Former Bruins Is Ray Bourque a Top 10 All-Time Player?

[Johnny4778]

My grandfather was born in 1900. Passed in 1993.Saw all 3. He had them rated Orr, Shore , Bourque.

He was lucky to have seen them all.

My grandfather loved Harvey. Heard lots of folks say Park would have won a lot of Norris trophies if not for Orr. Craziest shit is that had Orr stayed heathy we could have had Orr, Bourque and Park on the blue line at the same time.

 

[HooperDrivesTheBoat]

Lemieux was great, the greatest of his era. Jagr was very good, too.

Gretzky was great, obviously.

But none of the above were, to me, complete players. I'll take a 200 ft., three zone, defensively and offensively responsble player over the goal scorers and fancy Dan's.

Gordie was that way. Ted Lindsay was that way.

Jean Bealiveau. Doug Harvey. Red Kelly. Bob Gainey. Patrice. Brad. Raymond. Chris Kelly. Ron Francis. Joe Sakic. Larry Robinson. Serge Savard. Bobby. Denis Potvin. Brian Trottier. Uncle Milty. John Bucyk. Stan Mikita. Nick Lidstrom. Andy Bathgate. Jean Ratelle. Mark Messier. Börje Salming. Dave Keon. Darryl Sittler. Steve Yzerman, et. al.

Haven't even scratched the surface.

These players, and so many more, all possessed great skill, intelligence, and a desire to be complete players.

They're the ones I admire most.


100%

You lived through that classic era. I didn’t get to see most of those guys live. I was lucky to see Sakic and Yzerman’s entire careers. Stevie Y is one of my all-time favorites and he scored my favorite goal ever (will try to find on YouTube)

 

[Johnny4778]

Here is my thing with the greatness of Ray Borque.

He was 40, 40!!!!!!

When he posted his cup season and 7g-52a on a stacked Avs squad.

Players should be rated among their piers, and for me that means other defenseman.

Orr
Potvin
Bourque
Park
Lidstrom
Chara
Shore
Coffee

Potvin thought he was better than ORR. Never liked the guy. Not in my top 5

 

[HooperDrivesTheBoat]

Sometimes former players, even the ones you thought were the best both on and off the ice, do something so egregious it makes you rethink everything you ever thought of them.

I hear you. Specifically Bourque and Neely (I won’t derail this thread, but these two have tested my fandom in recent years).

 

[HooperDrivesTheBoat]

#4 - against the Pens

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Yet again, I love Ray, but Nick Lidstrom was very much in his league.

I'm not one of them, but many would say Nick was as good or better than Raymond.

Agreed, but Lidstrom didn't have to carry his team on his back like Bourque did.

 

[pgm16]

He won 5 Norris trophies playing mean minutes.

 

[Mad-Marcus]

YES!

 

[Bruins4Lifer]

He's not a top 10 player, but certainly top 5 for defensemen.

It really irks me to see Lidstrom ranked ahead of Bourque. Lidstrom was no doubt great and one of the best too, but Ray was 1st or 2nd Team All-Star in 19 of his 22 seasons, against arguably the strongest competition of defensemen in league history. Lidstrom was 1st/2nd All-Star in 12 of 20 seasons.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

He's not a top 10 player, but certainly top 5 for defensemen.

It really irks me to see Lidstrom ranked ahead of Bourque. Lidstrom was no doubt great and one of the best too, but Ray was 1st or 2nd Team All-Star in 19 of his 22 seasons, against arguably the strongest competition of defensemen in league history. Lidstrom was 1st/2nd All-Star in 12 of 20 seasons.

Who is ranking Lidstrom ahead of Bourque?

 

[Dellstrom]

He's right around there but ultimately right outside, in my opinion. You could make a case for it.

 

[TheReal13Linseman]

Bourque (and Neely) is the reason I’m a Bruins fan so there is no way for me to give an unbiased answer. I personally think that, other than Gretzky and Mario, he was the best player on the ice most nights during the 80’s and 90’s. Again, certainly biased, but he was just incredible to watch.

That being said, and to piggyback on what Fenian wrote, I can only judge the players I’ve actually seen play many times. Using those parameters (since I began watching in mid-80’s), Bourque is absolutely top-5 during that era and THE best defenseman. Better than Leetch, Coffey, Lidstrom, etc. The guy rarely made a mistake with the puck and put up incredible numbers. It was amazing to watch.

This x1000. Bourque seemed to never make a bad play. It made watching games totally different from what it is usually, when you know your dman WILL consistently bring the puck from his own goal line across the opposing blue line with speed, ease and skill and either set up for quality scoring opportunity or score himself with a blistering snapshot. The guy was pure magic.

 

[mjhfb]

Don't forget Bourque was also the runner up to the Norris Trophy five times on top of his five wins.

 

[EverettMike]

Don't forget Bourque was also the runner up to the Norris Trophy five times on top of his five wins.

And was screwed on a few of them.

 

[mjhfb]

And was screwed on a few of them.

At least one.

 

[JAD]

Bourque, loved his game and watching him play. Top 10 though, I don't believe so.
It's tough just to rate where he falls just amongst Bruins players nevermind historically league wide. Great player.

I've seen Orr, Park, Bourque, Chara all play and just my top five Bruins defenseman are:
1. Orr
2. Shore
3. Bourque
4. Park
5. Chara
I firmly believe just within the Bruins organization arguments could be made for the rankings for defenseman of 2 through 4 as being somewhat interchangeable and it's all subjective. Bourque could be rated as high as 2 and Shore as low as 4 and I think Park falls 3 or 4 either way. Was Park the best defenseman to never win a cup or Norris - 8 time runner up to Orr? Shore 4 league MVPs before there was a Norris. Bourque has 5 Norris/5 runner ups, longevity and prolonged high level of play setting him a part, but won his cup elsewhere. I do think Bourque should have also won an MVP one year as well.

Bourque is outside top 10 historically league wide; most likely depending on preferences he falls somewhere in the 12 - 25 range.

 

[Patdud]

my no3 is best dman ever, but no. Orr is the only Dman in the top 10 for me, need space for goalies like Hasek as well.

 

[Bruins4Lifer]

Who is ranking Lidstrom ahead of Bourque?

Here's a few off the first page of a google search "top 10 defensemen all time"

Top 10 NHL Defensemen of All Time

Hockey is known for its hard hits and fast action, players who usually get all the recognition are the biggest, baddest and most aggressive players on the ice...

bleacherreport.com

The Best NHL Defensemen Ever - The Hockey Writers Hockey History Latest News, Analysis & More

THW's Best NHL Lineup of all-time. Who were the best NHL defensemen ever? We offer up 7 of the game's greats for you to peruse & discuss.

thehockeywriters.com

NHL Top 10 Defensemen All Time

NHL Top 10 Defensemen All Time #10 Phil Housley Housley was drafted 6th overall in 1982 by the Buffalo Sabres. He played professional hockey in the NHL from 1982-83 to 2002-03. Housley

tedtalkshockey.com

Best NHL Defensemen of All Time - Top 20 Blueliners Counted Down | Hockey Hermit

Who are the greatest NHL defenseman ever? Hockey Hermit counts down the 20 best blueliners in NHL history. From Chris Pronger to Bobby Orr see which stars from yesterday and today made the cut.

www.hockeyhermit.com

Greatest Defensemen in NHL History

NHL dynasties were built around these elite defenders.

www.stadiumtalk.com

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Bourque, loved his game and watching him play. Top 10 though, I don't believe so.
It's tough just to rate where he falls just amongst Bruins players nevermind historically league wide. Great player.

I've seen Orr, Park, Bourque, Chara all play and just my top five Bruins defenseman are:
1. Orr
2. Shore
3. Bourque
4. Park
5. Chara
I firmly believe just within the Bruins organization arguments could be made for the rankings for defenseman of 2 through 4 as being somewhat interchangeable and it's all subjective. Bourque could be rated as high as 2 and Shore as low as 4 and I think Park falls 3 or 4 either way. Was Park the best defenseman to never win a cup or Norris - 8 time runner up to Orr? Shore 4 league MVPs before there was a Norris. Bourque has 5 Norris/5 runner ups, longevity and prolonged high level of play setting him a part, but won his cup elsewhere. I do think Bourque should have also won an MVP one year as well.

Bourque is outside top 10 historically league wide; most likely depending on preferences he falls somewhere in the 12 - 25 range.

Actually, only 4 times runner-up to Orr. Two times to Potvin.

I don't really think there is a good argument for Bourque not being in the top 20.

Consider Bourque's career plus/minus, +527. That's 3rd all-time behind Larry Robinson (+722 playing for the gall-time great Montreal teams) and Boby Orr (+582).

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Here's a few off the first page of a google search "top 10 defensemen all time"

Top 10 NHL Defensemen of All Time

Hockey is known for its hard hits and fast action, players who usually get all the recognition are the biggest, baddest and most aggressive players on the ice...

bleacherreport.com

The Best NHL Defensemen Ever - The Hockey Writers Hockey History Latest News, Analysis & More

THW's Best NHL Lineup of all-time. Who were the best NHL defensemen ever? We offer up 7 of the game's greats for you to peruse & discuss.

thehockeywriters.com

NHL Top 10 Defensemen All Time

NHL Top 10 Defensemen All Time #10 Phil Housley Housley was drafted 6th overall in 1982 by the Buffalo Sabres. He played professional hockey in the NHL from 1982-83 to 2002-03. Housley

tedtalkshockey.com

Best NHL Defensemen of All Time - Top 20 Blueliners Counted Down | Hockey Hermit

Who are the greatest NHL defenseman ever? Hockey Hermit counts down the 20 best blueliners in NHL history. From Chris Pronger to Bobby Orr see which stars from yesterday and today made the cut.

www.hockeyhermit.com

Greatest Defensemen in NHL History

NHL dynasties were built around these elite defenders.

www.stadiumtalk.com

Thought we were talking in the confines of this thread. My bad.

The likes of Bleacher Report are a joke. Simply goading fans with ridiculous ranks in all sports. And who the hell is Ted? His top 10 looks like an 11-year-old's. Doesn't even have Bourque, but has Phil Housley?

But I will agree that there are many people (who have good arguments) for Lidstrom slightly over Bourque. Lidstrom's play was close to flawless and he was on Cup winning teams four times. It's not a horrible take.

 

[BobbyAwe]

How

Actually, only 6 times. 4 times behind Orr, twice behind Potvin.

Park's knees were almost as bad as Orr's. The 2nd half of his career was almost slow motion compared to his early years.

He also put on a lot of weight. I think he got to 200 pounds and he was only 5'10 at best. (I know he was listed at 6'0" originally but I look at him in team photos next to players whose heights are generally certain and he LOOKS 5'9???)

How much faster was Park in the first few years of his career? There's couple early Ranger games on YouTube with him and he didn't seem to be more than an average skater to begin with?

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Bourque is the Gordie Howe of defensemen...a 20 year career of nothing but elite peak. That is what puts him in the Top 10 range (8-12 IMO)

Howe scoring finishes: 1,1,1,1,1,1,2,3,3,3,3,3,4,4,4,5,5,5,5,5...19x total
Bourque Norris finishes: 1,1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,3,3,3,3,4,4,4,4...19x total

Howe: 12x AS-1, 9x AS-2...21 total
Bourque: 13x AS-1, 6x AS-2...19 total

 

[BobbyAwe]

In his last year in the

Bourque is the Gordie Howe of defensemen...a 20 year career of nothing but elite peak. That is what puts him in the Top 10 range (8-12 IMO)

Howe scoring finishes: 1,1,1,1,1,1,2,3,3,3,3,3,4,4,4,5,5,5,5,5...19x total
Bourque Norris finishes: 1,1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,3,3,3,3,4,4,4,4...19x total

Howe: 12x AS-1, 9x AS-2...21 total
Bourque: 13x AS-1, 6x AS-2...19 total

In his last year in the league, Bourque was a 1st team all-star and came in SECOND for the Norris.

He was 40 years old.

 

[Number8]

Pretty straightforward… if we were to make a list of the 10 best NHL players of all time regardless of position, would Ray be in the top 10?

Disclaimer: Bourque was my favorite player when I was growing up.

Love Bubba -- however, as others have pointed out, top 10 defensemen -- yes, all day long. Top 10 players overall - all time? No way. And that's not a slight on Ray. Just a reflection of the number of great players over history.

Even if you count Original Six -- maybe not top to overall. Think of Habs and Bruins alone and you've got several ahead of Ray.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

How

He also put on a lot of weight. I think he got to 200 pounds and he was only 5'10 at best. (I know he was listed at 6'0" originally but I look at him in team photos next to players whose heights are generally certain and he LOOKS 5'9???)

How much faster was Park in the first few years of his career? There's couple early Ranger games on YouTube with him and he didn't seem to be more than an average skater to begin with?

As us old farts like to say, "I don't know about that".

Of course, we also have memories that are below average at best.

Yes Park did get heavier. Much like Bourque.