Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[TheBeard]

He was still the best players on the ice in that series.

Sure was. No arguing that, but the point total overall is slightly misleading IMO because of the quality of goaltender he’s faced.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

It actually fits the eye test. Karlsson was never that much into defending.


And we know this how?

So all the best players play for the ***** teams then? You can't be good on a good team?

Funny

???? I don’t even understand what you’re saying…

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I don’t think Karlsson would in a full regular season with Mack and Mikko on his team. Then I realized Makar is doing in the playoffs but it’s because it’s one of the greatest playoff performances I’ve ever seen by a defensman

And you don’t think that it’s harder to advance with a bunch of scrubs than with a stacked team? You think it’s the same thing getting your team to the final four when your team is crap?

 

[avsfan9]

And you don’t think that it’s harder to advance with a bunch of scrubs than with a stacked team? You think it’s the same thing getting your team to the final four when your team is crap?

I guess we will never know how Makar would do on a poor team, not the near future anyways but I’ve witnessed myself both players playing in the nhl and I think Cale Makar is a better d man. Karlsson was great but he was never close to Crosby, OV or even Malkin for the best player in the game. If you watch Makar play and just see a good defensman playing for a great team then I feel sorry for you and your ability to evaluate hockey talent. If Karlsson was the best d man of his generation then Makar is of his generation. Doughty, Carlson, Josi and P.K. Subban and Weber all had their moment of competing for best d man in the league, don’t act like it was Karlsson two or three tiers above everyone else.

 

[umma gumma]

I guess we will never know how Makar would do on a poor team, not the near future anyways but I’ve witnessed myself both players playing in the nhl and I think Cale Makar is a better d man. Karlsson was great but he was never close to Crosby, OV or even Malkin for the best player in the game. If you watch Makar play and just see a good defensman playing for a great team then I feel sorry for you and your ability to evaluate hockey talent. If Karlsson was the best d man of his generation then Makar is of his generation. Doughty, Carlson, Josi and P.K. Subban and Weber all had their moment of competing for best d man in the league, don’t act like it was Karlsson two or three tiers above everyone else.

Well that's just it isn't it? They all had moments, but Karlsson was there every year.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I guess we will never know how Makar would do on a poor team, not the near future anyways but I’ve witnessed myself both players playing in the nhl and I think Cale Makar is a better d man. Karlsson was great but he was never close to Crosby, OV or even Malkin for the best player in the game. If you watch Makar play and just see a good defensman playing for a great team then I feel sorry for you and your ability to evaluate hockey talent. If Karlsson was the best d man of his generation then Makar is of his generation. Doughty, Carlson, Josi and P.K. Subban and Weber all had their moment of competing for best d man in the league, don’t act like it was Karlsson two or three tiers above everyone else.

I don’t even know if Makar is best in the league right now. Hedman, Fox… and speaking of Josi he outpointed Makar this year. It’s not the runaway train you’re saying it is.

I think he’s awesome and probably will be definitively the best in the league soon. But you’re getting way ahead of yourself when you say he’s already passed Karlsson. I’m sorry but no f***ing way. Not yet.

 

[apparentlyclueless]

11%. Do you know math? Serious question. 11% EV on defence is not 50%.

This is pretty rich coming from you, since you beating the dead ppg horse till the end does not indicate you would understand math or numbers at all. It's the only argument you have.

Some p/pg stats from the last three seasons:
Nikita Kucherov 1.34
Artemi Panarin 1.34
Mikko Rantanen 1.18
Steven Stamkos 1.17
Jake Guentzel 1.08
JT Miller 1.07

Compared to some players from 2011 to 2016:
Sidney Crosby 1.23
Evgeni Malkin 1.17
Connor McDavid 1.17
Steven Stamkos 1.02
John Tavares 0.98
Claude Giroux 0.95

So yeah, clearly Kucherov and Panarin are head and shoulders better than Crosby ever was, hell, theyre also much better than McDavid! See!

This also means that Jake Guentzel and JT Miller are much better than Tavares and Giroux ever were.

Damn, even Steven Stamkos in his 30's is clearly much better player than Steven Stamkos when he was 21-26 old.

You see? Your p/pg argument is bullshit.

Now these are facts you haven't been able to counter or explain If Makar is so much better than Karlsson in his prime:

Karlsson is The only defenceman besides Orr to lead the league in assists.

Karlsson finished top-5 in scoring as a defenceman.

Karlsson won the Norris when he was 21 years old.

And so on... You get the point.

And yeah, regarding Karlsson's overstated defensive woes I suggest you read this article, which was also linked here before:

What Makes Erik Karlsson the NHL's Best Defenceman

At the halfway point of the 2015-16 NHL season, Erik Karlsson stands alone in leading both all NHL defenceman and all Ottawa Senators skaters in points...

syndication.bleacherreport.com

There are actual, quantifiable facts and well-constructed arguments that show how good Karlsson was, not just offensively. Much more convincing than the usual "bu-bu-but Karlsson can't play defence brah!!".

Finally I just want to stress this: I myself believe that Makar can and probably will surpass Karlsson, but we're not there yet. He's a truly special player.

 

[Stephen]

I argued my position it by providing different quantifiable evidences. You're countering with "but I think Makar is better offensively"?

Ok, that's your opinion. What arguments do you have to support this notion though? You're free to think that Makar is better offensively, but why do you think that?

I don't think there's a wrong answer here, but I have failed to see anyone argue that Makar is better offensively provide any concrete evidence for it... besides 86>82 pts but that makes no sense without league-wide scoring context.

Makar has more points in the playoffs Karlsson and played in 2/3 of the career totals of Karlsson to this moment. His single season career point and goals highs already surpass Karlsson’s. And he’s only in his third season at 23.

But if you want to play the era adjustment card and scoring finishes and team quality cliches and not watch the games, feel free to do so.

 

[guzzy]

Do you know hockey? Serious question.

Yes and most people feel Karlsson was weak on the defensive part of the game. When you look at the stats, they don't lie. 11% means he isn't/wasn't very good.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Makar has more points in the playoffs Karlsson and played in 2/3 of the career totals of Karlsson to this moment.

We’ve heard this before… it doesn’t change anything. Stop repeating this like it’s some kind of great point… it’s not.

One guy played for crap teams the other played on stacked ones. Two completely different situations in the playoffs. There’s no way in God’s green earth that Karlsson ( or Makar for that matter) was going to be able to do anything in the playoffs with those scrubs. No chance.

 

[abo9]

Makar has more points in the playoffs Karlsson and played in 2/3 of the career totals of Karlsson to this moment. His single season career point and goals highs already surpass Karlsson’s. And he’s only in his third season at 23.

But if you want to play the era adjustment card and scoring finishes and team quality cliches and not watch the games, feel free to do so.

At 23 Karlsson already had a Norris trophy - voted as the league's best defenseman if you want to use the age to prop Makar's achievements.

As far as the "era adjusted card" go, I think that this year made it especially obvious that it's not logical to compre points between seasons at face value.

Would you take me seriously if I argued that Alex Ovechkin and Sidney Crosby are better offensive players today than they were in 2015-16? They scored more points this year.

Is Joe Pavelski at 37 a better offensive player than he was at 31? Tarasenko too? Tavares?

Playoff wise we'll obviously be in disagreement because I believe era context matters.

And again, I've never mentioned team quality, or you're responding to the wrong person...

In any case, both are phenomenal talents. Karlsson's prime is passed. I can't wait to watch Makar against TB or NYR in the coming days

 

[avsfan9]

We’ve heard this before… it doesn’t change anything. Stop repeating this like it’s some kind of great point… it’s not.

One guy played for crap teams the other played on stacked ones. Two completely different situations in the playoffs. There’s no way in God’s green earth that Karlsson ( or Makar for that matter) was going to be able to do anything in the playoffs with those scrubs. No chance.

They can’t help what teams they are on they can only help what they do on those teams. People like you are always going to say Karlsson was better because he played on a lesser team and there will never be any changing your mind. Makar could win3 conn smythes, 4 Stanley cups , score 1200 points as a d man and the narrative will always be look at the team he played for while Karlsson played on crap teams. Some people have their minds set, the same as some people will always say Dahlin is a generational d man and had the most points ever as a teenage d man but he just plays on a crap team. Some peoples mind will never be changed as is the case here. Same as Paul Coffey was not so great he just played with Gretzky and co. And racked up a lot of points

 

[abo9]

We’ve heard this before… it doesn’t change anything. Stop repeating this like it’s some kind of great point… it’s not.

One guy played for crap teams the other played on stacked ones. Two completely different situations in the playoffs. There’s no way in God’s green earth that Karlsson ( or Makar for that matter) was going to be able to do anything in the playoffs with those scrubs. No chance.

No need to even bring up team qualities. Karlsson was 6th in scoring during those playoffs (in 3/4 rounds) and Makar is currently 5th in 3/3 rounds.

someone else also pointed out that Makar was on the ice for a bigger share of Avs goal against, lesser share of goals for all while playong a min less than Karlsson during his best playoff run.

Again, no need to compre team qualities. There's tons of hard evidence pointing to prime Karlsson >= current Makar (its really close though, Makar is amazing)

 

[umma gumma]

Yes and most people feel Karlsson was weak on the defensive part of the game. When you look at the stats, they don't lie. 11% means he isn't/wasn't very good.

It doesn't matter what your numbers say, you do not get that far in this league by being 'not very good' if you're being counted on to carry the load, which is especially true on a mediocre team. And no most people don't feel that way just because you say so.

 

[swiftwin]

PPG in first three years. He has already surpasses Karlsson's best season for points. Give it up already.

Bitch please... In Karlsson's best scoring season, he scored 82 in 82, finished top 5 in scoring, was the only defenseman besides Orr to ever lead the league in assists, led his own team by 21pts, all in the league's lowest scoring season since the '05 lockout.

Makar's best scoring season, he was PPG+ in the league's highest scoring season since 1995, didn't even lead defensemen in points, finished 21st in points.

There are ways where Karlsson and Makar are close, but points scoring is not one of them.

 

[ottawa]

Yes, Karlsson always struggled defensively as much as Karlsson Stans will argue he didn't.

Makar can hold it down in his own end and he can put up big points. Maybe EK is slightly better offensively when adjusted for goals, but the small gap between their offense does not make up for the large gap defensively.

 

[swiftwin]

If Makar wants to be considered in the same conversation as Karlsson at his peak, he needs to accomplish at least one of the following things at a bare minimum:

1. Win a Norris Trophy
2. Lead all defensemen in scoring

 

[swiftwin]

We are going to be hearing alot of things like this really soon when the separation becomes even more clear.

A former NHL Dman calls Makar the Best all around NHL Dman since Orr here.

Cool story, now come back when the Boston's own media says Makar is the best Dman since Boston's own Bobby Orr. Because Karlsson has already accomplished that when he dismantled the Bruins in the 2017 playoffs.

And, if there’s any player since Orr who deserves to be called a stemwinder, it’s Ottawa defenseman Erik Karlsson.

Ottawa defenseman Erik Karlsson proves the stemwinder for Senators

Hockey writers of generations past used to describe the truly special players with a wonderful word rarely heard anymore: Stemwinder.The etymology of the word, simply, was the stem, or knob, on a w…

www.bostonherald.com

 

[I am toxic]

As highly rated as Makar is, he is still under-rated.

HFBoards, always five years late to the party.

Better than reddit tho, which shows up at the wrong place.

 

[J bo Jeans]

Only people from Ottawa think Makar isnt better. I would know as I am from Ottawa.

 

[swiftwin]

Only people from Ottawa think Makar isnt better. I would know as I am from Ottawa.

Apparently you haven't been reading this thread, because even Habs fans are saying it's Karlsson.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

They can’t help what teams they are on they can only help what they do on those teams.

No kidding.

I’m not the one comparing two completely different situations and trying to pretend like they’re the same.

People like you are always going to say Karlsson was better because he played on a lesser team and there will never be any changing your mind. Makar could win3 conn smythes, 4 Stanley cups , score 1200 points as a d man and the narrative will always be look at the team he played for while Karlsson played on crap teams.

“People like you…” ?

Where the hell did I say he was better because he played on a lesser team?

I said he’s better because he was a top five scorer and more dominant vs his competitors. I also said it’s silly to try to compare playoff accomplishments when the two are in entirely different situations.

Some people have their minds set, the same as some people will always say Dahlin is a generational d man and had the most points ever as a teenage d man but he just plays on a crap team. Some peoples mind will never be changed as is the case here. Same as Paul Coffey was not so great he just played with Gretzky and co. And racked up a lot of points

Yeah, some people have their minds set. And it’s usually fans of a player overstating where he’s at.

I don’t have a horse in this race. I never liked Karlsson actually. But to say that Makar has already surpassed him is nonsense.

Again… in time? Sure, I can see it. Great player and the potential is there. But not yet.

 

[AvalancheRy]

If Makar wants to be considered in the same conversation as Karlsson at his peak, he needs to accomplish at least one of the following things at a bare minimum:

1. Win a Norris Trophy
2. Lead all defensemen in scoring

Those are pretty redundant in today's standards. The second usually leads to the first, which is flawed in my opinion. Makar should get the Norris this year, but the point zombies will look to the (8?) extra points Josi had while ignoring Makar's better defense. The Avs/Preds series was a microcosm of the entire year. Pretty dumb but it is what it is.

Avs still have one more series to go. If Makar plays like he's capable, he'll have the hardware to put this argument to rest quite definitively in the minds of most.

 

[CutOnDime97]

Karlsson was insane the SCF year. But yes, probably. Sucks EK65 fell off so hard. :\

 

[gary69]

No kidding.

I’m not the one comparing two completely different situations and trying to pretend like they’re the same.

“People like you…” ?

Where the hell did I say he was better because he played on a lesser team?

I said he’s better because he was a top five scorer and more dominant vs his competitors. I also said it’s silly to try to compare playoff accomplishments when the two are in entirely different situations.

Yeah, some people have their minds set. And it’s usually fans of a player overstating where he’s at.

I don’t have a horse in this race. I never liked Karlsson actually. But to say that Makar has already surpassed him is nonsense.

Again… in time? Sure, I can see it. Great player and the potential is there. But not yet.

Now apply same criteria to say Jamie Benn, clearly better and more dominant player vs his competitors than likes of Sakic and Yzerman, right?