Is it time for a rebuild ?

[Frenzy31]

Players obviously don't want to tank, but the reality is that it doesn't matter. They're not good enough and are one of the top 5 oldest teams in the league. St. Louis isn't a prime free agent destination when we're not winning and we're low on cap space. Snuggerud is looking to be our only potential high impact prospect, and he's still years away. Short of more rabbit out of the hat trades like the Buchnevich trade, we don't have many options. There's a lack of adequate ability on this roster and next year is looking worse. Once your roster gets old and starts to take steps back it's hard to go in the positive direction unless you have real talent coming through the system.

Bolduc is looking like a high impact prospect. Don't sell him short. Nieghbors is playing very well in the AHL - 9 points in 16 games (Schwartz had 19 in 33).

When we don't play well, everyone tends to look at everything in the worst possible light.

 

[Reality Czech]

Players obviously don't want to tank, but the reality is that it doesn't matter. They're not good enough and are one of the top 5 oldest teams in the league. St. Louis isn't a prime free agent destination when we're not winning and we're low on cap space. Snuggerud is looking to be our only potential high impact prospect, and he's still years away. Short of more rabbit out of the hat trades like the Buchnevich trade, we don't have many options. There's a lack of adequate ability on this roster and next year is looking worse. Once your roster gets old and starts to take steps back it's hard to go in the positive direction unless you have real talent coming through the system.

Science | AAAS

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I swear some of you just can't help but be negative all the time. I do get what you're saying but I counter with: we have two of the best young up and coming players in the league signed long term, STL's reputation among players isn't that bad, we've signed solid free agents every offseason, we've got an ownership group committed to winning, and there will obviously be a new direction after this season no matter what happens.

You're entitled to your prediction but there is no guarantee what will happen. I still remember how toxic and negative fans were in the fall/winter of 2018-19. Not saying we're gonna go on a magical championship run again but it just goes to show that the unexpected can happen. We've had a lot of success over the last decade, fans need to accept that there will be ups and downs. The expectations among fans are rarely realistic around here.

 

[PJJJP]

A total rebuild in my opinion is trying to get rid of Parayko, buch, Saad, Schenn, Faulk in addition to ROR, Barbashev, and Tarasenko. We aren't going to do that. We will probably retool and get some first round picks/target younger players and go at it in 2 years. It will take some very creative trades and excellent pro scouting but it could be done.

 

[BlueSeal]

I don't want to tank, so don't include me in the "we" you speak of. Watching crappy, uninspired hockey in the hopes they will be good again in 3-5 years doesn't sound very appealing to me.

You talk about it from the owners' and fans' perspective, but what about the players? I'm pretty sure they always wanna win and don't give up hope like many fans do. Having a losing mentality is what poisoned the Oilers for so many years, regardless of how many high picks they had. That's why I think teams should only tank when they literally have no other choice, and we aren't close to that point yet. Trading a UFA you can't re-sign makes sense but that's a lot different than a full on tank.

I was being general in my we. I run a tuna boat for crying out loud, I don’t want us to tank either. My apologies bro and to anyone else who was offended by that.

 

[Reality Czech]

I was being general in my we. I run a tuna boat for crying out loud, I don’t want us to tank either. My apologies bro and to anyone else who was offended by that.

Not offended at all, in fact I think the tank train and tuna boat thing is pretty damn funny. We've gotta stay amused somehow when the team is struggling. I just don't see things as dire as some people do, but of course everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

[Thallis]

I agree with most of what you say, but we aren't looking at a full on tank. A burn it down rebuild would be a situation where we have no high level prospects, no high level youth currently playing; and a bunch of past their prime, once top tier talent, who are killing your ability to make moves because they are eating up cap. That's when you fire sale. Take a look at Chicago right now. Look how long they've been in the cellar and you can see what happens when you push your team to that point. Good GM's, like the one we have, make moves to keep the window open as long as possible. However, at some point, you reach a plateau where you simply can't do any more. We've given up prospect after prospect and pick after pick to keep that window open. We're at a split in the path where it's time to make a decision as to whether this team, as currently assembled, has a chance. I don't thing anyone, even homers, believes that. I think Tank and ROR are moved by the TDL.

Whether or not we need to do that remains to be seen. Chicago had Dach and Debrincat and opted to trade them because their prime will doesn't match up with the competitive window for their next round of draft picks. That's too far into the future for me to look at, but I wouldn't be surprised if we ended up doing the same with Buch, Kyrou, and/or Thomas. We need stud defensemen badly and they take time to develop.

Bolduc is looking like a high impact prospect. Don't sell him short. Nieghbors is playing very well in the AHL - 9 points in 16 games (Schwartz had 19 in 33).

When we don't play well, everyone tends to look at everything in the worst possible light.

Bolduc had a rough showing at camp and was just cut from the Canadian WJC team in a year where he probably should have been a lock. I was hopeful on him, but it's an undeniable setback.

Neighbors will be an nhler, but whether he is an impact player remains to be seen. He's projected as a middle six ceiling guy by most scouting services, and while they can and are often wrong, I haven't seen much in his pro career so far to make me think otherwise.

Science | AAAS

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I swear some of you just can't help but be negative all the time. I do get what you're saying but I counter with: we have two of the best young up and coming players in the league signed long term, STL's reputation among players isn't that bad, we've signed solid free agents every offseason, we've got an ownership group committed to winning, and there will obviously be a new direction after this season no matter what happens.

You're entitled to your prediction but there is no guarantee what will happen. I still remember how toxic and negative fans were in the fall/winter of 2018-19. Not saying we're gonna go on a magical championship run again but it just goes to show that the unexpected can happen. We've had a lot of success over the last decade, fans need to accept that there will be ups and downs. The expectations among fans are rarely realistic around here.

I don't know if we can consider #39 and #61 in PPG for players with 20+ games as two of the best young players in the league. They're obviously great players, but the league is different from even 5 years ago. PPG is no longer enough to be considered in that top tier of players, that's reserved for the 100+ point players now. They're good to have, but I don't think they're enough with how the rest of the system, especially on defense, looks like.

Free Agency I'm basing off how long it took for players to even consider playering here in the early 2010s. We went after so many guys to try and shore up our centers & left side of the D and nobody would even consider us until we had made a deep run. We were largely relegated to signing journeymen like the Derek Roys of the class. If we're not seen as a real contender by players around the league, it's likely that returns as the status quo.

Feel free to think I'm negative, but hope is not a strategy. We are old. Our defense is rough and signed long term. We don't control the puck or get the better of chances. All these things have been true for a while now. In 2018-2019 there were legitimate signs that there was a good hockey team underneath the record once we got rid of Yeo, and those just aren't there this year. I want to compete for the Stanley Cup or be a step closer to it every year, and sometimes that means starting over again.

I want to rebuild because I have accepted there will be ups and downs. We got our cup, we have good ownership and a loyal fanbase. I remember the excitement of our run in 2009 and how fun it was to watch legitimate young talent grow into leaders and NHL players while still having new kids just around the corner. We can sell a rebuild to the city and create a new 10+ year window with the players that come out of it. What I don't want to do is wallow in the mediocrity of just trying to make the playoffs for 3-5 years before we make the same decision we should be making right now. The way I see it is that we would need some significant luck with an unexpected prospect becoming a superstar very quickly or some wizardry from Doug Armstrong to change course at this point. It's possible, but not particularly likely.

 

[PocketNines]

I think what's unappreciated is the connection between building a team around a #1 defenseman and the situation of the Blues ownership group.

It's pointed out often that the team needs to make the playoffs consistently in order to field a competitive team because the money to field that team is more attached to playoff revenue in STL than in some other deeper pocketed places. The valuation of the franchise has a lot of intangible valuation, and the owners do need operating cash flow so I get the need to compete annually. It's also more fun as a fan. Yes we only have one Cup but we can pretty much count on being part of the playoffs which is the most fun time for hockey.

The franchise experience of the Blues strongly suggests you have a #1 defenseman with a defensive strength surrounded by an NHL-average roster, you will have a higher regular season floor than a top forward or top goalie similarly surrounded by an NHL-average roster. The Blues sought that piece in Erik Johnson and he wasn't quite the guy but as soon as they realized they did have another #1 anchor in house they built on that foundation they knew they could count on. Having that #1 defenseman who constantly cleared the zone and constantly thwarted defensive rushes, having an elite stick from the blue line to the faceoff circle and the corners allowed the team to keep on a calm even keel and remain in games that too many skilled rushes and forechecks would have put out of reach otherwise.

High event hockey is more exciting moment to moment within the game but more outcome-volatile and that's what we are witnessing in our post #1 defenseman era currently. If building a playoff foundation with playoff revenue year after year is the goal then a #1 defenseman is the better way to reach that outcome.

 

[execwrite1]

According to the box scores, the team is selling out every game. Great tribute to the fan base and a resource to rebuild to keep the cash flowing.

 

[Majorityof1]

Science | AAAS

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I swear some of you just can't help but be negative all the time. I do get what you're saying but I counter with: we have two of the best young up and coming players in the league signed long term, STL's reputation among players isn't that bad, we've signed solid free agents every offseason, we've got an ownership group committed to winning, and there will obviously be a new direction after this season no matter what happens.

You're entitled to your prediction but there is no guarantee what will happen. I still remember how toxic and negative fans were in the fall/winter of 2018-19. Not saying we're gonna go on a magical championship run again but it just goes to show that the unexpected can happen. We've had a lot of success over the last decade, fans need to accept that there will be ups and downs. The expectations among fans are rarely realistic around here.

Edmonton has two of the best young players in the league. And arguably the two best, as in #1 and #2 best. They still missed the playoffs or lost in the first round several years. Before last year those guys had 1 playoff round win. That is still better than Toronto who has 2 top 10 forwards in Matthews and Marner, plus Nylander who is on par with Kyrou and Thomas. They can't win a playoff round.

Thomas and Kyrou are not close to as good as either of those pairs. So my point is that it takes a lot more than 2 good young guys who are probably in the top 50 best NHL players, maybe top 30. But if we are comparing the best pairs of players around the NHL, they aren't it. There are probably 10 or more teams with a better pair of players. And it takes a lot more than a solid pair to win. So I just don't get what it matters that we have 2 near point per game guys in a league where Rantanen at 1.3 ppg isn't even in the top 10 and 45 players with more than 25 games are 1 point per game or higher.

 

[Mike Liut]

Players obviously don't want to tank, but the reality is that it doesn't matter. They're not good enough and are one of the top 5 oldest teams in the league. St. Louis isn't a prime free agent destination when we're not winning and we're low on cap space. Snuggerud is looking to be our only potential high impact prospect, and he's still years away. Short of more rabbit out of the hat trades like the Buchnevich trade, we don't have many options. There's a lack of adequate ability on this roster and next year is looking worse. Once your roster gets old and starts to take steps back it's hard to go in the positive direction unless you have real talent coming through the system.

I just said recently we’ll be drafting in the top 10 the next 4-5 years. That’s depressing

 

[Ricky Bobby]

Run? I don't see how we creep into a divisional playoff spot with the roster as built. I have trouble seeing us claw our way into a wildcard spot, but conceed it could happen...

But run? This team might not get swept but isn't going to make it past either of the division leaders in round 1. I'd be very surprised if we managed to force a game 6 to give the owners 3 home games of playoffs revenues...

If there was a season to sell, it's this one. We Blues fans have been gifted with a playoff team for a long time - but we definitely don't want to be the next Detroit, getting to the playoffs for years when it was clear their window was overvat the expense of setting up a dark decade before having a shot at relevance again. We already have a handful of comparable traits, we don't need more. We need to pivot into a rebuild with some assets that will help from the potential ROR and Tarasenko trades.

Exactly how I see it.

Rip the bandaid off and get value for the highly desired UFAs who can bring in assets that can help accelerate a rebuild.

Then in the offseason reassess but with the cap not really rising next deadline is probably when further big deals are made as the cap is project to rise in 2 seasons which will help make players with term more appealing to other teams.

 

[ValHaller]

Scandella and Perunovich on their way back soonish. Given this ownership group's proclivities, is it too much to hope Scandy plays mediocrely again and he gets bought out?

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Scandella and Perunovich on their way back soonish. Given this ownership group's proclivities, is it too much to hope Scandy plays mediocrely again and he gets bought out?

With only one year left after this one we'd probably see a trade with retention long before a buy out.

 

[simon IC]

Please keep the discussion about hockey and not about each other.

 

[Reality Czech]

I just said recently we’ll be drafting in the top 10 the next 4-5 years. That’s depressing

Hopefully that prediction is as accurate as your prediction about us being 10 games under .500 by the end of this month.

Seriously man, you're getting depressed about things that haven't even happened and may not happen. Reading this forum makes me depressed, sheesh.

 

[Mike Liut]

Hopefully that prediction is as accurate as your prediction about us being 10 games under .500 by the end of this month.

Seriously man, you're getting depressed about things that haven't even happened and may not happen. Reading this forum makes me depressed, sheesh.

My predictions never come true, so I wouldn’t worry.

 

[ValHaller]

Is it too optimistic at this point to think ROR could return a 1st? His value must have tanked to such an extent that it's in question now, at 0.44 Pts/game so far and a -26 already which is already -3 worse than his worst season in Buffalo.

 

[PJJJP]

Is it too optimistic at this point to think ROR could return a 1st? His value must have tanked to such an extent that it's in question now, at 0.44 Pts/game so far and a -26 already which is already -3 worse than his worst season in Buffalo.

I think ROR reputations carries a lot of value. Plus there this guy in Toronto who loves to pay for veteran grit and leaderships (Foglino trade), so I'm sure we can work something out with him . We are not going to be getting a first and a A/A- prospect. But a first and a small add isn't that unreasonable

 

[BlueSeal]

It’s really simple: trade up for a bonafide 1D and we’re good. It’s the one thing we don’t got and if Army is as good as we know he is, he will provide.

 

[ValHaller]

It’s really simple: trade up for a bonafide 1D and we’re good. It’s the one thing we don’t got and if Army is as good as we know he is, he will provide.

Who do you have in mind?

 

[PocketNines]

They are so scarce and difficult to acquire and they seem* to want NMCs based on an awareness of the scarcity principle.

*Could be coincidence that they get NMCs and they get them for a reason other than them wanting them (like, maybe the GM is making them take the NMC?), but Occam's Razor suggests they want them.

 

[Stealth JD]

They are so scarce and difficult to acquire and they seem* to want NMCs based on an awareness of the scarcity principle.

*Could be coincidence that they get NMCs and they get them for a reason other than them wanting them (like, maybe the GM is making them take the NMC?), but Occam's Razor suggests they want them.

Imagine Doug Armstrong here to negotiate Chris Pronger’s extension; in some bizarro universe where Laurie didn’t go scorched-Earth on the way out.

“Sorry, Chris. We know you’ve got a Norris and a Hart on your resume…but we’re going to have to draw the line at a modified-NTC and ‘good’ but not ‘great’ money. What do you say?”

 

[Thallis]

It’s really simple: trade up for a bonafide 1D and we’re good. It’s the one thing we don’t got and if Army is as good as we know he is, he will provide.

Is he going to just conjure one at the altar?

 

[TruBlu]

A number one dman will not solve all our problems. It's the most glaring need at the moment, and would make the most difference, but take a look at the team we'll have at the end of this season and tell me how excited it makes you? We are currently the 4th oldest team in the league, we have no real prospects to be excited about, we've not stockpiled any picks to help restock, and we are about to lose the two best players on our team for nothing if we keep them to make a run for the playoffs. We've had a really long open cup window, much longer than you normally see, all thanks to the quality of our GM and scouting staff. We've mortgaged away countless first round draft picks in an attempt to retool on the fly several times in the last decade. It worked, we got a cup, and I'll forever be grateful we did. As is the case in a salary cap league, this is always going to eventually happen, it's just all in how well you manage it as far as keeping your window open. I don't think this is a burn it down situation, but this is more than just a minor retool, even if we start making moves right now. I don't want to see a return to early 2000's Blues hockey and that's where we are headed unless we get some return on Tank and ROR.

 

[BlueSeal]

Army doesn't negotiate. He gives what he wants and lets it be what it is. We have several examples of that.