Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[x Tame Impala]

Gee I wonder why it's a lot of Sens and Habs fans commenting. Maybe it's because they're the ones that watched Karlsson the most? Why would Habs fans be biased towards Karlsson anyway? He played for one of their biggest rivals, if anything they'd be biased against him. The fact that there are so many Habs fans are singing Karlsson's praises actually says quite a bit about how good of a player he was in his prime.

What would you need to see Makar accomplish to be better than prime EK in your eyes?

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

What would you need to see Makar accomplish to be better than prime EK in your eyes?

Well winning a Norris is a good start for a conversation to get started.

After that it'd be based on my viewing experience. Clearly both players are in the upper echelon of HHOF level defensemen, so the difference will come down to how they impact the game on the ice. In my eyes, I haven't seen Makar impact a game like Karlsson did, not yet. And you can say that this is because Makar plays on a great team and they don't have to run their entire offense through one guy, but that doesn't change the fact that Karlsson did it, and Makar hasn't yet. And that's what the all time great defensemen did, guys like Orr and Bourque ran their offense despite playing on great teams because they were so effective that you'd be stupid not to.

The thing that gets me is that people are saying "oh well Karlsson had the entire offense run through him and played more minutes, of course he got a higher scoring finish" like those two things are easy to do. There's a reason why so few defensemen in the history of the game have played in that situation, and that's because it is extremely hard to do that. So you can't really say "well Makar could do that too!" because playing 28 minutes a night while carrying your team's offense is something that has been done by maybe a handful of players in NHL history, so it's not really something you can just assume a player can do until they actually prove they can do it.

Crosby said it better than any one else:



Karlsson was the Ottawa Senators team. Every team's strategy was to try and make Karlsson less effective, because there weren't any other major threats on the team that could drive the play like he could. Even when he played on teams with more threats, the main focus was still to shut him down. Pietrangelo talked about it during the 2014 Olympics, the plan going into the Gold Medal game against Sweden was literally "keep Karlsson in his own end, make sure he doesn't have the puck."

THN in Sochi: Canada's mission? Shut down Erik Karlsson

Makar has a great offensively toolkit. I think he's got a better shot than Karlsson, and I think he had better lateral quickness and agility than Karlsson. I think his shot option and being able to transition from moving laterally along the blue line to quickly driving the net actually makes the superior player on the power play (Karlsson was never that great on the PP in all honesty. Better than most dmen in the league, but not as good as you'd expect. I think it's worth noting that Karlsson scored 56 EV points in 2016, whereas Makar had had 52 this year). I think Karlsson had better vision and creativity, and was more dangerous from the blueline because of how he liked to draw players out of position with his hands in tight spaces, but in terms of their play in the offensive zone, Makar might not be that far off from Karlsson. The difference as of now simply comes to how they skate with the puck. Karlsson liked to hold onto the puck a lot more than Makar, and he had the fantastic ability to slow down or speed up the pace of the game single handily. That trait is so unbelievably rare, at least to the level that Karlsson was able to do it. While Makar is a good skater, I haven't seen him control the pace of the game like Karlsson did.

So the argument that Makar doesn't do as much as Karlsson simply because he doesn't have to may be true, it doesn't really change the fact that he doesn't do as much as Karlsson. I could probably count on one hand the amount of players I've seen that controlled the game like Karlsson. They're those rare "one-man army" players that could take on an entire team if they need to. Until Makar shows that he can carry a team like that, then I don't really see what exactly makes him better than Karlsson.

 

[Beau Knows]

Probably not quite yet, he's certainly on track to have a better career though.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

"Freaking Josi"...as if he isn't very likely to win a 2nd Norris and join the contemporary ranks of Duncan Kieth and Erik Karlsson himself. You say that like he fluked his way into nearly 100 points. I'm assuming you have watched maybe a game or two of the Preds this year at best. Josi had an excellent year offensively and your slight against him is disingenuous.

Relax.

I say it because he’s 32 and others were saying that Karlsson’s contemporaries were weak.

Doesn’t seem to be the case now does it?

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

What would you need to see Makar accomplish to be better than prime EK in your eyes?

Multiple Norris trophies
Multiple AS-1 nods
Lead his team in scoring
Top 5 in league scoring
Hart candidate

Let's at least have him match Karlsson's accomplishments

 

[gary69]

Well winning a Norris is a good start for a conversation to get started.

After that it'd be based on my viewing experience. Clearly both players are in the upper echelon of HHOF level defensemen, so the difference will come down to how they impact the game on the ice. In my eyes, I haven't seen Makar impact a game like Karlsson did, not yet. And you can say that this is because Makar plays on a great team and they don't have to run their entire offense through one guy, but that doesn't change the fact that Karlsson did it, and Makar hasn't yet. And that's what the all time great defensemen did, guys like Orr and Bourque ran their offense despite playing on great teams because they were so effective that you'd be stupid not to.

The thing that gets me is that people are saying "oh well Karlsson had the entire offense run through him and played more minutes, of course he got a higher scoring finish" like those two things are easy to do. There's a reason why so few defensemen in the history of the game have played in that situation, and that's because it is extremely hard to do that. So you can't really say "well Makar could do that too!" because playing 28 minutes a night while carrying your team's offense is something that has been done by maybe a handful of players in NHL history, so it's not really something you can just assume a player can do until they actually prove they can do it.

Crosby said it better than any one else:



Karlsson was the Ottawa Senators team. Every team's strategy was to try and make Karlsson less effective, because there weren't any other major threats on the team that could drive the play like he could. Even when he played on teams with more threats, the main focus was still to shut him down. Pietrangelo talked about it during the 2014 Olympics, the plan going into the Gold Medal game against Sweden was literally "keep Karlsson in his own end, make sure he doesn't have the puck."

THN in Sochi: Canada's mission? Shut down Erik Karlsson

Makar has a great offensively toolkit. I think he's got a better shot than Karlsson, and I think he had better lateral quickness and agility than Karlsson. I think his shot option and being able to transition from moving laterally along the blue line to quickly driving the net actually makes the superior player on the power play (Karlsson was never that great on the PP in all honesty. Better than most dmen in the league, but not as good as you'd expect. I think it's worth noting that Karlsson scored 56 EV points in 2016, whereas Makar had had 52 this year). I think Karlsson had better vision and creativity, and was more dangerous from the blueline because of how he liked to draw players out of position with his hands in tight spaces, but in terms of their play in the offensive zone, Makar might not be that far off from Karlsson. The difference as of now simply comes to how they skate with the puck. Karlsson liked to hold onto the puck a lot more than Makar, and he had the fantastic ability to slow down or speed up the pace of the game single handily. That trait is so unbelievably rare, at least to the level that Karlsson was able to do it. While Makar is a good skater, I haven't seen him control the pace of the game like Karlsson did.

So the argument that Makar doesn't do as much as Karlsson simply because he doesn't have to may be true, it doesn't really change the fact that he doesn't do as much as Karlsson. I could probably count on one hand the amount of players I've seen that controlled the game like Karlsson. They're those rare "one-man army" players that could take on an entire team if they need to. Until Makar shows that he can carry a team like that, then I don't really see what exactly makes him better than Karlsson.

The argument is true, at least with the current Colorado team. Because if Makar did that, it would be detrimental to Avs and waste some of the talent MacKinnon, Rantanen, Kadri etc. And it would make Avs a worse team and himder their play and chance of winning. It's a team game after all and the aim is to win as a collective team, not to pump up one player's individual stats and role.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Multiple Norris trophies
Multiple AS-1 nods
Lead his team in scoring
Top 5 in league scoring
Hart candidate

Let's at least have him match Karlsson's accomplishments

Him leading his team in scoring as a defenseman in the playoffs and winning a Smythe wouldn’t cross out some of those things? They’re not somewhat equivalent?

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

The argument is true, at least with the current Colorado team. Because if Makar did that, it would be detrimental to Avs and waste some of the talent MacKinnon, Rantanen, Kadri etc. And it would make Avs a worse team and himder their play and chance of winning. It's a team game after all and the aim is to win as a collective team, not to pump up one player's individual stats and role.

If it would hinder the team to have Makar carry the load like Karlsson, then he's not as good as Karlsson.

But isn't that such a convenient argument. "Makar could carry a team like Karlsson and would score even more points, he just doesn't because it's better if he doesn't". Very, very convenient.

 

[wetcoast]

The separation of Karlsson's foot?

The separation of Makar's peak and length and broadness both in the regular season and playoffs is becoming quite clear here.

 

[wetcoast]

Maybe Makar played less minutes because he's not capable of playing the same minutes as Karlsson.

You need to pick an argument, EK played that much because he played on a worse team or Maakr plays on a better team that maybe limits the need for him to play as much but you are trying to have it both ways here.

If you watch Makar there is zero reason to think that he couldn't play more MPG and it's a very weak argument to even try and go down that road.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

You need to pick an argument, EK played that much because he played on a worse team or Maakr plays on a better team that maybe limits the need for him to play as much but you are trying to have it both ways here.

If you watch Makar there is zero reason to think that he couldn't play more MPG and it's a very weak argument to even try and go down that road.

It doesn't matter if he could or not. He doesn't.

And lmao "zero reason". Yeah, because playing 28-29 minutes a game while carrying the offense and having the other team putting all their defensive focus on you is so easy, anybody could do it.

 

[wetcoast]

And again… Kadri would also beat the crap out of Mike Hoffman. The Avs are much, much better than Ottawa was.

Do you still not understand this?

You are obviously confusing this season Kadri with the Kadri the rest of his career, Hoffman is an equal to Kadri for the most part offensively in their peaks and primes, this freak season aside.

Also maybe this freak season has a Makar influence to it?

 

[wetcoast]

This (bolded) is false. I don't have access to hockey-reference's stathead tool anymore but if we adjust for league scoring Makar's this season point total stays more or less the same while Karlsson's 15-16 season point total jumps to around 100.

Taking league scoring into account Makar does not have any argument over Karlsson. Yet.

EK has 92 points in 82 games for the 15-16 seasons adjusted according to hockey reference, Makar has 83 in his 77 games this year.

Statistically over a full season the difference is pretty much zilch.

It doesn't matter if he could or not. He doesn't.

And lmao "zero reason". Yeah, because playing 28-29 minutes a game while carrying the offense and having the other team putting all their defensive focus on you is so easy, anybody could do it.

Sure the other team is concerned more on defending against JJ and EJ you need to give up this argument as it's extremely weak. and pretty much hurts your argument.

For years, you and other Sens fans spouted off how great EK would be once he went to a great team instead of being surrounded by "AHLers", yet he has been outplayed by an older Brent Burns during his run with the Sharks.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

EK has 92 points in 82 games for the 15-16 seasons adjusted according to hockey reference, Makar has 83 in his 77 games this year.

Statistically over a full season the difference is pretty much zilch.



Sure the other team is concerned more on defending against JJ and EJ you need to give up this argument as it's extremely weak. and pretty much hurts your argument.

For years, you and other Sens fans spouted off how great EK would be once he went to a great team instead of being surrounded by "AHLers", yet he has been outplayed by an older Brent Burns during his run with the Sharks.

Oh yeah, because that's all Makar has to play with, Jack and Erik Johnson. He doesn't play with MacKinnon, Rantanen, Kadri, and Toews, nope. Not surprised that someone who thinks that playing 29 minutes a night somehow makes it easier on a player also happens to intentionally omit the context surrounding these players.

And keep spewing that same lame point about Karlsson on the Sharks again and again. It would only be maybe the 100th time you've repeated it on this forum. Literally nobody thinks that's a good point.

 

[wetcoast]

Oh yeah, because that's all Makar has to play with, Jack and Erik Johnson. He doesn't play with MacKinnon, Rantanen, Kadri, and Toews, nope. Not surprised that someone who thinks that playing 29 minutes a night somehow makes it easier on a player also happens to intentionally omit the context surrounding these players.

This was my sarcastic remark to your point that perhaps Makar couldn't paly the same number of MPG as EK did on the Sens which is just flat out a ridiculous statement.

And keep spewing that same lame point about Karlsson on the Sharks again and again. It would only be maybe the 100th time you've repeated it on this forum. Literally nobody thinks that's a good point.

Once again it's a response to the claim made by you and other Sens fans but nice try at deflection here.

It's pretty obvious the hill you (and other Sen fans) are going to die on is going to be 2 fold here.

1) Makar played on a better team so there is no way Makar can be better because his team is better and

2) EK hurt his Achilles (and then some claim that can't be proven that somehow he might have been better than he ever was......which is kind of ironic given the original post this series of posts was responding too or to quote you,

It doesn't matter if he could or not. He doesn't.

This is inherently the problem with weak or faulty arguments they can be trotted out when convenient then ignored when they aren't..

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

This was my sarcastic remark to your point that perhaps Makar couldn't paly the same number of MPG as EK did on the Sens which is just flat out a ridiculous statement.

Evidently it isn't a ridiculous statement, because he doesn't play the same minutes Karlsson does. If Makar is that good, why wouldn't you want him on the ice as much as possible? Coaches tend to play their best players as much as they can get away with. And I'll say again, it doesn't matter if he can or cannot. He doesn't.

Once again it's a response to the claim made by you and other Sens fans but nice try at deflection here.

It's pretty obvious the hill you (and other Sen fans) are going to die on is going to be 2 fold here.

1) Makar played on a better team so there is no way Makar can be better because his team is better and

Lmao, deflecting, you've done nothing but deflecting in this thread. I've deflected absolutely nothing, because you've raised 0 good points. All you do is strawman and twist people's words. Like this quote. Nobody is saying Makar can't be better because he's on a better team. Literally not one person has said that. Orr played on much better teams than Karlsson, he still drove the offense and controlled the pace of the play on great Bruins teams, and obviously at a much higher level than Karlsson too. Bourque played on better teams than Karlsson, he still drove the play and carried the load.

2) EK hurt his Achilles (and then some claim that can't be proven that somehow he might have been better than he ever was......which is kind of ironic given the original post this series of posts was responding too or to quote you,

I have no idea what you're even talking about now. His achilles injury happened in 2013. Are you talking about why Karlsson has been unimpressive in San Jose? It's not an achilles injury, it's his ankle bone. He also got a major groin injury his first season in San Jose which has been nagging him ever since. Like what point are you even trying to make here? That it's bs that people excuse Karlsson's play in San Jose because of his injuries? You know he played a full season in Ottawa after his ankle surgery where it was clear he wasn't nearly as effective as he used to be?

 

[TheBeard]

For years, you and other Sens fans spouted off how great EK would be once he went to a great team instead of being surrounded by "AHLers", yet he has been outplayed by an older Brent Burns during his run with the Sharks.

Yeah. That’s not true at all. You clearly don’t watch much sharks hockey.

 

[Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk]

People seriously underrate Karlsson's defensive abilities when he was in his prime due to recency bias. His defensive game was more cerebral than someone clearing a net, but he was definitely elite in defending zone entries and routinely was in the top 3 in takeaways. He had the most total over the 6 season stretch from 11-12 through 16-17 while missing nearly a full season in 12-13. You could chalk that up to him eating 30 minutes a night, but he still had the second most per 60 minutes over that span for players with over 200 games played.

This is true, but there also games where Karlsson was incredibly laissez-faire in how own end (<3) and just stood around with his stick in his hands giving direction advice while the other D scrambled around to help.
It's like Paulrus used to say, he wanted Karlsson to play more for his team than the other team.

Even that small quibble aside, Karlsson was producing at a rate not seen since Bobby Orr.
Makar is producing at playoff rates close to unheard of. And he helped shut down a player producing at close to Gretzky levels in the post-season. Makar won't place high in league scoring because he's an on excellent team. That's neither player's fault, it's simply our roster was a garbage fire while the Avs knew how to build a team.

Karlsson > Makar, but Makar ?> Karlsson over career, I'd think, if the Avs can keep a consistent roster around him.

 

[wetcoast]

Evidently it isn't a ridiculous statement, because he doesn't play the same minutes Karlsson does. If Makar is that good, why wouldn't you want him on the ice as much as possible? Coaches tend to play their best players as much as they can get away with. And I'll say again, it doesn't matter if he can or cannot. He doesn't.



Lmao, deflecting, you've done nothing but deflecting in this thread. I've deflected absolutely nothing, because you've raised 0 good points. All you do is strawman and twist people's words. Like this quote. Nobody is saying Makar can't be better because he's on a better team. Literally not one person has said that. Orr played on much better teams than Karlsson, he still drove the offense and controlled the pace of the play on great Bruins teams, and obviously at a much higher level than Karlsson too. Bourque played on better teams than Karlsson, he still drove the play and carried the load.



I have no idea what you're even talking about now. His achilles injury happened in 2013. Are you talking about why Karlsson has been unimpressive in San Jose? It's not an achilles injury, it's his ankle bone. He also got a major groin injury his first season in San Jose which has been nagging him ever since. Like what point are you even trying to make here? That it's bs that people excuse Karlsson's play in San Jose because of his injuries? You know he played a full season in Ottawa after his ankle surgery where it was clear he wasn't nearly as effective as he used to be?

Thank you for making my point here, obviously lots of people are making the argument that EK did it on worse teams and Makar did it on better teams so we have to take EK as in your original point he did it in more offensive opportunities, ie TOI.

It seems that your arguments at times are as selective as to your reading other posts in this thread, tons of people are making the "team mates argument here as if it really means anything overall.

 

[wetcoast]

Yeah. That’s not true at all. You clearly don’t watch much sharks hockey.

You are right, I don't watch every sharks game, just like most people in this thread but burns has played more MPG in each of the 4 seasons he and EK have played in San Jose and if one were to believe the other poster it's probably because EK can't play that many MPG any more right?

Burns has out produced EK over the same time period with a 0.73 PPG to EK's0 .67 .

That's what pretzel logic gets people in the end.

The argument some Sens fans were making that EK would show off as being even greater on a better team and it didn't happen.

Sure injuries played a part in that but that was my point people were already saying that EK would have been even greater if not for his 2013 injury, with exaggerated claims to how diminished he was after that.

 

[psycat]

Multiple Norris trophies
Multiple AS-1 nods
Lead his team in scoring
Top 5 in league scoring
Hart candidate

Let's at least have him match Karlsson's accomplishments

Add some best on best international hockey and swag hair.

Him leading his team in scoring as a defenseman in the playoffs and winning a Smythe wouldn’t cross out some of those things? They’re not somewhat equivalent?

No but it would certainly give Makar an edge over Karlsson playoff-wise but there are tons of inferior players who won Conn Smythe, Zetterberg is not better than McDavid for example.

Kinda likely Makar pass Karlsson for career, he might never pass him for peak, at this point but let's see it play out before crowning him the best offensive dman since the lockout. He could have a career ending, or like in the case of Karlsson altering, injury next week for all we know.

The answer to the topic is no and frankly the question is quite dumb, it's not like Makar have 4 Norris and a Hart or something like that.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

EK has 92 points in 82 games for the 15-16 seasons adjusted according to hockey reference, Makar has 83 in his 77 games this year.

Statistically over a full season the difference is pretty much zilch.

Sorry but no. Makar isn’t even the best scoring blueliner this year much less top ten in scoring. Get back to us when he does this.

As for teammates impacting your scoring, sorry but I don’t buy it. Folks here saying he “only” scored 30 something points with Mackinnon… how many did Karlsson score with his number one? How much help did Makar have from his teammates? A lot more than Karlsson. Even if say Mackinnon isn’t getting a point to go with Makar on a goal, he’s still helping to keep posesseion, he’s still a threat opposing teams have to concern themselves with. Do you think they cared about Hoffman or whatever other scrubs were on the ice with EK? Of course not.

And most importantly, you’re going nowhere on a crappy team in the playoffs. EK had zero chance to do anything there. Dragging his team into the final four was a huge accomplishment. That team was absolute trash.

The question isn’t whether Makar will pass him, it’s if he’s passed him already. And the answer to that is a resounding ‘no.’

 

[wetcoast]

Sorry but no. Makar isn’t even the best scoring blueliner this year much less top ten in scoring. Get back to us when he does this.

As for teammates impacting your scoring, sorry but I don’t buy it. Folks here saying he “only” scored 30 something points with Mackinnon… how many did Karlsson score with his number one? How much help did Makar have from his teammates? A lot more than Karlsson. Even if say Mackinnon isn’t getting a point to go with Makar on a goal, he’s still helping to keep posesseion, he’s still a threat opposing teams have to concern themselves with. Do you think they cared about Hoffman or whatever other scrubs were on the ice with EK? Of course not.

And most importantly, you’re going nowhere on a crappy team in the playoffs. EK had zero chance to do anything there. Dragging his team into the final four was a huge accomplishment. That team was absolute trash.

The question isn’t whether Makar will pass him, it’s if he’s passed him already. And the answer to that is a resounding ‘no.’

Your original post which I responded to was this.

This (bolded) is false. I don't have access to hockey-reference's stathead tool anymore but if we adjust for league scoring Makar's this season point total stays more or less the same while Karlsson's 15-16 season point total jumps to around 100.

The actual adjusted for league scoring numbers at hockey reference was this

EK 82-18-74-92 28:58 MPG

Makar 77-27-56-83 25:40 MPG

I also wonder if Erik Alfredsson is reading this post made by you and many others about the difference in their teams.

It's pretty clear that Makar drives play with or without the "superstar other Avs", which some have ironically included Kadri as.

So yes it's pretty much statistically insignificant and EK didn't jump up to around 100 points adjusted it was 92.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Your original post which I responded to was this.




The actual adjusted for league scoring numbers at hockey reference was this

EK 82-18-74-92 28:58 MPG

Makar 77-27-56-83 25:40 MPG

I also wonder if Erik Alfredsson is reading this post made by you and many others about the difference in their teams.

It's pretty clear that Makar drives play with or without the "superstar other Avs", which some have ironically included Kadri as.

So yes it's pretty much statistically insignificant and EK didn't jump up to around 100 points adjusted it was 92.

I don’t care about adjusted point and I don’t care about points per minute. Neither does anyone else not from Colorado.

Did Makar finish first in scoring for blueliners? Did he finish top ten in scoring overall? Is he on a better or worse team than EK was?

He has not passed Karlsson. Not yet anyway.

 

[ps241]

Heated debate.

This final is going to be a big challenge for both Makar and the Avs. I am looking forward to seeing if he can lead his team past the Lightning. This will be a big challenge because they are finally meeting a team that checks all the boxes this playoffs.

This is one of the more intriguing matchups in years for me at least. Two powerhouses meeting head on…….no Cinderella’s.