Is it time for a rebuild ?

[Thallis]

The Blues won’t be bad for 3+ years.

Even in 2006 when we had our fire sale, we made the playoffs in 2009. And that is when we started from scratch with NOTHING.

This team already has a solid core of players and prospects, so we’re way ahead of the curve. Unless things go terribly wrong I just can’t see us still sucking in 2 years. We should absolutely be competitive.

Heck even for how shitty this year has been, we would be in playoff contention right now if we had just won 3 more games. I can think of 3 disastrous losses off the top of my head easily: getting blown out 5-0 to the Yotes, dropping both games to the lowly Habs, and that clunker at home against Chicago. There’s really no excuse for losing all of those games and if next year’s team decides to give a shit, winning games like that puts them in direct competition for the 8th playoff spot. It’s not really that tall of a task.

Not sure how you figure this. Winning 3 more of those games would put us 9 points back with 3 games in hand. We’d have to win all 3 to be in striking distance of the 8 seed with 8 games to go, we’d still be in last of the 4 teams jockeying for that position with not much room for error.

 

[BlueDream]

Not sure how you figure this. Winning 3 more of those games would put us 9 points back with 3 games in hand. We’d have to win all 3 to be in striking distance of the 8 seed with 8 games to go, we’d still be in last of the 4 teams jockeying for that position with not much room for error.

We’d be 7 points back with 2 games in hand. How is that not being in contention for that spot?

 

[Thallis]

We’d be 7 points back with 2 games in hand. How is that not being in contention for that spot?

Winnipeg is at 85 points with 74 games played. 3 more wins would put us at 76 points with 71 games played. We would also be 4 points behind Nashville at even games played, but also 5 behind Calgary with 3 games in hand. We’d need to win all of those games to be ahead of 1 of the 3 ahead of us. There would be 8 games left to gain 5 points & pass 2 teams to sneak into the playoffs. That’s still long shot odds assuming we magically conjured 3 wins all in regulation to gain a tiebreaker over 2/3 teams.

 

[BlueDream]

Winnipeg is at 85 points with 74 games played. 3 more wins would put us at 76 points with 71 games played. We would also be 4 points behind Nashville at even games played, but also 5 behind Calgary with 3 games in hand. We’d need to win all of those games to be ahead of 1 of the 3 ahead of us. There would be 8 games left to gain 5 points & pass 2 teams to sneak into the playoffs. That’s still long shot odds assuming we magically conjured 3 wins all in regulation to gain a tiebreaker over 2/3 teams.

There’s currently a game going on that they’re about to win, so they’d be 7 points back with 2 games in hand. With how poor Winnipeg is looking recently that wouldn’t have been out of reach at all.

Regardless, feels like a pointless argument. I picked 3 wins because that does show they would at least be in the race. Would it be better if I said 5 wins? Point being, they’re really not that far off. The team looked like they weren’t even trying after the ROR trade. With all that considered I’m pretty optimistic we could win 5 more games next season.

 

[execwrite1]

One path to the playoffs next year -

Hofer in the nets.
Bolduc and Dean make the team.
Move Krug

 

[Xerloris]

One path to the playoffs next year -

Hofer in the nets.
Bolduc and Dean make the team.
Move Krug

Not if our defensive coaching doesn't change. We could be a playoff team right now if our defense all year wasn't trash and that has very little to do with the players.

 

[Renard]

I can't assess the coaching staff. Its largely the same as the staff of the 2018-2019 season. Montgomery wasn't with us then.

So have these men forgotten how to coach? Are there new techniques these men don't know about?

Berube came to us with a reputation for having been good at developing young players. He'll get a chance to develop lots of young players in the next few years with the Blues. He will be useful developing Thomas and Kyrou too.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

I can't assess the coaching staff. Its largely the same as the staff of the 2018-2019 season. Montgomery wasn't with us then.

So have these men forgotten how to coach? Are there new techniques these men don't know about?

Berube came to us with a reputation for having been good at developing young players. He'll get a chance to develop lots of young players in the next few years with the Blues. He will be useful developing Thomas and Kyrou too.

Robinson was here in 19.

 

[Renard]

Robinson was here in 19.

Robinson was a special consultant for a couple of years, but then joined Berube behind the bench in November of 2018. He coached for 15 games in that capacity, from what I could find.

I also found a recording of an old interview in which Robinson said that in order for Parayko to take the next step forward, he needed to get meaner. That obviously hasn't happened.

With his vast experience, I'm sure Robinson was good to have around. But how much he contributed to our Cup winning, its hard to say.

Do you have more insight on Robinson's contribution in 2019?

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Robinson was a special consultant for a couple of years, but then joined Berube behind the bench in November of 2018. He coached for 15 games in that capacity, from what I could find.

I also found a recording of an old interview in which Robinson said that in order for Parayko to take the next step forward, he needed to get meaner. That obviously hasn't happened.

With his vast experience, I'm sure Robinson was good to have around. But how much he contributed to our Cup winning, its hard to say.

Do you have more insight on Robinson's contribution in 2019?

My recollection is he joined coaching staff down the stretch that year. And I got sense he did more coaching of d than MVR did.

 

[MissouriMook]

My recollection is he joined coaching staff down the stretch that year. And I got sense he did more coaching of d than MVR did.

I would expect that the plan was for Robinson's knowledge to be assimilated by MVR to be used to be a better coach going forward, but our current situation suggests that the student did not retain enough of the lessons of the master.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Robinson was a special consultant for a couple of years, but then joined Berube behind the bench in November of 2018. He coached for 15 games in that capacity, from what I could find.

I also found a recording of an old interview in which Robinson said that in order for Parayko to take the next step forward, he needed to get meaner. That obviously hasn't happened.

With his vast experience, I'm sure Robinson was good to have around. But how much he contributed to our Cup winning, its hard to say.

I'll second all of this, and double down on the first 2 parts. That was mentioned on the radio - KMOX Sports on a Sunday Morning? - earlier this year about the general poor play of the Blues and Parayko in particular. I distinctly recall in that segment that the host mentioned having talked with Robinson about Parayko and LR's remarks were along the lines of "I talked with him numerous times, others tried talking to him, we were out of ideas on what else to do, this is who he is" while trying not to really get into the details on things.

While I've always thought Parayko's potential - and certainly his impact and value to the team - were overstated, and I've been a fan of moving him for a while now, I recall listening to that and thinking and just think, we'll have this for another 8 years.

Re: coaching responsibility for the Cup and responsibility for things since - as noted, Robinson was long gone back to Florida before the Blues caught fire and did the Cup run. Even if you want to say Larry Robinson was responsible for that, he wasn't around the team for the last ~5 months and he wasn't around for 2019-20 when we were rolling and practically at the top of the NHL before the world went to hell. You gotta give some credit to Berube, Van Ryn, and the one guy who everyone seems to never mention when laying blame for what's going on: Steve Ott. And if we're trying to point the finger of blame at Berube and Van Ryn and make various claims about what they're doing that hurts the team or not doing to help the team, it mystifies me why Ott never gets even the first unkind word uttered about him.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Re: coaching responsibility for the Cup and responsibility for things since - as noted, Robinson was long gone back to Florida before the Blues caught fire and did the Cup run. Even if you want to say Larry Robinson was responsible for that, he wasn't around the team for the last ~5 months and he wasn't around for 2019-20 when we were rolling and practically at the top of the NHL before the world went to hell. You gotta give some credit to Berube, Van Ryn, and the one guy who everyone seems to never mention when laying blame for what's going on: Steve Ott. And if we're trying to point the finger of blame at Berube and Van Ryn and make various claims about what they're doing that hurts the team or not doing to help the team, it mystifies me why Ott never gets even the first unkind word uttered about him.

With all due respect, you're wrong about Robinson. He was with club as assistant for the Cup run: Robinson revisits Stanley Cup win by Blues during season pause

 

[Ted Hoffman]

With all due respect, you're wrong about Robinson. He was with club as assistant for the Cup run: Robinson revisits Stanley Cup win by Blues during season pause

With all due respect, it's been well-documented that Robinson's coaching work only had him around the team for a small part of the season. Nothing in the article you're touting suggests anything otherwise.

But, since you apparently want to hang on to that idea for dear life, I'll counter: Blues defense benefiting from HOFer Larry Robinson's experience | ProHockeyTalk | NBC Sports

When Craig Berube took over from Mike Yeo in November, Larry Robinson moved from senior consultant to hockey operations to assistant coach. A nine-time Stanley Cup winner as a player and coach, his addition to Berube’s staff brought plenty of knowledge to the job.

“To have a guy like that with that experience around, you can’t beat it. He’s an unbelievable man,” said Berube.

It was a position, however, that Robinson only took on until Christmas as he cited the travel being too much for his 68-year-old body.

Or, if you need something more "from the horse's mouth" - I'll give you: Robinson returns to role as Senior Consultant to Hockey Operations

Larry Robinson's time behind the Blues' bench has come to an end.

Robinson had been serving as an assistant coach with the Blues since late November, filling a role that became vacant when Craig Berube was named the Blues' head coach on Nov. 19.
Robinson will return to his role as the Blues' Senior Consultant to Hockey Operations, a position he's held since September 2017.

...

Robinson's move was expected. In November, when Blues General Manager Doug Armstrong originally announced that Robinson would be filling in behind the bench, Armstrong said he expected Robinson would be coaching for "three weeks to a month." Robinson served on Berube's staff for 15 games.

If you want to claim that the Blues were in touch with him, sure - they were, and no one is disputing that. But hands-on, in-person presence every day from late November through Game 7? No, he wasn't. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

With all due respect, it's been well-documented that Robinson's coaching work only had him around the team for a small part of the season. Nothing in the article you're touting suggests anything otherwise.

But, since you apparently want to hang on to that idea for dear life, I'll counter: Blues defense benefiting from HOFer Larry Robinson's experience | ProHockeyTalk | NBC Sports



Or, if you need something more "from the horse's mouth" - I'll give you: Robinson returns to role as Senior Consultant to Hockey Operations



If you want to claim that the Blues were in touch with him, sure - they were, and no one is disputing that. But hands-on, in-person presence every day from late November through Game 7? No, he wasn't. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

Dude, read the articles you linked. He was with the club daily during the playoff run:
"Now an eye in the sky during the playoffs, Robinson communicates things he sees from up top between periods. But it’s the defensemen who as a group have benefited most. With five players at least 6-foot-3 and Robinson listed at 6-foot-4, he knows the ins and outs of playing the position as a bigger player.

“It’s an advantage for us when we’re out there,” said 6-foot-4 Colton Parayko on working Robinson to improve his stick work. “It helps us where we can control the forward a little bit, which is important for us.”

Ask any of the defensemen and they’ll tell you that the way Robinson delivers his messages is in a clear manner and that the players aren’t overloaded with too much information. He knows just how to get his point through when he sees something that needs to be addressed."

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Dude, read the articles you linked. He was with the club daily during the playoff run:

Dude, why don't you read the articles? He wasn't behind the bench after late December. Even in the playoffs, he wasn't behind the bench. He could sit in the team box and say guys, this is what I see, this is what I think but he's still not in the locker room telling guys that, getting the white board out and diagramming what they need to do, and whatever else you think he was doing as an assistant coach next to Berube, Ott and Van Ryn for 60 minutes + OT a game that he really wasn't.

Someone else had to take his comments, decide whether they had wait, and then communicate that to the guys in the locker room. That's either Berube, Ott or Van Ryn. You're not seriously suggesting any or all of them were morons who couldn't have functioned at more than has-a-pulse level without the super-genius level contributions of one Larry Robinson, are you?

Look, I get it's difficult to say "sorry, I was wrong" but for crying out loud, please quit conflating "assistant coach for a few weeks" with "assistant coach, vital cog in the locker room for 2 months, such a key contributor to the Stanley Cup that everything goes to hell without him."

 

[ChicagoBlues]

I always wonder how much respect is due. Whenever I say, “with all due respect”, I usually have little respect for the other.

With all due respect, meaning, none is due.

 

[Celtic Note]

Incoming random collection of thoughts…

Regardless of whether he was coaching for very long, the Blues put Robinson on the bench for a reason. Things weren’t working. Then we saw better play when he was coaching.

While looking back to our Cup year may provide a lens to view this current coaching staff, it’s just one lens. Another lens takes us back further.

I still contend that Berube and staff inherited a team that knew how to play near excellent defensive hockey as a 5 man unit. As our core moved on over the years, so did that 5 man defensive mentality. Maybe that’s coincidence or maybe not.

I am not sure MVR ever knew how to coach anything more than offensive defensemen. Again, look back to what was inherited.

Is Steve Ott anything more than a hype man? I mean sometimes you need a booster shot. I don’t think I need one every day, so I am not sure how valuable Ott is exactly, but he seems to have value as a hype man and as a shit talker to the other team. I am sure talking is his greatest skill. I am not sure if he says anything particularly valuable. Hard to say. But if his coaching is anything like his playing, we’ll I wasn’t a fan of his game.

Even last year we were not very good defensively. But collectively our play swan-dove from then. The biggest coaching change was Monty to MacT. I think there is some clear loss there. I mean Boston just went on a historic run, while we engaged in a fantastic choke job. I think Monty is a pretty savvy coach. It seems there is a least some causality there.

Why MacT was ever even considered, other than for a chuckle, is beyond me. That’s some good ole boy club nonsense there.

I always wonder how much respect is due. Whenever I say, “with all due respect”, I usually have little respect for the other.

With all due respect, meaning, none is due.

With all due respect Chicago, I agree.

 

[DoubleK81]

Craig Mactavish replaced Montgomery, which has set forth the catastrophic events that have unfolded this season.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Dude, why don't you read the articles? He wasn't behind the bench after late December. Even in the playoffs, he wasn't behind the bench. He could sit in the team box and say guys, this is what I see, this is what I think but he's still not in the locker room telling guys that, getting the white board out and diagramming what they need to do, and whatever else you think he was doing as an assistant coach next to Berube, Ott and Van Ryn for 60 minutes + OT a game that he really wasn't.

Someone else had to take his comments, decide whether they had wait, and then communicate that to the guys in the locker room. That's either Berube, Ott or Van Ryn. You're not seriously suggesting any or all of them were morons who couldn't have functioned at more than has-a-pulse level without the super-genius level contributions of one Larry Robinson, are you?

Look, I get it's difficult to say "sorry, I was wrong" but for crying out loud, please quit conflating "assistant coach for a few weeks" with "assistant coach, vital cog in the locker room for 2 months, such a key contributor to the Stanley Cup that everything goes to hell without him."

Don’t be obtuse. He was “eye in the sky” coach with line to room. it’s in your own article you posted! I dont know why you can’t admit he wasn’t back in Florida relaxing during playoffs like you thought.

 

[Xerloris]

Don’t be obtuse. He was “eye in the sky” coach with line to room. it’s in your own article you posted! I dont know why you can’t admit he wasn’t back in Florida relaxing during playoffs like you thought.

If you admit the coaching is different then you can't blame the players like so many want to do.

 

[execwrite1]

Larry Robinson could coach Tory Krug seven days a week, 24 hours a day and couldn't turn him into an NHL defenseman.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Don’t be obtuse. He was “eye in the sky” coach with line to room. it’s in your own article you posted! I dont know why you can’t admit he wasn’t back in Florida relaxing during playoffs like you thought.

JFC, you keep hanging on to ROBINSON WAS HERE! like we're searching for Kilroy in the aftermath of WWII and you don't even realize what you're saying by continuing to roll it out. The logic that falls out from your repeated assertions is this:

* Larry Robinson was solely responsible for the great play of the defense in 2019 [even though he wasn't around the team for about 4 months when it was playing its most defensively sound hockey, but he was around the team when the defense was still abysmal]
* Without Robinson to coach the team, it was certain to fall apart [even though in 2019-20 it was the top team in the league, and at the time of the shutdown sat 2nd behind Boston
* Zero credit can be assigned to Van Ryn [or Ott, or Berube] for their work in coaching the team in 2019 or 2020 when Robinson wasn't around, even though Robinson himself stated - in an article you keep wanting to cite, no less - that "In the end, they're the guys who have to make the decisions," [Robinson said of Berube and his staff] and "[Berube]'s done a heck of a job. And you can't count out Steve Ott, Mike Van Ryn and David Alexander; they've done a terrific job too. It certainly was a group effort" which clearly shows Robinson thinks they're not mere bumps on a log
* By keeping the underachieving Berube-Ott-MVR triumvirate, who apparently couldn't win their way out of a paper bag without Robinson, GM Doug Armstrong is annually repeating a mistake despite clear evidence none of the three should be here, which makes one wonder
* How much credit really should go to Armstrong for that Cup win since it was Robinson's presence and steady guidance that was the linchpin to success [when he wasn't behind the bench], and
* If Armstrong tore down a Cup-winning roster and continues to keep on its 3 weakest spots, why should anyone believe he's going to be able to successfully rebuild the current roster into a Cup-contending team as long as he has the same 3 coaches around, which then begs the question
* Why are some of you so keen on keeping "In Army I Trust" with his ongoing record of mistakes and miscalculations that continue to set the team back, including his continued reliance on 3 inept coaches who somehow got this team to win a Cup in spite of not having a 9-time Cup champion in their room helping with the day-to-day game planning and decision-making?

But yes, if it helps your ego and gets you through the rest of the week, Larry Robinson was around the team for the playoffs - not behind the bench as an assistant coach, but up in the boxes as a special consultant to the GM - after being gone for ~4 months, after spending 15 freaking games behind the bench trying to get up to the speed of the game in the first few. Which, even if that's the hill you want to go die on today, is still a really far cry from "he was intimately involved in the day-to-day coaching" like you keep wanting to pretend was the case.

 

[joe galiba]

Larry Robinson could coach Tory Krug seven days a week, 24 hours a day and couldn't turn him into an NHL defenseman.

umm, isn't Krug an NHL defenseman?

 

[Louie the Blue]

umm, isn't Krug an NHL defenseman?

He is and a good one when he’s utilized correctly.