Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[Chinaski89]

I could care less if Ottawa depended more on Karlsson. That means absolutely nothing.

Cale Makar’s greatness has nothing to do with the players around him.



Also, what’s dominating at a significantly higher level than this?

He looks like a champagne liberal… ohh no.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

And because of that great players will never get the credit they are due.

Nonsense. It simply provides context when comparing two players.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

If you’re going to compare the primes of two different players you look at how they performed vs their contemporaries. Please don’t try to pass off raw point totals as anything meaningful.

Okay. Makar last season 1.0ppg, 2nd highest dman 0.86ppg, Karlsson's ppg season, Letang 0.94ppg.

 

[majormajor]

I didn’t say he depends on his teammates. I said he benefits from playing with high quality players.

The scoring rates by teammate actually suggest that Mackinnon isn't helping Makar's 5v5 production. The more Makar has to share the puck, the less he scores. He has much better career scoring with Compher and Kadri's lines. Crazy, I know.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

The scoring rates by teammate actually suggest that Mackinnon isn't helping Makar's 5v5 production. The more Makar has to share the puck, the less he scores. He has much better career scoring with Compher and Kadri's lines. Crazy, I know.

And again… Kadri would also beat the crap out of Mike Hoffman. The Avs are much, much better than Ottawa was.

Do you still not understand this?

 

[GirardSpinorama]

And again… Kadri would also beat the crap out of Mike Hoffman. The Avs are much, much better than Ottawa was.

Do you still not understand this?

The Avs would beat the crap out of Ottawa. We know this.

Do you not understand the evidence he presented in front of you?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Okay. Makar last season 1.0ppg, 2nd highest dman 0.86ppg, Karlsson's ppg season, Letang 0.94ppg.

Nobody cares. Show how they finished relative to their peers.

It’s the only way comparing two players makes sense.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

The Avs would beat the crap out of Ottawa. We know this.

Do you not understand the evidence he presented in front of you?

I understand that no matter who’s on the ice at any given time Makar’s got a better team. It doesn’t matter if he scores more with Kadri than Mackinnon… it’s still a much better team and he’s going to have a much greater opportunity to score points than Karlsson would playing with scrubs.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Nonsense. It simply provides context when comparing two players.

Context that you can't quantify; that you just use to diminish the individual accomplish of the player. Ignore clear evidence that is right in front of you. (Mod)

Nobody cares. Show how they finished relative to their peers.

It’s the only way comparing two players makes sense.

What? It shows Letang is closer to Karlsson than Makar is to the next highest PPG dman.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Context that you can't quantify; that you just use to diminish the individual accomplish of the player. Ignore clear evidence that is right in front of you. (Mod)

The difference between us is that I’m applying the same logic I would in any comparison. It’s the same logic anyone would use. But… you have a vested interest here. You’re a fan trying to argue for a player. I’m not. I’m neutral in this and don’t have a horse in this race.

There’s absolutely NO reason whatsoever to look at raw stats instead of relative finishes. None.

What? It shows Letang is closer to Karlsson than Makar is to the next highest PPG dman.

Makar doesn’t even come in first… Josi does. Karlsson came in 4th in scoring overall.

So I don’t know what you’re talking about.

 

[Grub]

He gives my username excellent value.

What? People keep complimenting it. It might actually have value on here.

He's defiantly better than... Ray Bourque!

That aside, I think he deserves Conn Smythe if Colorado wins the cup.

Can just change my username to DudesWhereIsMakar and your username value tanks.

 

[majormajor]

And again… Kadri would also beat the crap out of Mike Hoffman. The Avs are much, much better than Ottawa was.

Do you still not understand this?

Up until this year Kadri was more of a 50 pt guy, and J.T. Compher is usually a 30 pt guy. Hoffman, Stone, Ryan, Zib, etc... all scored 50 or more when EK was in his prime.

Yet Makar goes out there with guys that were scoring less than Ottawa's top guys and he's scoring at rates much higher than Karlsson scored with anyone. He's just a far better 1 on 1 player than prime Karlsson, linemates really have little to do with Makar's success.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

The difference between us is that I’m applying the same logic I would in any comparison. It’s the same logic anyone would use. But… you have a vested interest here. You’re a fan trying to argue for a player. I’m not. I’m neutral in this and don’t have a horse in this race.

There’s absolutely NO reason whatsoever to look at raw stats instead of relative finishes. None.

Makar doesn’t even come in first… Josi does. Karlsson came in 4th in scoring overall.

So I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Makar came in first in PPG just last year. Love how you just ignore that completely.

Relative finish is incomplete information if you don't include their point totals or PPG totals.

If you finish with 80 points and ppg, you aren't that better than a guy with 79 points in 80 games; just because there's a bunch of players in between. It just means the spread in that year is very minimal.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Makar came in first in PPG just last year. Love how you just ignore that completely.

I just looked at totals, but that’s fair enough. He led in ppg.

Relative finish is incomplete information if you don't include their point totals or PPG totals.

If you finish with 80 points and ppg, you aren't that better than a guy with 79 points in 80 games; just because there's a bunch of players in between. It just means the spread in that year is very minimal.

Ok but if the guy your comparing has 11 less games and plays with Sidney Crosby.. I’d say there’s still a fairly large gulf between them. Unless you want to tell me playing with Crosby doesn’t matter again.

And to put into perspective how good Karlsson was, he was only three point off Crosby himself (in two more games. )

You’re also extrapolating from a shortened season last year. If he’d come in first again this year it would strengthen your argument but he didn’t.

 

[Freudian]

Nobody cares. Show how they finished relative to their peers.

It’s the only way comparing two players makes sense.

No. It's the only one you want to use because Makar looks better in comparison when using most others.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

No. It's the only one you want to use because Makar looks better in comparison when using most others.

Why would I want to “make him look worse?”

Again doesn’t make sense to look at raw numbers. I wouldn’t do that in any comparison between players in different seasons so why would I do it here?

If the numbers supported him, then I’d agree with the premise. They don’t.

 

[Avaholic29]

Makar now > prime karlsson

 

[GirardSpinorama]

I just looked at totals, but that’s fair enough. He led in ppg.

Ok but if the guy your comparing has 11 less games and plays with Sidney Crosby.. I’d say there’s still a fairly large gulf between them. Unless you want to tell me playing with Crosby doesn’t matter again.

And to put into perspective how good Karlsson was, he was only three point off Crosby himself (in two more games. )

It depends on how much letang produces as a result of Crosby. We've already shown you that Makar can produce in isolation of Mack (it's higher). It's not makar's fault that we can't loan him to Ottawa and get him to score there. You gave him a no win scenario. A good team helps a great player win. Not necessarily how much he can produce points wise. For example, good teams can get a massive lead and then their star players don't play much the rest of the game. Rantanen could have easily scored 100 if he wasn't rested before the playoffs.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Makar often plays his best hockey when the Avs top guys are out and he has to be the difference maker. It wouldn't be a stretch to suggest he would look more dominant on a worse team.

 

[Vancouver Canucks]

Makar has great hands, skates, and moves. I have seldom seen an explosive and an offensive defenseman like him.

 

[BayStBullies]

Yup. We haven't seen a defenceman like this in many generations.

 

[Vancouver Canucks]

Yup. We haven't seen a defenceman like this in many generations.

You think he might turn out to be like Brent Burns excelling in both defense and offense?

 

[QuagmireGiggity]

...

 

[apparentlyclueless]

It means one of them produces more offensively than the other. Even if we remove EKs worst years to give him a statistical boost and adjust for league scoring Makar produce more than EK. In the playoffs the difference is massive. One of them actually picks up his scoring there and for the other the scoring drops off.

This (bolded) is false. I don't have access to hockey-reference's stathead tool anymore but if we adjust for league scoring Makar's this season point total stays more or less the same while Karlsson's 15-16 season point total jumps to around 100.

Taking league scoring into account Makar does not have any argument over Karlsson. Yet.

 

[TheBeard]

Well both are recent. You do realize Erik Karlsson is still an active player? Guess it might be easy to miss.

The NHL is very different now than it was in 15-16. There are 7 players this year that would have topped or tied Kane’s league leading point total that year and 16 would have finished ahead of Jamie Benn in second. There were 34 80+ point players this year. Then? Only 5. The glory days of offense have returned and it has to be taken into consideration.