Is it time for a rebuild ?

[Mike Liut]

I'm good with that with the exception of Barbs. Think we need to keep him. If we can get a 2nd for Acciari that would be great! A third for Greiss is a bit of a stretch though.

I love Barbs too, but by the time we are ready to compete again, he might be over the hill lol

 

[Frenzy31]

Hopefully. But can you remember any sports team in recent memory who sold off 3 or 4 UFA’s being in playoff contention? I understand selling off one like he did with Stastny and then Shatty, but to sell off 3 or 4 would be unprecedented.

I hope he sells off ROR, Tarasenko, Barbs, Acciari and Mikkola. I’d also like to move one bigger contract too.

imagine going into the draft with this :

1st - top 10
late 1st - Tarasenko
late 1st - ROR
2nd - Barbs
2nd - Acciari
3rd - ours
3rd - Mikkola
3rd - Greiss

I don't know that we will sell off everyone. I could see him selling ROR or Tarasenko. Barbs or Acciari. Or he could sell everyone. I wouldn't take every pick in this coming draft, and would pick up some for 2024.

But we will see.

 

[Mike Liut]

I don't know that we will sell off everyone. I could see him selling ROR or Tarasenko. Barbs or Acciari. Or he could sell everyone. I wouldn't take every pick in this coming draft, and would pick up some for 2024.

But we will see.

id selling everything I could with the exception of Thomas and Kyrou. I’d even sell Binnington for the right price. Same with Parayko and Buch.

 

[TruBlu]

Whether you like Krug or not, he's a net positive over any defenseman currently in the organization. If Army had any ambivalence about what direction he was going to take at the TDL then this is certainly going to pointedly direct him towards a pretty significant retool. We know we aren't going to have any chance of doing anything in the postseason, even if by some chance we actually strung together enough games to get in (don't see it happening). I know some have mentioned that the team relies on getting into the post season to turn a profit. Some have even mentioned that DA would try to make a push for fear of losing his job. Failing to capitalize on a return for the outgoing free agents also probably means several more years of missing playoffs as well. That, to me, seems like a better way to lose a GM job than calling it in for a season in order to make drastic improvements. I can only imagine that DA now sees his only option to cut losses and get what you can in preparation for the draft. We know the core going forward. Proper use of our assets at the TDL puts us right back in it in a couple of years. That seems like the only logical direction I can see at this point.

 

[Majorityof1]

Whether you like Krug or not, he's a net positive over any defenseman currently in the organization.

Show your work. Aside from his name and how he has played in the past, he offers nothing that Parayko-Mikkola, Faulk-Leddy, Rosen-Bortuzzo doesn;t. Krug is our worst D this year, by an unfathomable margin. He gets 71% O0zone starts and is sheltered from the other team's best players. He has the best PDO on the team. So he should have favorable metrics. He's the 2nd worst GF% and the worst is his D partner. His xGF% is right in line with everyone else, within a percentage point of the worst despite ridiculously favorable usage. He is the worst HD Scoring chance percentage of our D, again, with ridiculously favorable usage.

You are going to argue he is an asset on the PP? True based on results. But Faulk's underlying numbers are better, he just hasn't had the results. Krug is worse than Faulk in Scoring chances per 60 and xGF/60 on the PP. He is better than Faulk in actual GF/60 but he plays with PP1 vs PP2. Not sure how much that plays into it. But overall, his PP does not come close to making up for his atrocious 5v5.

 

[DatDude44]

Whether you like Krug or not, he's a net positive over any defenseman currently in the organization. If Army had any ambivalence about what direction he was going to take at the TDL then this is certainly going to pointedly direct him towards a pretty significant retool. We know we aren't going to have any chance of doing anything in the postseason, even if by some chance we actually strung together enough games to get in (don't see it happening). I know some have mentioned that the team relies on getting into the post season to turn a profit. Some have even mentioned that DA would try to make a push for fear of losing his job. Failing to capitalize on a return for the outgoing free agents also probably means several more years of missing playoffs as well. That, to me, seems like a better way to lose a GM job than calling it in for a season in order to make drastic improvements. I can only imagine that DA now sees his only option to cut losses and get what you can in preparation for the draft. We know the core going forward. Proper use of our assets at the TDL puts us right back in it in a couple of years. That seems like the only logical direction I can see at this point.

Agreed, we're pretty clearly in a descension from our peak, it's time to retool and get back to a young team on the rise again.

Ideally i'd luv to see Ror to TOR for 1st+2nd+steeves? guessin it s a no go on knies, tarasenko maybe to DAL for Harley, Gurianov and a 2nd? Barbashev for a 2nd and mikkola for a 3rd.


We get some immediate help in gurianov, a potential high upside LHD in Thomas Harley, plethora of picks and plenty of cap space to work with in the offseason.

My goal then would be to acquire Chycrun(if it's a fair asking price.) maybe something where krug goes somewhere else he wants to go to given his NTC and we parlay assets to ARZ or a 3 team deal etc...

 

[PocketNines]

Krug is not a net positive over every other defenseman in the organization.

He's a small, slow, fading power play specialist who is completely caved in at 5 on 5, cannot clear his own zone, and his contract still has lots of term and lots of real dollars owed.

 

[TruBlu]

Show your work. Aside from his name and how he has played in the past, he offers nothing that Parayko-Mikkola, Faulk-Leddy, Rosen-Bortuzzo doesn;t. Krug is our worst D this year, by an unfathomable margin. He gets 71% O0zone starts and is sheltered from the other team's best players. He has the best PDO on the team. So he should have favorable metrics. He's the 2nd worst GF% and the worst is his D partner. His xGF% is right in line with everyone else, within a percentage point of the worst despite ridiculously favorable usage. He is the worst HD Scoring chance percentage of our D, again, with ridiculously favorable usage.

You are going to argue he is an asset on the PP? True based on results. But Faulk's underlying numbers are better, he just hasn't had the results. Krug is worse than Faulk in Scoring chances per 60 and xGF/60 on the PP. He is better than Faulk in actual GF/60 but he plays with PP1 vs PP2. Not sure how much that plays into it. But overall, his PP does not come close to making up for his atrocious 5v5.

My apologies. I left "left" out of my post. I'm not a big fan of Krug. I posted in the rebuild thread because that's where my head is at right now. My point is that you can't replace him with anyone not currently playing as a defenseman and not end up worse off. I'm also not a fan of advanced stats. When people don't like the basic stats they use advanced stats, and vice versa. The truth is numbers don't lie, but liars use numbers. The bottom line is the team is worse off with him out of the lineup when you consider what we have organizationally. My question to you is: is it time for a rebuild?

 

[Robb_K]

I'm good with that with the exception of Barbs. Think we need to keep him. If we can get a 2nd for Acciari that would be great! A third for Greiss is a bit of a stretch though.

A 2nd for Acciari is not going to happen.

 

[Majorityof1]

My apologies. I left "left" out of my post. I'm not a big fan of Krug. I posted in the rebuild thread because that's where my head is at right now. My point is that you can't replace him with anyone not currently playing as a defenseman and not end up worse off. I'm also not a fan of advanced stats. When people don't like the basic stats they use advanced stats, and vice versa. The truth is numbers don't lie, but liars use numbers. The bottom line is the team is worse off with him out of the lineup when you consider what we have organizationally. My question to you is: is it time for a rebuild?

I am in favor of a retool hopefully, not rebuild. Whether we can successfully retool depends on if we can retool our D, and that in turn depends on if we can move Krug and his contract. That is why I pushed back on the notion that krug is better than anyone we have. I'd rather have Rosen and an extra $5.5M in cap.

I think we can move Tarasenko and RoR for extra picks and a couple near ready prospects. So we take a hit for a year or two, but in the time we try to move Krug and find a top 4 D on the trade market. In a couple years we have Thomas and Kyrou, our current prospects, those near ready prospects and a re-tooled D.

Wishfull thinking, maybe, but I don't think we can ever go scorched earth rebuild with the long term contracts we have. We won't be bad enough, but we also won't be good enough with guys like Binnington, Leddy, Krug, Saad, Schenn, Parayko, Faulk, Thomas and Kyrou all signed for 3 more years minimum. The contracts we'd want to move for a rebuild are hard to move. So we can't tank, which makes a rebuild really tough.

 

[AjaxManifesto]

Trade 91, 90, and maybe 49.

You can even throw in 4...he's dead weight IMO

 

[Mike Liut]

I see us drafting in the top 10 for the next 3-4 years.

 

[Mike Liut]

We might have to lower our expectation for the Tarasenko return. Not even sure we’ll get a 1st. Probably only a 2nd.

 

[AjaxManifesto]

We might have to lower our expectation for the Tarasenko return. Not even sure we’ll get a 1st. Probably only a 2nd.

He's not playing smart...that's for sure

 

[ChicagoBlues]

We might have to lower our expectation for the Tarasenko return. Not even sure we’ll get a 1st. Probably only a 2nd.

naahhhhhh.....

His value won't change by the game.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Blues need to get rid of the old and bring in some new. No one over the age of 26.

 

[ChicagoBlues]

Blues need to get rid of the old and bring in some new. No one over the age of 26.

 

[Mike Liut]

naahhhhhh.....

His value won't change by the game.

I’m not really going by this game or this play, just his overall game and motivation and compete level. I hope I’m wrong.

I’m so ready to move on from him.

 

[ChicagoBlues]

I’m not really going by this game or this play, just his overall game and motivation and compete level. I hope I’m wrong.

I’m so ready to move on from him.

He's been Vlad the Bad this season, sooooo.....yeah, I get it. Still, he will garner a 1st.

I'm ready to move on and will not look back.

 

[TruBlu]

Tank has the ability. Someone wanting a right winger upgrade will happily trade a first and prospect to get him at the TDL hoping a change of scenery will improve his disposition. I just wouldn't be prepared to get back an a lister in addition to the first. ROR will also snag a first.

 

[Reality Czech]

I don’t think so. WE want to tank. THEY (Stillman, et all) have money invested in this and want to see a profit, which happens if we make the playoffs. Tanking doesn’t help the bottom line that keeps them in the STL.

And this is why i worry and why I don’t like Army but can’t hate him: we got a Cup. His moves after might have set us back years just like Dallas. It’s why I bring up Dallas as much as I do.

I don't want to tank, so don't include me in the "we" you speak of. Watching crappy, uninspired hockey in the hopes they will be good again in 3-5 years doesn't sound very appealing to me.

You talk about it from the owners' and fans' perspective, but what about the players? I'm pretty sure they always wanna win and don't give up hope like many fans do. Having a losing mentality is what poisoned the Oilers for so many years, regardless of how many high picks they had. That's why I think teams should only tank when they literally have no other choice, and we aren't close to that point yet. Trading a UFA you can't re-sign makes sense but that's a lot different than a full on tank.

 

[Ridge1982]

Tarasenko’s all but f***ed up his legacy here, so get what you can for him at the deadline

 

[TruBlu]

We don't need to tank the team. We have the beginning of another young core right now. Thomas, Kyrou, and Parayko alone are good enough to start building around. We need to start with defense, then goaltending, then forwards. Just a couple of middling defensemen would help drastically as long as they were the stay at home defender kind. We're running with too many puck moving defensemen right now. Goaltending needs to be addressed at some point. You know my feelings on Binnington, he's more of a headcase than Allen was, and we're paying a king's ransom for a guy with substandard numbers. We can keep him going forward, but it is going to require a dual goalie rotation and his contract is ultimately going to hurt us making moves in other areas of need. I'm not sure Greiss can fill a dual goalie role; although he's mostly looked better than Binny this year, his numbers will most likely drop with an equal share of the workload.

My hope is that we offload the guys with value who are most likely about to leave. I was a huge fan of Tank when we signed him. I don't blame him or the organization for him wanting to leave. he's young, currently on a team whose window is probably closed at this point, and he's getting ready to probably enter the last lengthy contract of his career. Someone will pay him crazy money, but it isn't going to happen here, and it shouldn't. ROR is another guy I hate to lose, but again, we aren't going to keep him for what he's going to want in compensation. This team can come back next season with a few first round prospects in the pantry, some decent prospects, and money to make moves in the offseason to address our issues. I don't want to have to sit through another early 2000's stretch of Blues hockey and that's where we are headed if we don't unload our expiring contracts by the TDL.

 

[Thallis]

I don't want to tank, so don't include me in the "we" you speak of. Watching crappy, uninspired hockey in the hopes they will be good again in 3-5 years doesn't sound very appealing to me.

You talk about it from the owners' and fans' perspective, but what about the players? I'm pretty sure they always wanna win and don't give up hope like many fans do. Having a losing mentality is what poisoned the Oilers for so many years, regardless of how many high picks they had. That's why I think teams should only tank when they literally have no other choice, and we aren't close to that point yet. Trading a UFA you can't re-sign makes sense but that's a lot different than a full on tank.

Players obviously don't want to tank, but the reality is that it doesn't matter. They're not good enough and are one of the top 5 oldest teams in the league. St. Louis isn't a prime free agent destination when we're not winning and we're low on cap space. Snuggerud is looking to be our only potential high impact prospect, and he's still years away. Short of more rabbit out of the hat trades like the Buchnevich trade, we don't have many options. There's a lack of adequate ability on this roster and next year is looking worse. Once your roster gets old and starts to take steps back it's hard to go in the positive direction unless you have real talent coming through the system.

 

[TruBlu]

Players obviously don't want to tank, but the reality is that it doesn't matter. They're not good enough and are one of the top 5 oldest teams in the league. St. Louis isn't a prime free agent destination when we're not winning and we're low on cap space. Snuggerud is looking to be our only potential high impact prospect, and he's still years away. Short of more rabbit out of the hat trades like the Buchnevich trade, we don't have many options. There's a lack of adequate ability on this roster and next year is looking worse. Once your roster gets old and starts to take steps back it's hard to go in the positive direction unless you have real talent coming through the system.

I agree with most of what you say, but we aren't looking at a full on tank. A burn it down rebuild would be a situation where we have no high level prospects, no high level youth currently playing; and a bunch of past their prime, once top tier talent, who are killing your ability to make moves because they are eating up cap. That's when you fire sale. Take a look at Chicago right now. Look how long they've been in the cellar and you can see what happens when you push your team to that point. Good GM's, like the one we have, make moves to keep the window open as long as possible. However, at some point, you reach a plateau where you simply can't do any more. We've given up prospect after prospect and pick after pick to keep that window open. We're at a split in the path where it's time to make a decision as to whether this team, as currently assembled, has a chance. I don't thing anyone, even homers, believes that. I think Tank and ROR are moved by the TDL.