Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[jj cale]

With all due respect, your “watch the YouTube highlights” arguments aren’t convincing.

I think Makar is awesome. He’s something special. But it’s going overboard to say he’s already better than prime Karlsson.

I believe he can get there. He’s great. But people are getting ahead of themselves. Let’s give him a couple of years before crowning him.

It's shotgun reactions, same as with McD.

I love both Makar and Mcdavid and I've waxed poetically about McDavid and his play these playoffs but people are straight out starting to call them best ever, etc and I just don't see how you can do that yet. I see people already having him ahead of a guy like Lemieux and saying he is more talented then Mario and as great as he is I just don't see it, Lemieux was superior in parts of his game to Mcdavid. McD has him beat in other areas.

But he's not better, not yet, and honestly i don't think he ever will be, Lemieux was more gifted offensively all around.

I'm willing to take a wait and see approach in the coming years but as of now I very much see these takes as a recency bias viewpoint.

 

[Stephen]

(Mod)

Arguments in favour of Karlsson being better at his peak are numerous. Makar doesn't have anything on peak Karlsson except the subjective idea that he's better defensively (can someone demonstrate it concretely?).

After all, we're talking peak karlsson, not career wise

Arguments for prime Karlsson being better is predicated on punishing Makar for being on a better team.

 

[klozge]

WHy stop there? I believe Makar's skating can cure cancer and that if he works on his defense game he could be Jesus.

And now it's absolutely clear to everyone that you have no idea who Makar even is.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Arguments for prime Karlsson being better is predicated on punishing Makar for being on a better team.

While carrying a bad team like seldom seen in 2017 is a big one, arguments are also made for prime Karlsson scoring more than Makar relative to the league, and leading the 2014 Olympics in points while not being on the ice for a goal against. There are many good arguments for Karlsson here. For Makar, too, admittedly.

 

[TheBeard]

And now it's absolutely clear to everyone that you have no idea who Makar even is.

Everyone knows who Mort Makar is

 

[klozge]

Everyone knows who Mort Makar is

Watch more of Mort playing defense in the future. I promise, you'll enjoy it even if you don't like enjoying it.

 

[TheBeard]

Watch more of Mort playing defense in the future. I promise, you'll enjoy it even if you don't like enjoying it.

I didn't know he was already better defensively than Jesus. Clear proof that people can be so obsessed with a player that they can't recognize a tongue-in-cheek quip about how obsessed they are with said player.

 

[Stephen]

While carrying a bad team like seldom seen in 2017 is a big one, arguments are also made for prime Karlsson scoring more than Makar relative to the league, and leading the 2014 Olympics in points while not being on the ice for a goal against. There are many good arguments for Karlsson here. For Makar, too, admittedly.

Yeah, in a Makar for Karlsson, I have no appetite for diminishing any part of EK, but what’s casually being overlooked here is we have a 22 year old defenseman on an ELC who is the best or second best player on a juggernaut squad.

For me, being the best, on the best team with other elite players and contending for titles is what it’s really all about and is more important than individual greatness on a mediocre team.

 

[swiftwin]

To give you an idea of Karlsson at his prime.

Karlsson in 2015-16 (82pts in 82 gp):
-That season was the lowest league average scoring season since the lockout
-Karlsson was top 5 in scoring among all players in the league
-Karlsson was the only defenseman besides Bobby Orr to ever lead the league in assists
-Karlsson led his team in scoring by 21 pts (ahead of Mark Stone)
-His team didn't even make the playoffs

Karlsson in 2016-17 (71pts in 77gp):
-Epic playoff performance, only defenseman to every get a Conn Smythe vote despite not making the finals
-So good against Boston, that the Boston media was comparing him to Orr
-Also had 2nd most blocked shots in the league in the reg season

Don't get me wrong, Makar is absolutely phenomenal. But people seem to be forgetting how good Karlsson was. Makar is closing in on Karlsson's prime, but I would argue he's not quite there yet.

 

[swiftwin]

Lol sens fans think we've forgotten how Karlsson played in his prime as if it was a million years ago like Gretzky or Howe. Makar is better, already defensively and offensively.

Well, it's the only logical explanation as to why people would think Makar is currently better than Karlsson at his prime.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

Erik Karlsson's prime was something else, that dude would've got the Conn Smyth in 2017 even if the Sens lost the finals to Nashville. I don't fault Makar for playing with better teammates since only a moronic sports fan would use that argument but imagine if EK65 played with caliber of players of a MacK, Rantanen instead of the guys he had in Ottawa. EK65 might have a better peak but Makar will have the better career.

 

[swiftwin]

This is what the Boston Herald had to say about Erik Karlsson as he was dismantling the Bruins in the 2017 playoffs:

Hockey writers of generations past used to describe the truly special players with a wonderful word rarely heard anymore: Stemwinder.

The etymology of the word, simply, was the stem, or knob, on a watch that had to be wound periodically to make the watch run. For a guy like Hockey Hall of Famer and former Herald beat man D. Leo Monahan, the word came to mean an exceptional and unique player who made his team go.

Monahan used it regularly to describe Bobby Orr.

And, if there’s any player since Orr who deserves to be called a stemwinder, it’s Ottawa defenseman Erik Karlsson.

Ottawa defenseman Erik Karlsson proves the stemwinder for Senators

Hockey writers of generations past used to describe the truly special players with a wonderful word rarely heard anymore: Stemwinder.The etymology of the word, simply, was the stem, or knob, on a w…

www.bostonherald.com

 

[Slurpeelover27]

WHy stop there? I believe Makar's skating can cure cancer and that if he works on his defense game he could be Jesus.

Tell me more. Your arguments are fascinating and riveting!

They really should have an minimum age for posters. At least over the age of 12 when some of your executive functioning skills have been developed a bit more.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Well, it's the only logical explanation as to why people would think Makar is currently better than Karlsson at his prime.

Or. We just never thought Karlsson was that good.

 

[swiftwin]

In the regular season, Cale scored 7 more goals than Karlsson ever has, and topped Karlsson's career high in points with 86.

Don't even try to compare scoring between these two...

2015-16 had the lowest league-wide scoring average since the 2005 lockout. That season Karlsson had 82pts in 82gp. Was 5th in scoring league wide. Was the only defenseman besides Bobby Orr to ever lead the league in assists. Led his own team in points by 21pts. On a team that didn't even make the playoffs.

2021-22 had the highest league scoring average since 1995. Makar didn't even lead all defensemen in scoring, nor has he ever led all defensemen in scoring. When Karlsson was 21yrs old, he led all defensemen in scoring by 25pts.

 

[TheBeard]

Tell me more. Your arguments are fascinating and riveting!

They really should have an minimum age for posters. At least over the age of 12 when some of your executive functioning skills have been developed a bit more.

Your argument is “Cale was better than Connor in a 4 game series and some say Connor is better than Wayne so therefore Cale is the best of all time.” I’m fairly certain you’re not old enough to remember anything hockey-related before 2010.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Yeah, in a Makar for Karlsson, I have no appetite for diminishing any part of EK, but what’s casually being overlooked here is we have a 22 year old defenseman on an ELC who is the best or second best player on a juggernaut squad.

For me, being the best, on the best team with other elite players and contending for titles is what it’s really all about and is more important than individual greatness on a mediocre team.

I agree being on a great team shouldn’t diminish anything Makar’s doing, and he’s certainly a huge part of their success and I’d say probably definitely has been their MVP this year, but it’s hard to compare it to what Karlsson managed with a roster that played like an AHL team with him off the ice. Based on eye-test, I think they look similarly impressive, but I struggle to go “well, this one’s team made the finals so that settles it for a player comparison”.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

Damn, I thought I might be overrating Makar a bit when I called him the 2nd best player in the NHL a while back, but some posters in this thread are putting me to shame.

 

[psycat]

Damn, I thought I might be overrating Makar a bit when I called him the 2nd best player in the NHL a while back, but some posters in this thread are putting me to shame.

Haha this thread is hilarious, so many people that one can just put on ignore to be found. Like I said earlier it seems the up in scoring coupled with post-covid hype has made people borderline insane, and this thread is not even close to one of the worst. Or it's just a paradigm shift from level-headed knowledgeable writers into reddit browsing hypebeasts.

 

[PatrikBerglund]

Would then-Karlsson even lead today's Avs in points? It's not a given at all. Rantanen and Mackinnon are better than any forward he ever played with.

Even if he wouldn't, having that amazing supporting cast would elevate his point totals in a big way.

He managed to go ppg on a bottom-5 team.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Karlsson carried a mediocre team, something Makar hasn't had to do.

Hard to compare the two. I think prime Karlsson was flashier, Makar is safer.

 

[PatrikBerglund]

Karlsson carried a mediocre team, something Makar hasn't had to do.

Hard to compare the two. I think prime Karlsson was flashier.

Wonder how Makar would do in Arizona, Buffalo etc.

 

[elmaco]

I think so, Makar is literally elite in everything.

 

[RedHawkDown]

It appears Makar is now the most overrated player in the league

 

[TheAngryHank]

Will look great next to seider one day.