Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

Lafleurs Guy

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Now apply same criteria to say Jamie Benn, clearly better and more dominant player vs his competitors than likes of Sakic and Yzerman, right?
If you want to talk about Jamie Benn, go start a Jamie Benn thread.

In this thread we’re talking about a guy who consistently outscored his competitors, won multiple Norris trophies and placed top five in scoring vs a great up and coming blueliner who might one day be as good but isn’t yet. And no it’s not Bobby Orr or Nik Lidstrom…
 

Erik Alfredsson

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Yes and most people feel Karlsson was weak on the defensive part of the game. When you look at the stats, they don't lie. 11% means he isn't/wasn't very good.
First of all I guarantee you can't even explain what that stat means or what it's measuring.

Secondly that stat page you linked says that Karlsson's age was 47 years old in 2015, so it's probably not even reliable.

Thirdly we're discussing Karlsson in his prime. Not Karlsson when he was Makar's age. Is Makar better than Nick Lidstrom when Lidstrom was 23? Yes. Is he better than prime Lidstrom? No.

Karlsson was coming off of a major achilles injury that seriously effected his mobility and speed. This was an adjustment period in his career, and he struggled at both ends of the ice as a result. He started to really improve as a player in the 2nd half of the 2014-15 season. 2016-17 was his most impressive season as a complete player, and it's the same season he dragged Ottawa to the ECF on one leg while playing elite at both ends of the ice. He was only on the ice for 31% of Ottawa's 5v5 GA in the playoffs (only 11 GA) despite playing 28 minutes a night, and leading his team in points. For reference, Makar has been on the ice for 52% of Colorado's 5v5 GA, and he's playing a minute less than Karlsson, with less defensive zone starts.

If you're going to try to engage in the discussion, then do it in a meaningful way instead of consistently getting your facts wrong and making strange claims.
 
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GirardSpinorama

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If you want to talk about Jamie Benn, go start a Jamie Benn thread.

In this thread we’re talking about a guy who consistently outscored his competitors, won multiple Norris trophies and placed top five in scoring vs a great up and coming blueliner who might one day be as good but isn’t yet. And no it’s not Bobby Orr or Nik Lidstrom…

Way to completely miss the point about Jamie benn.
 
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Lafleurs Guy

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Way to completely miss the point about Jamie benn.
I didn’t miss anything, including the attempt to muddy the waters. I’m not going to spend efforts on that… but feel free to make a separate thread on it. I won’t be joining in.

Feel free to tell me how Makar is already better than prime Karlsson though…
 

johan f

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You make it sound it is Karlsson to blame for playing in ”only” 6 post seasons.

I think he has. Kid is unreal. And if he gets a cup this year, I think it's no question that Makar has exceeded a prime Karlsson in much less time. Makar has already had more playoff success in his first 4 years than Karlsson has had over his entire playoff career. Mind you, surprisingly Karlsson has only played in the post season 6 times in his 13 year career. But also Karlsson has played on some stacked Ottawa rosters too.
 

Northern Avs Fan

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The only reason Karlsson has a higher scoring finish than Makar is because he played more minutes. Not PK minutes either.

In Karlsson’s 15/16 season he played 2375 minutes. Makar played 1976 minutes this season. In 400 less minutes Makar finished with the more goals and points than EK.
 

Regal

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The only reason Karlsson has a higher scoring finish than Makar is because he played more minutes. Not PK minutes either.

In Karlsson’s 15/16 season he played 2375 minutes. Makar played 1976 minutes this season. In 400 less minutes Makar finished with the more goals and points than EK.

If Makar played the same minutes as Karlsson over a full 82 games and kept the same rates he had this year at ES and on the PP, he’d have 106 points, which would have been a 3/way tie for 6th, whereas Karlsson was tied for 4th. I do think Makar is probably better, and the competition this year was better too, but I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily the only thing that affected scoring finishes. Most defensemen can’t keep the same rates in almost 30 min a game either.
 

Erik Alfredsson

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The only reason Karlsson has a higher scoring finish than Makar is because he played more minutes. Not PK minutes either.

In Karlsson’s 15/16 season he played 2375 minutes. Makar played 1976 minutes this season. In 400 less minutes Makar finished with the more goals and points than EK.
Maybe Makar played less minutes because he's not capable of playing the same minutes as Karlsson.
 

Northern Avs Fan

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If Makar played the same minutes as Karlsson over a full 82 games and kept the same rates he had this year at ES and on the PP, he’d have 106 points, which would have been a 3/way tie for 6th, whereas Karlsson was tied for 4th. I do think Makar is probably better, and the competition this year was better too, but I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily the only thing that affected scoring finishes. Most defensemen can’t keep the same rates in almost 30 min a game either.

Well put. It was an incredible season, no doubt.

I’m just disputing the notion that the gap in scoring finishes gives Karlsson an advantage offensively. The minutes played is noteworthy, when we’re talking about non-penalty kill minutes.
 

Chinaski89

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What stacked rosters did Karlsson play on?

I can tell you he never played on a team remotely close to the current Avs.
2018/2019 Sharks were pretty stacked on paper. Very likely would have won the cup that year if Martin Jones wasn’t their goalie, Karlsson never injured his groin and the Blues didn’t successfully headhunt and knock out three Sharks in the conference finals.
 

Adele Dazeem

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The only reason Karlsson has a higher scoring finish than Makar is because he played more minutes. Not PK minutes either.

In Karlsson’s 15/16 season he played 2375 minutes. Makar played 1976 minutes this season. In 400 less minutes Makar finished with the more goals and points than EK.

EK played with who? Makar played with who? I rest my case.
 

GirardSpinorama

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I didn’t miss anything, including the attempt to muddy the waters. I’m not going to spend efforts on that… but feel free to make a separate thread on it. I won’t be joining in.

Feel free to tell me how Makar is already better than prime Karlsson though…

Makar is better because he's already surpassed karlsson's peak production. Karlsson wasn't playing in a different era. He was in an era with less dominant offensive dmen or dmen who hasn't blossomed offensively yet.
 
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Lafleurs Guy

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Makar is better because he's already surpassed karlsson's peak production. Karlsson wasn't playing in a different era. He was in an era with less dominant offensive dmen or dmen who hasn't blossomed offensively yet.
Sorry… no.

Karlsson not only was (by far) the highest scoring blueliner in his time, he was a top five scorer overall. Makar isn’t even the top scoring blueliner in the league let alone top five overall. And again, I’m not sure if he’s even better than Hedman or Fox. He’s certainly not miles ahead of them.

It’s ridiculous to sit there and only look at raw star totals when comparing Karlsson. No the league wasn’t that different but the scoring was lower and Larlsson was far more dominant.
 

GirardSpinorama

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Sorry… no.

Karlsson not only was (by far) the highest scoring blueliner in his time, he was a top five scorer overall. Makar isn’t even the top scoring blueliner in the league let alone top five overall.

It’s ridiculous to sit there and only look at raw star totals.

Sorry no. It's ridiculous to sit here and only look at scoring placement. Karlsson's best season is basically makar's career average right now and won't be anywhere near the history books.

We're gonna basically sit here and go back and forth all day and never come to an agreement.
 

Lafleurs Guy

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The only reason Karlsson has a higher scoring finish than Makar is because he played more minutes. Not PK minutes either.

In Karlsson’s 15/16 season he played 2375 minutes. Makar played 1976 minutes this season. In 400 less minutes Makar finished with the more goals and points than EK.
1. Who cares?
2. Makar’s playing with a much better club that greatly enhances his offensive production.
3. This demonstrates that Ottawa depended on Karlsson a whole lot more than Colorado depends on Makar?
4. Karlsson dominated at a significantly higher level.
 

Lafleurs Guy

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Sorry no. It's ridiculous to sit here and only look at scoring placement.
Why in the world you would think this makes sense is beyond me. Prime Karlsson’s not in the league right now. His scoring would be higher.

Freaking Josi scored 96 points this year.
 

GirardSpinorama

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Why in the world you would think this makes sense is beyond me. Prime Karlsson’s not in the league right now. His scoring would be higher.

Freaking Josi scored 96 points this year.

Nope. Its beyond me that you think karlsson's ppg season is worth more just because he was in a weaker field. Josi right now is better than prime Karlsson. Not every player peaks at the same age.
 

Sting

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2018/2019 Sharks were pretty stacked on paper. Very likely would have won the cup that year if Martin Jones wasn’t their goalie, Karlsson never injured his groin and the Blues didn’t successfully headhunt and knock out three Sharks in the conference finals.
Except by then EK was a shadow of his former self. He's not even half the player he was. Most people forget how truly dominant a player he was because his prime was cut so short.
 

Lafleurs Guy

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Nope. Its beyond me that you think karlsson's ppg season is worth more just because he was in a weaker field.
It’s not his ppg. It’s how dominant he is relative to his contemporaries.

If you’re going to say Makar has surpassed Karlsson then you’d better come back with something better than “Look he scored 86 points!!!” He’s not even the highest scoring blueliner in the league…
 

Northern Avs Fan

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1. Who cares?
2. Makar’s playing with a much better club that greatly enhances his offensive production.
3. This demonstrates that Ottawa depended on Karlsson a whole lot more than Colorado depends on Makar?
4. Karlsson dominated at a significantly higher level.

I could care less if Ottawa depended more on Karlsson. That means absolutely nothing.

Cale Makar’s greatness has nothing to do with the players around him.



Also, what’s dominating at a significantly higher level than this?

 

GirardSpinorama

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It’s not his ppg. It’s how dominant he is relative to his contemporaries.

If you’re going to say Makar has surpassed Karlsson then you’d better come back with something better than “Look he scored 86 points!!!”

Weaker contemporaries. Makar would look dominant against Subban (lol Norris).
 
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Lafleurs Guy

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Cale Makar’s greatness has nothing to do with the players around him.



Also, I could care less if Ottawa depended more on Karlsson. That means absolutely nothing.

What’s dominating at a significantly higher level than this?



His point totals definitely have something to do with his teammates. That’s a fact.

Totally agree that he’d be great on a crappy team too. But his point totals would be lower.
 

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