Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[MacMacandBarbie]

Was he really though, or was he merely on a hot streak after opening the season cool, after just 5 points in his final 8 playoff games of 2010? Ovechkin had been the better player for the prior three seasons, so I don’t see how Crosby suddenly was on another level than his peers.

That’s like saying clearly Draisaitl and Kucherov were on another level than McDavid in 2019 and 2020. Everyone considered Crosby and OV neck and neck in their early days.

 

[GreatGonzo]

That's not what anyone is saying.

“If McD had been clutch in gm 7 (ie the time where he needed to be most clutch) we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.”

so again, basically something that Crosby couldn’t even do….lets hold it against McDavid that he didn’t do the same?

You should really proof read your posts before replying. Just an idea

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Implying that Crosby is just so “clutch” but you can’t name any more moments outside of the Olympics? Interesting….its almost like your just stating that as an argument..

@pi314 attempted to call Crosbys 4 assists in 6 games “clutch” while McDavids 11 in 7 games wasn’t. His reasoning was hilarious along with it. There was no “proof” there, only more of the same trash.

His reasoning was that the assists directly contributed to winning the game, by either tying it or putting the team out ahead. That’s how most people define ‘clutch’ and

Everything is ‘hilarious’ to you when it makes sense. Or when you’re wrong. I bet you laugh a lot.

“If McD had been clutch in gm 7 (ie the time where he needed to be most clutch) we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.”

so again, basically something that Crosby couldn’t even do….lets hold it against McDavid that he didn’t do the same?

You should really proof read your posts before replying. Just an idea

‘I don’t want to acknowledge that Crosby was clutch with his timely assists in 2016 against the sharks so I’m going to attack a different part of this guys post’ - GreatGonzo

 

[GreatGonzo]

His reasoning was that the assists directly contributed to winning the game, by either tying it or putting the team out ahead. That’s how most people define ‘clutch’ and

Everything is ‘hilarious’ to you when it makes sense. Or when you’re wrong. I bet you laugh a lot.

and McDavids points didn’t?

Remind me where Crosby was before game 6? I’ll tell ya…
5-0-2-2 (-2)
The pens had complete control of the series with Crosby doing little to nothing. If that’s the “clutch” moment he wants to die on, pretty weak if I do say so.

I can’t imagine how this place would erupt if McDavid had 4 assists in 6 games with ZERO goals in the finals. Every hater in this thread would pick him apart, there would be no talk of “clutchness” or “defense.” Just how he couldn’t get it done. But Crosby? There is always something he did right…something he always brought to the table that got his team the win.

 

[GreatGonzo]

His reasoning was that the assists directly contributed to winning the game, by either tying it or putting the team out ahead. That’s how most people define ‘clutch’ and

Everything is ‘hilarious’ to you when it makes sense. Or when you’re wrong. I bet you laugh a lot.


‘I don’t want to acknowledge that Crosby was clutch with his timely assists in 2016 against the sharks so I’m going to attack a different part of this guys post’ - GreatGonzo

“And I’m going to pretend like McDavids points in the finals we’re ALL worthless, while Crosbys had a defining clutchness to them.”

I’m not quoting you, I’m summarizing @pi314 terrible takes. He literally broke down McDavids pout totals in the finals like such…

“4 points
Contribution to winning: None. Points all came after team game was out of reach.”

And then there’s Crosby….

“3-2 win
1 assist
Contribution to winning: Set up tying goal”

Ya….theres no bias at all there

 

[bambamcam4ever]

lol, averaging 33 games a year, so basically missing on average 50 games each year.

One season was only 56 games lol. So no, not basically missing 50 games a year.

Was he really though, or was he merely on a hot streak after opening the season cool, after just 5 points in his final 8 playoff games of 2010? Ovechkin had been the better player for the prior three seasons, so I don’t see how Crosby suddenly was on another level than his peers.

Listen, I remember his play during the 25 game scoring streak where he piled up 26 goals and 50 points. He was magnificent. But it’s not something we haven’t seen similar from Ovechkin, Malkin, McDavid, etc. There’s little reason to think that was a new normal for him. Particularly since the streak was preceded by what it was and snapped with a pair of scoreless games before the game where he was concussed.

I just don’t understand the willingness to read so much into what is essentially less than a third of a season, while simultaneously ignoring (not you, but the crowd at large) what someone like McDavid has been doing for nearly 500 games now (788 points in his past 477 games for 1.65 PPG while missing just 19 games and rehabbing his knee while playing in 2019-2020 and clearly playing through injuries this current season).

One scoreless game before he was concussed.

And I don't think that 50 points in 25 games in that scoring environment with no empty net points is something all those guys have done.

 

[PainForShane]

“And I’m going to pretend like McDavids points in the finals we’re ALL worthless, while Crosbys had a defining clutchness to them.”

I’m not quoting you, I’m summarizing @pi314 terrible takes. He literally broke down McDavids pout totals in the finals like such…

He didn't say anything close to that, if anything he went out of his his way to show value of some of McD's points.

Re: game 5, @pi314 said: "Contribution to winning: Pretty much single-handedly won this game by himself."

Whatever you think you're doing, you are NOT summarizing pi's take.

Edit to make nicer. I realize I'm going after this guy pretty hard even though I think he completely deserves it after continuously misrepresenting arguments / arguing in bad faith

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

and McDavids points didn’t?

Never said that.

“And I’m going to pretend like McDavids points in the finals we’re ALL worthless, while Crosbys had a defining clutchness to them.”

Never indicated that either.

Sorry, not going to contribute to another strawman while you try to bend logic to convince people that setting up the game tying goal or go ahead goal isn’t ‘clutch’

 

[GreatGonzo]

He didn't say anything close to that, if anything he said the opposite. Re: game 5, he said:

"Contribution to winning: Pretty much single-handedly won this game by himself."

I'd ask you to refer to the post you're trying to clown on before you try to summarize it. Might help things in the future

“McDavid has 1 game where he basically single-handedly won by himself.

He had 4 points in an 8-1 game AFTER the game was already out of reach. His team would've won with or without him.

He had one 4 point game where he basically won by himself.

2 points in a loss where it was already too late.

1 point in another less where it didn't matter.

And on top of all that, scoring is up 15% league wide.”

Your right. He gave McDavid credit for ONE game and then found all these ways to criticize and devalue his point totals

Never said that.

Never indicated that either.

Sorry, not going to contribute to another strawman while you try to bend logic to convince people that setting up the game tying goal or go ahead goal isn’t ‘clutch’

Never said you did…maybe reread my post? Is reading hard for you or something?.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

“McDavid has 1 game where he basically single-handedly won by himself.

He had 4 points in an 8-1 game AFTER the game was already out of reach. His team would've won with or without him.

He had one 4 point game where he basically won by himself.

2 points in a loss where it was already too late.

1 point in another less where it didn't matter.

And on top of all that, scoring is up 15% league wide.”

Your right. He gave McDavid credit for ONE game and then found all these ways to criticize and devalue his point totals

No, what he did was a break down on the games Crosby was ‘clutch’ and McDavid was ‘clutch’ because you wanted to see a demonstration on how Crosby impacts winning.

Never said you did…maybe reread my post? Is reading hard for you or something?.

Hey Pot, how’s it going?

 

[PainForShane]

Gonzo asking someone else if "reading is hard" lmao

 

[GreatGonzo]

No, what he did was a break down on the games Crosby was ‘clutch’ and McDavid was ‘clutch’ because you wanted to see a demonstration on how Crosby impacts winning.

Hey Pot, how’s it going?

Every game but one, he has some line or reasoning as to why McDavid wasn’t any value or impactful. But yes, one game tying assist In a 3-2 game… CLUTCH….4 points in a 8-1 win in an elimination game?….”meaningless.”

Crosby always seems to have a positive impact on his team…even when he isn’t doing anything, but McDavid always seems to have a negative or meaningless impact on his team, because it’s not “all about points.” It’s about “winning.”

Hey Pot? Is that an attempt to humor? Maybe go back to the drawing board on that one. I heard crickets and the sun is no where near gone.

Gonzo asking someone else if "reading is hard" lmao

Reading may not be your tough spot, but finding articulate and meaningful things to say? Definitely not your thing

 

[Frank Drebin]

You want the point?

You can't handle the point.

The basic premise of the whole thread is McDavid is above Sid.

And the argument is "hurr durr moar points".

When the whole league, not just players named Sid or Connor, went up in scoring. The exact moment they shrunk goalie equipment.

If you removed the 15% scoring increase, Connor just had the same 36 points Malkin had.

And the thing that matters, their overall contribution to winning...

...is clearly Sid. Clearly.

Does McDavid have a change to get there? Sure.

He's already a top 10 all-time great.

But he definitely ain't yet.

Certainly not Mario level. A healthy Mario never would have lost a scoring title to 2 other players.

I'll spell it out for the people in the back.

Even the hurr durr 11 points greatest run ever.

Let's break it down.

Connor

Game 1.

3-0 loss.
0 points.
Contribution to winning: Zero

Game 2.

4-1 loss.
1 assist.
Contribution to winning: Minimal, got an assist on an opening goal

Game 3:

4-3 loss
2 assists
Contribution to winning: Minimal, contributed after the game was already out of reach

Game 4:

8-1 win
4 points
Contribution to winning: None. Points all came after team game was out of reach.

Game 5:

5-3 win
4 points
Contribution to winning: Pretty much single-handedly won this game by himself.

Game 6:

5-1 win
0 points
Contribution to winning: None

Game 7:

2-1 loss
0 points
Contribution to winning: None

That's one dominant win and a lot of compiling.

You know... winning. The reason they play the games.

Sid 2016 vs the SJ Sharks

Game 1:

3-2 win
1 assist
Contribution to winning: Set up tying goal

Game 2:

2-1 OT win
1 assist
Contribution to winning: Set up OT winning goal

Game 3:

3-1 loss
0 points
Contribution to winning: None

Game 4:

3-1 win
0 points
Contribution to winning: None

Game 5:

4-2 loss
0 points
Contribution to winning: None

Game 6:

3-1 Stanley Cup win
2 points
Contribution to winning: Set up Stanley Cup winning goal and blocked shot setting up empty netter to seal a cup victory

That's the Conn Smythe that he "didn't deserve".

And he still had 3 games that the team very likely doesn't win without him.

The point?

A lot of you are hoodwinked by points as your god because the whole league went up in scoring.

And that's just easy to look up offensive points.

Find me a more diverse highlight reel than Sid's.

Dancing through entire teams.
Scoring while falling.
The best backhand in hockey history
Edge work.
Pure power protecting the puck.
Use of his skates,
Hand eye batting pucks in and consistently incredible redirects.
No look passes.
Hockey IQ.
Undressing players and goalies.
Shooting it off goalie's masks.
Stealing pucks.
Winning battles on the boards.
Diving goal line saves.
Poke checks and picking pockets.
Using the boards and the back of the net.
The Michigan goal.
Winning key face offs.
Blocking key shots.

I could go on forever. I have been spoiled to watch his entire career.

He's either the luckiest player in history who just keeps landing on winning teams since he's 12.

Or just maybe... just maybe... those teams keep winning because having Sid is a big advantage.

Can Connor get there?

Sure.

But in terms of actual real world winning... he's NOT yet.

And he still has a ways to go.

Says points arent everything

Says a zero point game contributes nothing to winning or losing. Says a 4 point game in a blowout contributes nothing to winning. Its too much.

Anyways, you've explained your reasoning enough.

intangibles, born winner, clutch ability, relevant points, elevating teammates and michigan goals.

I cant take much more

Agree to disagree

 

[Three On Zero]

McDavid fans be like…..

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Every game but one, he has some line or reasoning as to why McDavid wasn’t any value or impactful. But yes, one game tying assist In a 3-2 game… CLUTCH….4 points in a 8-1 win in an elimination game?….”meaningless.”

A tying assist is ’clutch’.

Are you trying to argue that scoring in a blowout game is ‘clutch’ ? Like what is the argument here? He didn’t devalue the points, I’m pretty sure he still counted them.

Crosby always seems to have a positive impact on his team…even when he isn’t doing anything, but McDavid always seems to have a negative or meaningless impact on his team, because it’s not “all about points.” It’s about “winning.”

Really? I saw multiple games where Crosby didn’t contribute much and the poster admitted such.

Hey Pot? Is that an attempt to humor? Maybe go back to the drawing board on that one. I heard crickets and the sun is no where near gone.

 

[GreatGonzo]

A tying assist is ’clutch’.

Are you trying to argue that scoring in a blowout game is ‘clutch’ ? Like what is the argument here? He didn’t devalue the points, I’m pretty sure he still counted them.

Really? I saw multiple games where Crosby didn’t contribute much and the poster admitted such.

View attachment 895974

So basically there’s obviously not talking with you Since you lack any sort of reasoning and logic. You are following the same silly way or thinking where it’s Crosby does no wrong, all while McDavid can’t get it right.

He called those points “meaningless.” Are you refusing to acknowledge that or you just didn’t want to read that part? Pretty sure that’s “devaluing” buddy…

He also called McDavids point totals “compiling.” I’m sure you know the meaning of that word? Or should I spell that out for you?….is that not “devaluing” either?

He also mentioned how it’s easy to look at point totals and score points…but Crosby? He does all this…

Dancing through entire teams.
Scoring while falling.
The best backhand in hockey history
Edge work.
Pure power protecting the puck.
Use of his skates,
Hand eye batting pucks in and consistently incredible redirects.
No look passes.
Hockey IQ.
Undressing players and goalies.
Shooting it off goalie's masks.
Stealing pucks.
Winning battles on the boards.
Diving goal line saves.
Poke checks and picking pockets.
Using the boards and the back of the net.
The Michigan goal.
Winning key face offs.
Blocking key shots.

But no, not bias AT ALL. McDavid? Just a simple offensive first player who scores lots of points but doesn’t win. Crosby? He does it all…the game is more than scoring points and all Crosby does is win…so Crosby>McDavid.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

now do toews vs crosby

Yes, Toews was clutch. He scored two goals in the finals minutes against anaheim in 15'.

So was Justin Williams, P. Kane, Franzen, Point, Crosby, and McDavid.

Being 'clutch' in the biggest moments gets you paid. Having that reputation, whether you are a 3rd liner or a generational player, is a good reputation to have. Crosby has came up clutch in the biggest moments a lot. More than other players, like Ovechkin for example. It is a factor in their greatness. This really shouldn't be such a controversial topic, and people acting like it isn't quantifiable just don't want to have a nuanced conversation.

So basically there’s obviously not talking with you Since you lack any sort of reasoning and logic. You are following the same silly way or thinking where it’s Crosby does no wrong, all while McDavid can’t get it right.

Seems you can't get your ahead around the meaning 'clutch' so no wonder you have no idea what people are talking about when people say Crosby contributes to winning.

He called those points “meaningless.” Are you refusing to acknowledge that or you just didn’t want to read that part? Pretty sure that’s “devaluing” buddy…

Yeah, meaningless in this conversation around being 'clutch'

Do you know where you are?

He also called McDavids point totals “compiling.” I’m sure you know the meaning of that word? Or should I spell that out for you?….is that not “devaluing” either?

Please focus. I see you are already setting up a goal post move, don't even think about it.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Yes, Toews was clutch. He scored two goals in the finals minutes against anaheim in 15'.

So was Justin Williams, P. Kane, Franzen, Point, Crosby, and McDavid.

Being 'clutch' in the biggest moments gets you paid. Having that reputation, whether you are a 3rd liner or a generational player, is a good reputation to have. Crosby has came up clutch in the biggest moments a lot. More than other players, like Ovechkin for example. It is a factor in their greatness. This really shouldn't be such a controversial topic, and people acting like it isn't quantifiable just don't want to have a nuanced conversation.


Seems you can't get your ahead around the meaning 'clutch' so no wonder you have no idea what people are talking about when people say Crosby contributes to winning.

Yeah, meaningless in this conversation around being 'clutch'

Do you know where you are?

Please focus. I see you are already setting up a goal post move, don't even think about it.

Feel free to post more of these clutch moments since there appears to be plenty to go around…

Are you being serious? First you say he didn’t devalue his totals….now you’re saying he didn’t mean “meaningless” in that way?? Wow…

That’s ironic. I say something that destroys your entire way of thinking on the matter and you throw out a desperate attempt to say I’ll be “moving the goal posts” soon? Just say your wrong and be don’t with it.

Meaningless and compiler= devaluing….

Read that 5 times for me and maybe we can get somewhere here…

 

[Golden_Jet]

One season was only 56 games lol. So no, not basically missing 50 games a year.

Good point,
An average of, a half season over the 3 years.
Assuming he would’ve played all 28 games, if 82 game season.

 

[GreatGonzo]

McDavid fans be like…..

As opposed to…

11 points in 7 games? Ok but most of those points he was compiling and held no meaning. He also went pointless in games 6 and 7…the most important games. He didn’t show up when it mattered and that’s why his team didn’t win. He just doesn’t have that “winner” mentality like Crosby….who still wins while having 3 points in 7 games while ALSO going pointless in games 6 and 7….actually barely played in game 7….but he still won so he’s the REAL winner and McDavid is a loser.

Or….

8-1 win with 4 points? MEANINGLESS. He just “compiled” points when the game was already out of hand. Crosby though? He had 3 assists in a 6-0 game 5 win….WHAT A LEADER HE IS! Those 3 assists were so impactful and meaningful….much like his zero points were in game 6. Oh…well no he didn’t score, but hockey is MORE than scoring, but when Crosby scores…it’s about points again, but when McDavid does….it goes back to its not all about scoring…

 

[Frank Drebin]

When you have to start dissecting game by game and point by point you've lost.

Imagine trying to have a conversation with someone who spent their life around the game that scoring 4 points in a blowout 8-1 elimination win contributed nothing towards that teams win. Nothing, zero. All irrelevant points.

They probably would be polite enough to not laugh in your face but your opinion would be quickly dismissed as naive or biased.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Feel free to post more of these clutch moments since there appears to be plenty to go around…

Crosby Scores game winning goal against Detroit in game 4 2009 Stanley Cup Finals

Crosby answers Ovechkin's hat trick with one of his own in Game 2 in 2009

Crosby finishes the Capitals off in game 4 with a game winning goal in 2009


This is just 2009.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Crosby Scores game winning goal against Detroit in game 4 2009 Stanley Cup Finals

Crosby answers Ovechkin's hat trick with one of his own in Game 2 in 2009

Crosby finishes the Capitals off in game 4 with a game winning goal in 2009


This is just 2009.

GWG in a 4-2 win? Eh….i guess. I don’t see how that’s the most clutch.

Didn’t they lose game 2? Is that still “clutch” if you lose?

Game 7 against the Caps is and always will be Crosbys best game 7.

these are 3 examples, and I was told Crosby has “more than anyone.” So….

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

GWG in a 4-2 win? Eh….i guess. I don’t see how that’s the most clutch.

Yeah, he also set up the play to make it 4-2 as well. I don't think you know what clutch means.

Game 7 against the Caps is and always will be Crosbys best game 7.

Whoa. I don't think that is a compliment, but I think that is the best we will get from you.

these are 3 examples, and I was told Crosby has “more than anyone.” So….

Yeah, nobody said that. Can't do the strawman arguments anymore, I told you that.

 

[GreatGonzo]

When you have to start dissecting game by game and point by point you've lost.

Imagine trying to have a conversation with someone who spent their life around the game that scoring 4 points in a blowout 8-1 elimination win contributed nothing towards that teams win. Nothing, zero. All irrelevant points.

They probably would be polite enough to not laugh in your face but your opinion would be quickly dismissed as naive or biased.

What’s more hilarious is the amount of times I’ve seen games 4 and 5 be dismissed as “meaningless GAMES.” They were facing elimination both times and McDavid led the way with 8 points within those two games. But the problem is, for the first time in the series(quite literally) they had a huge leap in secondary scoring, especially in game 4. And that’s being used AGAINST him…

Game 6, same thing happened. They finally got more scoring out of their bottom guys. Drai even had an assist. McDavid didn’t score anything but he played well regardless, even defensively. Then game 7, their whole TEAM went silent. I Mean if it was a 5-6 loss with McDavid having no points and playing mediocre, I get it. But this was a 1-2 loss, and McDavid was getting his chances and generating offense, but it just didn’t happen.

You can tell who actually watched the games and who looked at the stat sheet afterwards. Ironically the same people that only see the stat sheets are probably the same people that argue about how “it’s not all about points.”