Is it time for a rebuild ?

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Reality Czech

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Larry Robinson could coach Tory Krug seven days a week, 24 hours a day and couldn't turn him into an NHL defenseman.

Kind of a foolish thing to say about a guy who's about to play his 700th NHL game on defense. I know it's easy to pile on Krug, but he's been a +32 for his career despite this year's rough numbers. Y'all put way too much on coaching, as if these guys haven't been playing hockey almost every day since they were little kids.
 

BlueOil

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I always wonder how much respect is due. Whenever I say, “with all due respect”, I usually have little respect for the other.

With all due respect, meaning, none is due.
it's like saying excuse me after you fart, still stinks even if you excuse them
 
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Stupendous Yappi

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Dude, why don't you read the articles? He wasn't behind the bench after late December. Even in the playoffs, he wasn't behind the bench. He could sit in the team box and say guys, this is what I see, this is what I think but he's still not in the locker room telling guys that, getting the white board out and diagramming what they need to do, and whatever else you think he was doing as an assistant coach next to Berube, Ott and Van Ryn for 60 minutes + OT a game that he really wasn't.

Someone else had to take his comments, decide whether they had wait, and then communicate that to the guys in the locker room. That's either Berube, Ott or Van Ryn. You're not seriously suggesting any or all of them were morons who couldn't have functioned at more than has-a-pulse level without the super-genius level contributions of one Larry Robinson, are you?

Look, I get it's difficult to say "sorry, I was wrong" but for crying out loud, please quit conflating "assistant coach for a few weeks" with "assistant coach, vital cog in the locker room for 2 months, such a key contributor to the Stanley Cup that everything goes to hell without him."
There is a semantic argument about his role, and then there is a practical distinction. From numerous interviews with Armstrong, Berube and multiple players, it sure sounds like Robinson made a bigger commitment and was involved a lot more during that 2019 end of season and postseason than you seem to be acknowledging. Maybe the name of the role was different. Probably it was more flexible in the time commitment, certainly more so than a full time assistant.

Yikes- I hadn’t read to the end of the thread yet. Sorry I responded.
 
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bleedblue1223

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I'm having trouble finding it, but wasn't Robinson the one behind mixing up the pairs and putting Bouwmeester with Parayko, and freeing Pietrangelo up for more of a balanced role?
 

ChicagoBlues

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it's like saying excuse me after you fart, still stinks even if you excuse them
Reminds me of a time at a bar out here talking with a couple bikers, who reminded us of the new law that they can weave in and out of traffic.

I told him, “If I kill you, sorry in advance, but not really.”
 
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execwrite1

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Kind of a foolish thing to say about a guy who's about to play his 700th NHL game on defense. I know it's easy to pile on Krug, but he's been a +32 for his career despite this year's rough numbers. Y'all put way too much on coaching, as if these guys haven't been playing hockey almost every day since they were little kids.

Equating whatever Krug did in the past compared to what he is now - kind of a foolish thing to say - just my opinion.
 

DatDude44

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We need to be patient with fixing our D-core.... I do think that group is better than they've showed this season. Tho that doesn't mean I'm particularly confident in them lol... But it's evident krug has been hurt all year, Faulk must be playing hurt because he's been abysmal since that hot start and leddy imo has been fine, but because of krugs injury etc... we've had to play leddy wayyyy above his head and in turn, we get the results we get.... I think we need use draft capital to find our next elite #1 or to use in deals to acquire an elite #1..... (Looking at reinbacher with our highest 1st, unless of course it's top 5) There's just simply no easy fix given the contracts and age etc.... we can't just buy out krug, no point in trading leddy unless he fetches a real return and faulk and parayko aren't gonna be going anywhere. Let it work itself out, while we focus on developing the next wave of our fwd core.

I think this deadline and offseason unless somehow, a reasonable chycrun type trade just happens to cross doug's table....I think we make a commitment to retooling the fwd core around thomas, kyrou, schenn, buch, Saad and maybe a signing? but really an influx over the next season or two of Neighbours, snuggy, Bolduc, (hopefully one of our 1sts fetched some trades) & Alexandrov should provide alot of quality support to our already established core, tho it might take time for them to settle in etc...

I think we're in a delicate spot, that if handled correctly (trading ROR, Tank, Barbs for real assets) could turn this alleged (rebuild) into more of a retool that only required one true tank or bad year followed by an influx of youth that even if next year we aren't great, we're finally back to a team that's climbing up the mountain, rather than a team descending down from our 2019 peak.
I kinda nailed my prediction in february about this offseason....lol......Tho I was hoping i'd be wrong, almost was too.

Our D core is going to take time to fix given the contract situation. However, I'd be shocked if this group didn't improve, if not for health and new system/structure changes alone. Heard alot about the organization changing our style of play defensively going into next season. I'm praying we either break down vegas's DZ system(D don't chase above the hash,, C will roll up and front if need be) or Seattles (Wingers stay in basically a zone, SSW won't roll to middle or stay with their D if they dive down.)

We need a more basic focus on creating low doubles on the walls, and when the puck rolls high, our D need to already be or atleast working themselves inside the dots and establishing inside position/boxing out opp. fwds. We were way to easy to play against last year and personally I hate man on man, which is essentially what we ran.
 
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Stupendous Yappi

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I think Army did a great job with this re-tool so far. Very happy with Dean and also this years draft. We are locked and loaded for a 2025 deep run after we address 1LD.
That Dean trade was pretty huge, getting a 1st round talent with on-track development for Barabshev as a rental. Its a win-win trade, as he was instrumental in their Cup run (and re-signed), but the Blues got maximum value for him too. So the Blues added 4 1st-round players this year, plus inferred value for whatever becomes of Vrana and Kapanen. Armstrong did a heck of a job creating draft capital out of what he had to work with.
 

Linkens Mastery

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I'm really hoping Dean, Dvorsky, and Snuggles takes the steps to be NHLers by next season (24-25).

Buchnevich-Thomas-Kyrou
Saad-Schenn-Neighbours
Hayes-Dvorsky-Snuggy
Blais-Dean-Toropchenko

I kinda wish Hayes only had 2 years instead of 3 but there shouldn't really be a problem moving him either. Especially if we eat 50% of his 3.5mil cap hit. We could also find a way to move Schenn to the Wing as well. But we have a very nice set of forward prospects.
 

DatDude44

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I'm really hoping Dean, Dvorsky, and Snuggles takes the steps to be NHLers by next season (24-25).

Buchnevich-Thomas-Kyrou
Saad-Schenn-Neighbours
Hayes-Dvorsky-Snuggy
Blais-Dean-Toropchenko

I kinda wish Hayes only had 2 years instead of 3 but there shouldn't really be a problem moving him either. Especially if we eat 50% of his 3.5mil cap hit. We could also find a way to move Schenn to the Wing as well. But we have a very nice set of forward prospects.
I like the premise, tho line combo wise I’d hope it’s more spread out. Especially if we can shelter kyrous matchups like we did in 21-22 when he broke out.

Would love to see something like:
Buchnevich-Thomas-Snuggs
Schenn-Dvorsky- Kyrou
Neighbours-Hayes-Saad/Blais
Blais-Dean-Torpedo/sunny

Tho obvi that’s asking alot of the children.
But it’d be fun to watch lol

The kid I think everyone’s sleeping on being a nice player for us, similar to how sunny was slept on, is Alexandrov. I think his game is super underrated by fans, smart, heavy on the puck with some skill and good defensively. Agility skating and holding speed/power out of turns or quick changes of direction seemed to be his biggest physical need outside of just natural physical development/becoming a man
 

DeuceNine

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Krug’s still good in his own right. The issue is his shortcomings are exacerbated because of how the roster, especially, the defense is constructed.
This. It's the exact same phenomenon that goalies in particular suffer from when they play in Edmonton. Were they bad before? No, that's why they garnered interest to begin with. But they look terrible (generally) once they get there. Hmm, wonder if there's a correlation?
 

DatDude44

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This. It's the exact same phenomenon that goalies in particular suffer from when they play in Edmonton. Were they bad before? No, that's why they garnered interest to begin with. But they look terrible (generally) once they get there. Hmm, wonder if there's a correlation?
Correct. We made Brian Elliott and jaro halak Jennings winners, were they pretty good goalies? Sure, but clearly, it was the insanely defensive minded and well structured style we played that propelled their surface level statistics. Same thing just happened to adin hill too.

Very few G’s are true differencemakers relative to everybody else in the league. Which is why I believe investing that heavily into the position is dumb, unless it’s a vasilevskiy, Sorokin or shesterkin type
 
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Bye Bye Blueston

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Correct. We made Brian Elliott and jaro halak Jennings winners, were they pretty good goalies? Sure, but clearly, it was the insanely defensive minded and well structured style we played that propelled their surface level statistics. Same thing just happened to adin hill too.

Very few G’s are true differencemakers relative to everybody else in the league. Which is why I believe investing that heavily into the position is dumb, unless it’s a vasilevskiy, Sorokin or shesterkin type
Which is why I think it highly misguided to rank hofer as our 3rd best prospect.
 
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DatDude44

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Whicj is why I think it highly misguided to rank hofer as our 3rd best prospect.
Yeah I prefer ranking on what we think they’ll be once established, not how close to ready they are. Common sense assumes your ranking what that player becomes, not what he is today. Though HOFer does look like he could be a solid option in net.

There’s an argument to be made that upside wise, he isn’t even our top G prospect honestly, though I’m not sure if I’m there yet.
 
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Celtic Note

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Correct. We made Brian Elliott and jaro halak Jennings winners, were they pretty good goalies? Sure, but clearly, it was the insanely defensive minded and well structured style we played that propelled their surface level statistics. Same thing just happened to adin hill too.

Very few G’s are true differencemakers relative to everybody else in the league. Which is why I believe investing that heavily into the position is dumb, unless it’s a vasilevskiy, Sorokin or shesterkin type
Honestly I think you could make a similar claim for forwards and defensemen. There are very few true difference makers.

Parayko, for example, looked amazing when he wasn’t our defacto #1 D and now he isn’t looking so hot.
 
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DatDude44

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Honestly I think you could make a similar claim for forwards and defensemen. There are very few true difference makers.

Parayko, for example, looked amazing when he wasn’t our defacto #1 D and now he isn’t looking so hot.
He's still solid though, was one of the best defensive D in the NHL, but clearly overplayed and overused as a 1 which he's just not on top of the worst matchups of any D in the NHL.

But we all knew he wasn't a real #1 anyway, great complimentary Defensive type who can eat minutes though.

Not sure I see as much correlation there, my point is moreso average to above average goalies are practically the same in the NHL (especially since the position requires robot like mechanics and reads.), team success/team defense generally determines whether a jordan binnington or Adin Hill or thatcher demko or Robin Lehner have top 10 statistics or bottom 10 statistics....whereas unless they're on a truly pitiful team, Vasilevskiy, sorokin, Carey price for that matter will still be studs, even if the stats aren't as studly as usual. John gibson is probably the one goalie in the league who in a normal situation is arguably top5-7 in the league, but he's just been left out to dry for years now, tough to have the same mental intensity night in and night out when you're in that situation for a long time ya know. I'd love to see gibson in a new situation.
 

Stupendous Yappi

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Which is why I think it highly misguided to rank hofer as our 3rd best prospect.
While that's true, I can remember multiple years where the Blues had a decent nucleus and couldn't find a league average starter to let them be playoff worthy. NOT having that guy is definitely a difference-maker.
 
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Celtic Note

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He's still solid though, was one of the best defensive D in the NHL, but clearly overplayed and overused as a 1 which he's just not on top of the worst matchups of any D in the NHL.

But we all knew he wasn't a real #1 anyway, great complimentary Defensive type who can eat minutes though.

Not sure I see as much correlation there, my point is moreso average to above average goalies are practically the same in the NHL (especially since the position requires robot like mechanics and reads.), team success/team defense generally determines whether a jordan binnington or Adin Hill or thatcher demko or Robin Lehner have top 10 statistics or bottom 10 statistics....whereas unless they're on a truly pitiful team, Vasilevskiy, sorokin, Carey price for that matter will still be studs, even if the stats aren't as studly as usual. John gibson is probably the one goalie in the league who in a normal situation is arguably top5-7 in the league, but he's just been left out to dry for years now, tough to have the same mental intensity night in and night out when you're in that situation for a long time ya know. I'd love to see gibson in a new situation.
I mean Binnington is pretty average and he was critical to our Cup. Not every average goalie could have pulled that off. Husso floundered in the playoffs (in fairness to him, he hasn’t had much experience there). As did Allen and Halak.

Agreed on Gibson.

I agree that many goalies are a dime a dozen. But a good one is critical to success. I think there are plenty of dime a dozen forwards and D as well
 

DatDude44

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I mean Binnington is pretty average and he was critical to our Cup. Not every average goalie could have pulled that off. Husso floundered in the playoffs (in fairness to him, he hasn’t had much experience there). As did Allen and Halak.

Agreed on Gibson.

I agree that many goalies are a dime a dozen. But a good one is critical to success. I think there are plenty of dime a dozen forwards and D as well
Binnington just proves my point more, similiar to Adin Hill. Binner is very much a middle of the pack goaltender talent wise(Though we on here as blues fans can argue playoff Binner is a different beast) but at the end of the day, most seasons, Binners gonna fluctuate statistically anywhere from fringe top 10 numbers to fringe bottom 10-12'ish numbers most years.....obvi this year was an outlier and most of us on this board are intelligent enough to know that most of the games we hung in this season were thanks to him. His stats this particualr year on a putrid defensive team were well below what his talent level and eye test suggest.

I generally would rank binner in the 12-18 range amongst NHL starting goalies, if you could somehow hypothetically put each goalie on an equivalent team ya know.
 
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DeuceNine

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Binnington just proves my point more, similiar to Adin Hill. Binner is very much a middle of the pack goaltender talent wise(Though we on here as blues fans can argue playoff Binner is a different beast) but at the end of the day, most seasons, Binners gonna fluctuate statistically anywhere from fringe top 10 numbers to fringe bottom 10-12'ish numbers most years.....obvi this year was an outlier and most of us on this board are intelligent enough to know that most of the games we hung in this season were thanks to him. His stats this particualr year on a putrid defensive team were well below what his talent level and eye test suggest.

I generally would rank binner in the 12-18 range amongst NHL starting goalies, if you could somehow hypothetically put each goalie on an equivalent team ya know.
I think people would have to go out of their way to find a way to place him outside of top 10, especially since parity and goaltending structure in training and methods makes everyone below 5 on that list interchangeable in most ways.
 

DatDude44

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I personally don't put binner over any of J. Gibson(personal eye test and international relevance), sorokin, shesterkin, Vasilevskiy, Kuemper, Saros, Oettinger, Demko, Ullmark, Andersen, Bobrovsky, Vejmelka and hellebuyck not that he's like far below all these guys to me, but it's not that crazy to put him in that middle of the pack starter tier, especially a non blues fan ranking, but he has playoff beast ability and that should still be a factor.
 

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I personally don't put binner over any of J. Gibson(personal eye test and international relevance), sorokin, shesterkin, Vasilevskiy, Kuemper, Saros, Oettinger, Demko, Ullmark, Andersen, Bobrovsky, Vejmelka and hellebuyck not that he's like far below all these guys to me, but it's not that crazy to put him in that middle of the pack starter tier, especially a non blues fan ranking, but he has playoff beast ability and that should still be a factor.
There is about 1/4 of league with great goalies, 1/2 that are generally good but vary year to year, and 1/4 that aren't getting it done. Binny is in the middle group.
 
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