Hart trophies as defensemen as well as Shore.

You're kidding yourself if you think Doug Harvey's place in history is due to Montreal bias. Watch some film of the guy. He controlled the game like no one else until Orr. Harvey won his last Norris at age 37 playing for the Rangers. They made the playoffs that season for the first time in 4 years. Harvey finished 2nd in Hart voting that season to Jacques Plante. Voters felt he was the reason NY made the playoffs. Gordie Howe & Bobby Hull came in 3rd and 4th in the voting. Harvey was also the Rangers head coach that season.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Dont forget Shore played before the Norris Trophy existed. He has 7x AS-1, and 7x Hart finalist. Pretty easy to assume he wins 7 Norris trophies.

Pretty easy to assume Shore wouldn't have won 4 Hart trophies if the Norris existed then also.

 

[EverettMike]

Eddie Shore was the biggest star of his day. I agree, he is currently underrated. I've always considered him to be a top 10 player. Biggest knock on him was always his excessive violence and playoff performances. Too much time in the box hurt his teams often, especially in the playoffs.

As for the Hart trophies, need to remember there was no Norris Trophy when Shore played. After the Norris was introduced (1954), only Orr and Pronger (in a fluky season) have won Hart trophies as defensemen. Prior to the Norris trophy, Herb Gardiner, Babe Siebert, Ebbie Goodfellow, Tom Anderson and Babe Pratt won Hart trophies as defensemen as well as Shore.

You're kidding yourself if you think Doug Harvey's place in history is due to Montreal bias. Watch some film of the guy. He controlled the game like no one else until Orr. Harvey won his last Norris at age 37 playing for the Rangers. They made the playoffs that season for the first time in 4 years. Harvey finished 2nd in Hart voting that season to Jacques Plante. Voters felt he was the reason NY made the playoffs. Gordie Howe & Bobby Hull came in 3rd and 4th in the voting. Harvey was also the Rangers head coach that season.

I always knew you were a Canadiens apologist.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I always knew you were a Canadiens apologist.

That's funny.

 

[kdog82]

Bourque is a top 10 player all-time. 2nd best dman to ever play the game and its not close.

 

[67 others]

He played in the golden age of defensemen in terms of competition. Bourque really should have 7 Norris trophies and a Hart. As it stands, his season counts as a hart to me

Early 80's was a strange time where folks alternated between giving pure offensive defensemen and pure defensive Defensemen the norris and often lowering guys who were good at both.

I don't care how good defensively Langway was in 84 defensively with his 9 goals and 33 points, or that Coffey on Gretzky's powerplay scored 40 goals and 126 points. Bourque scored 31 goals and 96 points and played rock solid defense. No amount of wild man attacking the puck carrier makes up that 63 point difference between Langway and Bourque considering how good Bourque was defensively, and Bourque on Gretzky's powerplay likely also scores 126 points and plays way better defense.

Chelios in 93, at least he was a two way Dman, but Bourque was still better. Was just voter fatigue. Chelios with 283 penalty minutes lol.


Bourque is a top 5, not top 10, all time Dman. He has an argument for 2nd best ever after Orr. He is the Gordie Howe of Dmen in terms of Longevity and long prime. He was in the discussion for best defenseman in the league every single year for 22 years from his 1st year in the league in 79/80, and a norris runner up in his retirement year in 2001. Top 4 for the norris 19 years and his lowest finishes the other 2 times were 7th for the norris. And he did it in the Golden age of defensmen when there were more elite defensemen than any other time in history.

 

[Hookslide]

Bourque is a top 10 player all-time. 2nd best dman to ever play the game and its not close.

Easy big fella

 

[lextune]

Ray was absolutely screwed out of a few more Norris trophies. And the Hart trophy in '90. The old boys club did not want to see another defenseman win the Hart, and the Edmonton voters (Messier ended up getting it), left Bourque out of the top three (preposterous). And I believe it remains the closest voting in Hart history.

Ray is a top five defenseman all time. The "Gordie Howe of defense". And he's around a top 15 to 18 player all time by my reckoning.

I saw his entire career, and he was an absolute beast. The quintessential Bourque game (if you had to pick just one) is probably game 1 of the '90 Finals. Going into the 3rd down two goals, Ray, who was already our best player all night, put the team on his back and scored two goals to tie the game up.

By the time we lost in triple OT he had played over an hour.

Many other posts have already mention some of the things that made him so great, so I won't repeat them, but another amazing skill/knack Ray had was getting the puck on net. It was exceedingly rare for a Dman to league the league in shots on goal, I believe only Orr had done it (once) before Ray, and Bourque did it a number of times, and he almost always led our team in shots. He was uncanny at getting shots through traffic to the net from his point.

They'll never be another player like him.

 

[mjhfb]

Ray was absolutely screwed out of a few more Norris trophies. And the Hart trophy in '90. The old boys club did not want to see another defenseman win the Hart, and the Edmonton voters (Messier ended up getting it), left Bourque out of the top three (preposterous). And I believe it remains the closest voting in Hart history.

Ray is a top five defenseman all time. The "Gordie Howe of defense". And he's around a top 15 to 18 player all time by my reckoning.

I saw his entire career, and he was an absolute beast. The quintessential Bourque game (if you had to pick just one) is probably game 1 of the '90 Finals. Going into the 3rd down two goals, Ray, who was already our best player all night, put the team on his back and scored two goals to tie the game up.

By the time we lost in triple OT he had played over an hour.

Many other posts have already mention some of the things that made him so great, so I won't repeat them, but another amazing skill/knack Ray had was getting the puck on net. It was exceedingly rare for a Dman to league the league in shots on goal, I believe only Orr had done it (once) before Ray, and Bourque did it a number of times, and he almost always led our team in shots. He was uncanny at getting shots through traffic to the net from his point.

They'll never be another player like him.

If you remember he almost got his 3rd goal to win the game late, driving down deep into the slot for a rebound on a bouncing puck in a frenzy. That would have been historic.

 

[EverettMike]

This thread has made me realize that historically Ray Bourque is underrated.

 

[Tbaybruin]

we have Bingo!

Orr ,Shore, Harvey, Bourque, Lidstrom. He was so good for so long. 20 years a all star? Never break that record. Top 5 for sure sorry 19

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Orr ,Shore, Harvey, Bourque, Lidstrom. He was so good for so long. 20 years a all star? Never break that record. Top 5 for sure sorry 19

Potvin needs to be considered also.

 

[lextune]

If you remember he almost got his 3rd goal to win the game late, driving down deep into the slot for a rebound on a bouncing puck in a frenzy. That would have been historic.

I do remember. Even if we win that game we probably still lose the series though, sadly.

We matched up a lot better with their top two lines than we had in '88 obviously, with Gretzky gone. But we had no answer for the Gelinas/Murphy/Graves (the "Kid Line"), those guys torched us endlessly, and of course Ranford was very good, (clutch), that whole playoff season for them.

 

[lextune]

As for the Hart trophies, need to remember there was no Norris Trophy when Shore played. After the Norris was introduced (1954), only Orr and Pronger (in a fluky season) have won Hart trophies as defensemen.

Bourque was robbed in 1990 because the old boys network doing the voting did not wany to give it to any other dmen after Orr.

Messier won it over Bourque that year in the closest Hart voting ever. By two points. They both got 29 1st place votes, Ray got two more second place votes (26 to 24), and Messier had 10 3rd place votes to Ray's 2. The voters in Edmonton famously did not even have Ray in the top three.

1989-90 NHL Awards Voting | Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

 

[DKH]

I can go back to 66-67 and been to 1500-2000 games (thanks mom and dad you were/are the best) and he’s the best defenseman I’ve seen not named Orr

Lindstrom has the bling but the rosters were a mismatch

Top 10 since 1966-67 in no order

Orr
Gretzky
Lemieux
Howe (he played till 1980 so…)
Messier
LaFleur
Jagr
Yzerman
Bourque
Lidstrom
Crosby
Ovechkin
McDavid
Esposito
Bobby Hull
Belliveau

In the discussion
Trottier
Potvin
Bossy
Robinson
Clarke
LaFontaine
Selanne
Brett Hull
Makita

I didn’t put goalies whole nother list

 

[Gordon Lightfoot]

I can go back to 66-67 and been to 1500-2000 games (thanks mom and dad you were/are the best) and he’s the best defenseman I’ve seen not named Orr

Lindstrom has the bling but the rosters were a mismatch

Top 10 since 1966-67 in no order

Orr
Gretzky
Lemieux
Howe (he played till 1980 so…)
Messier
LaFleur
Jagr
Yzerman
Bourque
Lidstrom
Crosby
Ovechkin
McDavid
Esposito
Bobby Hull
Belliveau

In the discussion
Trottier
Potvin
Bossy
Robinson
Clarke
LaFontaine
Selanne
Brett Hull
Makita

I didn’t put goalies whole nother list

Great list. I’d replace Yzerman with Sakic, and get Robinson and Trottier up into that top tier. Just cause I like them.

 

[DKH]

Great list. I’d replace Yzerman with Sakic, and get Robinson and Trottier up into that top tier. Just cause I like them.

Forgot about Forsberg and Sakic but yeh

I think a top 50 F maybe I’ll do

Going by what I saw up close and using 1966 as the starting point so I can realistically add Hull, Howe, Keon, Belliveau, Makita, Mahavolich ?

Give me something to do

 

[Gordon Lightfoot]

Forgot about Forsberg and Sakic but yeh

I think a top 50 F maybe I’ll do

Going by what I saw up close and using 1966 as the starting point so I can realistically add Hull, Howe, Keon, Belliveau, Makita, Mahavolich ?

Give me something to do

Sure, why not? I always forget about Keon. Was he that good? Does Pronger belong in the lower tier anywhere?

 

[rfournier103]

Sure, why not? I always forget about Keon. Was he that good? Does Pronger belong in the lower tier anywhere?

Never saw Keon, but definitely remember Chris Pronger. I would say at best he’s in the lower tier. I think Dave Keon is overrated because he was a Leaf, and I never understood the love affair with Pronger.

This thread has made me realize that historically Ray Bourque is underrated.

 

[DKH]

Sure, why not? I always forget about Keon. Was he that good? Does Pronger belong in the lower tier anywhere?

Keon is Bergeron - same exact guy to me

Maybe the easiest comparable I’ve ever seen - I loved Keon. He and Cournoyer were my guys growing up and was fortunate to know them

Pronger definitely would be on my top 50 DEFENSEMAN list to start and as I whittle away probably ends up in top 25

Harvey was before my time but I remember Pilots and Howell at the end

I’d have to take a deep dive

Salming would be on it

Curious to see what come up with

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Sure, why not? I always forget about Keon. Was he that good? Does Pronger belong in the lower tier anywhere?

Yes, Keon was that good. One of the all-time underrated players.

I think Pronger definitely belongs.

Keon is Bergeron - same exact guy to me

Maybe the easiest comparable I’ve ever seen - I loved Keon. He and Cournoyer were my guys growing up and was fortunate to know them

Pronger definitely would be on my top 50 DEFENSEMAN list to start and as I whittle away probably ends up in top 25

Harvey was before my time but I remember Pilots and Howell at the end

I’d have to take a deep dive

Salming would be on it

Curious to see what come up with

Yes, Keon = Bergeron but with a lot more speed.

 

[DKH]

Yes, Keon was that good. One of the all-time underrated players.

I think Pronger definitely belongs.


Yes, Keon = Bergeron but with a lot more speed.

I’ll do a list and would appreciate you weighing in - you saw as much or more then me

Going to work at Forwards first

 

[badbrewin]

NHL players did not start to "hardcore" condition until ~ 20 years ago, which is why you saw so many players from the 90's down become less productive and lots of them were washed up by 30-33. Looking at the emphasis on conditioning today, many players still going at a high level at 35+.

The old adage "he could have played in any era" is so often used that it starts to lose its appeal. Bourque was 20 years ahead of his time with his conditioning, so I truly believe he would be making just as much of an impact today as he did 40 years ago, which in itself is remarkable and a consideration in evaluating all-time best. (Ex: no disrespect to a guy like Serge Savard who might have been top 10 in his decade, but the guy played with a pot belly his entire career and would likely struggle to crack 3rd pairing d-man today)

Important to keep context in mind, and with that said, I truly believe Bourque is top 20 all-time and top 5 amongst d-men.

 

[bp14]

we have Bingo!

Best defenseman since Orr IMO. Can’t speak on guys who came before Orr.

And he played in an era with a lot of great dmen: Lidstrom, Chelios, Leetch, Stevens, McInnis, Neidermayer, Pronger, etc. I’d take him above all of them, though Lidstrom has a strong argument obviously.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

NHL players did not start to "hardcore" condition until ~ 20 years ago, which is why you saw so many players from the 90's down become less productive and lots of them were washed up by 30-33. Looking at the emphasis on conditioning today, many players still going at a high level at 35+.

The old adage "he could have played in any era" is so often used that it starts to lose its appeal. Bourque was 20 years ahead of his time with his conditioning, so I truly believe he would be making just as much of an impact today as he did 40 years ago, which in itself is remarkable and a consideration in evaluating all-time best. (Ex: no disrespect to a guy like Serge Savard who might have been top 10 in his decade, but the guy played with a pot belly his entire career and would likely struggle to crack 3rd pairing d-man today)

Important to keep context in mind, and with that said, I truly believe Bourque is top 20 all-time and top 5 amongst d-men.

And then there's Gordie Howe.

Serge Savard and his pot belly would have no problem starring in the current NHL.

Completely agree on Bourque ranking.