Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[abo9]

Arguments for prime Karlsson being better is predicated on punishing Makar for being on a better team.

Not at all. Offensively at least, it's pretty easy to show that prime Karlsson > Makar without involving either teams or injuries.

(Others in this thread argue that Makar is better offensively than prime Karlsson, which is what I'm challenging)

EK was a top 5 scorer in the league at his peak. Makar this season he was 19th or 20th in scoring - not even the highest scoring D

Someone brought up the difference between competition in terms of points per game. There again, prime Karlsson beats Makar.

If we're comparing their playoff, well after 3 rounds, Makar is 5th in scoring. Karlsson finished 6th in scoring during the 2017 playoffs, he played 3/4 rounds. Idk where he stood before the finals were played unfortunately.

Clearly, Makar scored more pts. But he ranked around the same spot compred to his peers than Karlsson did.

No need to get the quality of teams involved. EK's actual numbers were slightly lower but that was par for the course at the time of his prime. He separated himself more vs his contemporaries than Makar has done this year

 

[abo9]

This is what the Boston Herald had to say about Erik Karlsson as he was dismantling the Bruins in the 2017 playoffs:

Ottawa defenseman Erik Karlsson proves the stemwinder for Senators

Hockey writers of generations past used to describe the truly special players with a wonderful word rarely heard anymore: Stemwinder.The etymology of the word, simply, was the stem, or knob, on a w…

www.bostonherald.com

I'm actually pretty disapointed that t'we did not even see the best of Erik Karlsson because his Achille got chopped 70%.

Nevermind the fact that we did not even get to enjoy the "post achille" domination of Karlsson for long because he lost half of his ankle bone a few years later

As good as EK was, I still wonder what the Sharks GM was smoking to acquire him and give him that ridiculous contract after such injuries

 

[RedHawkDown]

I really cannot understand how you could have watched the peak of Karlsson career and claim any current defenseman is at his level offensively. That peak was like 2 years , and I think Makar will have a way way better overall career…but for “prime”…it still isn’t close

 

[elmaco]

Damn, I thought I might be overrating Makar a bit when I called him the 2nd best player in the NHL a while back, but some posters in this thread are putting me to shame.

There's no one else i would take after McDavid than Makar. Total package already at so young.

 

[swiftwin]

There's no one else i would take after McDavid than Makar. Total package already at so young.

I agree with this, but Karlsson's peak was still better.

 

[x Tame Impala]

To give you an idea of Karlsson at his prime.

Karlsson in 2015-16 (82pts in 82 gp):
-That season was the lowest league average scoring season since the lockout
-Karlsson was top 5 in scoring among all players in the league
-Karlsson was the only defenseman besides Bobby Orr to ever lead the league in assists
-Karlsson led his team in scoring by 21 pts (ahead of Mark Stone)
-His team didn't even make the playoffs

Karlsson in 2016-17 (71pts in 77gp):
-Epic playoff performance, only defenseman to every get a Conn Smythe vote despite not making the finals
-So good against Boston, that the Boston media was comparing him to Orr
-Also had 2nd most blocked shots in the league in the reg season

Don't get me wrong, Makar is absolutely phenomenal. But people seem to be forgetting how good Karlsson was. Makar is closing in on Karlsson's prime, but I would argue he's not quite there yet.

Karlsson wasn’t better than Kane or Crosby in 2015/16

 

[swiftwin]

Karlsson wasn’t better than Kane or Crosby in 2015/16

I'm not sure how this is relevant to the discussion.

 

[Rals]

Karlsson was good at defense. But the lowlight packages are produced in Toronto, and people don't watch Ottawa.

 

[WF19]

Will look great next to seider one day.

Would be absolutely sick but will never actually happen.

 

[Stephen]

Not at all. Offensively at least, it's pretty easy to show that prime Karlsson > Makar without involving either teams or injuries.

(Others in this thread argue that Makar is better offensively than prime Karlsson, which is what I'm challenging)

EK was a top 5 scorer in the league at his peak. Makar this season he was 19th or 20th in scoring - not even the highest scoring D

Someone brought up the difference between competition in terms of points per game. There again, prime Karlsson beats Makar.

If we're comparing their playoff, well after 3 rounds, Makar is 5th in scoring. Karlsson finished 6th in scoring during the 2017 playoffs, he played 3/4 rounds. Idk where he stood before the finals were played unfortunately.

Clearly, Makar scored more pts. But he ranked around the same spot compred to his peers than Karlsson did.

No need to get the quality of teams involved. EK's actual numbers were slightly lower but that was par for the course at the time of his prime. He separated himself more vs his contemporaries than Makar has done this year

Right now there are people making an argument that Makar is as impactful or more than peak Nathan Mackinnon on the same team. So that puts Makar in the Top 5 conversation already today.

 

[jetsforever]

Makar isn't even currently the undisputed best defenceman - Josi just put up 96 points
Let's wait before putting him over one of the best d-men ever

 

[abo9]

Right now there are people making an argument that Makar is as impactful or more than peak Nathan Mackinnon on the same team. So that puts Makar in the Top 5 conversation already today.

Eh did you not read that I said offensively? People argue that Makar> prime Karlsson offensively.

Impact is obviously different, as it accounts his defensive play... which is why im just challenging that notion offensively

 

[didimentionlarseller]

he fed the hungry multitude

 

[Taluss]

The fact we are having this discussion when Makar is only 23 is incredible. Looking forward to seeing him throughout his career, the best is yet to come I’d guess.

 

[Fatass]

Said it here before. Makar is the best player I’ve seen since Orr. He will lead the Avs to multiple Cups, while winning Norris, Hart, and Smyth trophies.
I hate the Avs, but Makar is beyond amazing.

 

[Thenameless]

Karlsson for a short time was considered a Top 3 player, if not the very best player in the world. Makar has not reached that level. Let's give it time.

 

[BLONG7]

Makar plays a much better game in his own end...............will he reach the offensive output EK did, sure looks like he is heading there....
Give him some more time........

 

[ACLEVERNAME]

Karlsson's trajectory was straight up before he was Matt Cooke'd. Biggest take away would be soak in the raw talent while it's there because things can turn on a dime in this game.

I know Karlsson is almost an afterthought these days but we (fans) were truely robbed of a generational talent in an instant. It's really f***ing sad.

All the best to Makar but understand the nuances when making (today) comparisons.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Makar isn't even currently the undisputed best defenceman - Josi just put up 96 points
Let's wait before putting him over one of the best d-men ever

Why does Roman Josi get to sneak away from the fact that he’s consistently underperformed in the playoffs? Maybe because he doesn’t play in the Toronto market?

Josi only has 42 points in 85 games, and he’s -28 in the postseason.

Does anyone actually think he’s better than Makar?

 

[Stephen]

Eh did you not read that I said offensively? People argue that Makar> prime Karlsson offensively.

Impact is obviously different, as it accounts his defensive play... which is why im just challenging that notion offensively

I think Makar is superior offensive player than Karlsson, but I'm pretty sure the counter to that is going to "but the Avalanche!"

Doesn't really matter how finely we slice it. Erik Karlsson in his prime was obviously an elite, cream of the crop defenseman who did special things but there were also years when other defensemen of his era were better via some different blend of statistical production, offense, defense or team success.

IMO, saying Makar has surpassed Karlsson really isn't all that controversial or implausible.

 

[Stephen]

Makar isn't even currently the undisputed best defenceman - Josi just put up 96 points
Let's wait before putting him over one of the best d-men ever

Makar has more career playoff points than Doughty, Salming, Weber, Josi and is tied with Erik Karlsson today on his entry level contract. He has a long way to go if he ever wants to be the best defenseman ever, obviously. Probably best to just enjoy the ride.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Karlsson had a greater impact on the ice than Makar. You can say that this is because Makar has other elite players to play with, but it is what it is. I actually think Makar does do somethings better than Karlsson offensively, namely his shot and his lateral movement. But Karlsson really controlled the pace of the game in a way that I've not seen from any other defenseman in my lifetime. He could speed up or slow down the pace of the game when the puck was on his stick, and he had the puck on his stick a lot. He also had much better vision and creativity than Makar, Karlsson was a top 3 playmaker in the league in his prime.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Makar has more career playoff points than Doughty, Salming, Weber, Josi and is tied with Erik Karlsson today on his entry level contract. He has a long way to go if he ever wants to be the best defenseman ever, obviously. Probably best to just enjoy the ride.

Your arguments are in such bad faith. Not only is it well established that the era in which prime Karlsson played in lower scoring than Makar's current era, but you want to take a look at the goalies they've faced so far in the playoffs?

Karlsson:
Lundqvist (2012, 2017)
Price (2013, 2015)
Vokoun (2013)
Rask (2017)
Murray (2017)

The top 3 goalies of that generation.

Makar:
Smith (2019, 2022)
Jones (2019)
Kuemper (2020)
Khudobin (2020)
Binnington (2021)
Fleury (2021)
Ingram (2022)
Husso (2022)

I'm sure Karlsson would've had quite a few more points in the playoffs if he was shooting on guys like Mike Smith and Martin Jones lol.

 

[TheBeard]

The quality of goaltending sure has declined in recent years.

 

[Freudian]

Your argument is “Cale was better than Connor in a 4 game series and some say Connor is better than Wayne so therefore Cale is the best of all time.” I’m fairly certain you’re not old enough to remember anything hockey-related before 2010.

Alternatively the argument is:

* Cale Makar has the fourth highest P/GP in the history of the game among defensemen (100+ GP) in the regular season.
* Cale Makar has the second highest P/GP in the history of the game among defensemen (30+ GP) in the playoffs. He's also been doing it while having 8 PIM in 49 games. If you are worried about sample size here, Makar is already at over 70% of the postseason games played Karlsson has in his whole career.
* He's already better defensively than Karlsson ever was.

The thing with Makar is that you don't need to pretend a lot of seasons doesn't exist to try to make the case. You can count all seasons because there is consistency from day 1.