Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[Freudian]

Makar does not play like the play @ 1:30. In the span of 15 seconds, Karlsson defends a 1on1 rush, steals the puck away, breaks the puck out and transitions through the neutral zone, shakes off a defender and gets a shot on net.

Frankly that video is a great showcase of what he looked like defensively and how he used his speed to be involved at both ends of the ice, but I never thought it was a good example of his offensive game.

Here's a video of him and Toews in the last series alone.



About his breakout ability

 

[lionsDen]

What are you talking about? They were literally a goal away against the eventual champs from the finals, how much more of a credible cup threat can you get? I'm guessing you didn't watch Ottawa during that run, because that's literally what it was. Karlsson dragging Ottawa that far, and if he dragged them to almost beating Pittsburgh, then why the hell couldn't he drag them to beating Nashville?


No, Makar does not do that. Anybody can watch him man, I'm not sure who you're trying to fool with claims like this, anybody can tune into the Avs and see that Makar does not play like that. Like at all.

Mark on from the above video is t even close to make skating wise. I’m sure you won’t agree and that’s fine

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Here's a video of him and Toews in the last series alone.



About his breakout ability

Mark on from the above video is t even close to make skating wise. I’m sure you won’t agree and that’s fine

Man, if that video is supposed to convince me that he's better than a prime Karlsson, then yeesh. Don't get me wrong, he demonstrates a high level of 1on1 defending in some clips there. Definitely impressive stuff. But do you honestly not see the difference? Do you not see how Karlsson had the puck on his stick for much more than Makar did? Makar has great offensive instincts, but he does not control the pace of the game like prime Karlsson did.

And you honestly think Makar is skating so much faster, "not even close" as you put it, in that video compared to that video of Karlsson from 2013? I'm sorry, but you need to get your eyes checked. Makar is a fast skater, but he's not even skating that fast in that video posted.

 

[Garbageyuk]

Very clearly, yes.

 

[ACLEVERNAME]

No.

It's like trying to say 2022 somehow surpassed 2012. The latter would not exist without the former. No matter the 'progression' from 12 to 22 it is and will always be and "offshoot" of what sprang it.

"Is the leaf greater than the branch?"

Terrible thread.

 

[The Expert]

Never change hfboards.

 

[Deen]

Makar is generational imo. Hope he stays healthy. Byram is going to rip it up too.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

What specifically does Makar not do because that infamous Carolina clip shows him hopping into the play a lot and making routine breakout passes mixed in with a few dstops

The biggest advantage Karlsson has in this conversation and vs. other defensemen is a decade worth of dedicated video editors

 

[Raym11]

Yes, but Karlsson has some of the craziest carry jobs ever from a defenceman in the cap era.

 

[Freudian]

Man, if that video is supposed to convince me that he's better than a prime Karlsson, then yeesh. Don't get me wrong, he demonstrates a high level of 1on1 defending in some clips there. Definitely impressive stuff. But do you honestly not see the difference? Do you not see how Karlsson had the puck on his stick for much more than Makar did? Makar has great offensive instincts, but he does not control the pace of the game like prime Karlsson did.

And you honestly think Makar is skating so much faster, "not even close" as you put it, in that video compared to that video of Karlsson from 2013? I'm sorry, but you need to get your eyes checked. Makar is a fast skater, but he's not even skating that fast in that video posted.

I don't expect anyone to ever convince you of that. You are on a mission.

 

[Paper]

I'd also take a lot of these awards with a grain of salt. Crosby, for example, won the Lindsay in 12-13 with 15 goals and missed a quarter of the season. And as someone else has stated, these awards are heavily slanted towards forwards (and to a lesser extent goalies).

Alternatively, Crosby missed a quarter of the season and finished one point behind second, four points behind first. 1.56 point per game when the next two highest are 1.25 point per game and 1.19.

This year McDavid finished with 1.54 point per game when the next highest were 1.47 (Kuch missing half the season), 1.45 and 1.44.

 

[Golden_Jet]

We're talking about what actually happened, not the alternate timeline where Karlsson and the Senators beat the doors off the injured Nashville Predators after they managed to get by the Penguins.

Makar was drafted to a 48 point regular season team and is now in the finals while on still on his ELC and is firmly the best or second best player on that team. There's no penalty for being a great player on a great team.

Lmao, ya the Sens weren’t injured at all, Karlsson gets ankle surgery, and cadaver parts put in, McCarthur, Crosby left Methot finger hanging on by the skin only, at the end of the season. Yet they still soldiered on.
Speaking of eye tests, I watched EK65 30 times a year LIVE, not on the TV.

 

[cowboy82nd]

Prime Karlsson finished top 5 in scoring. So what is prime Makar, a perennial Art Ross contender?

So, does that make him the best player in the league?

 

[The Macho King]

Sens fans are coming out of the woodwork for this, but I take Makar every f***ing day without thinking twice.

 

[psycat]

Never change hfboards.

But it has changed in the last months, used to be quite good(mostly level-headed people and the odd known troll or megahomer) with some questionable threads like this one but now they are the norm and people actually stand behind them. Wen't from a regular internet message boards to some ridiculous level of whathaveyoudoneformelately and so on.

It started in good faith, in optimistic fashion, I think trying to find positives to take from scoring being up(even if the obscure trivia "record" hunting wen't to the extremes) but then it kinda flipped all over with more and more ridiculous claims and threads by the day.

 

[Slurpeelover27]

Ross Colton was drafted to a Tampa team that finished 5th in the Atlantic and now could be a three-time Stanley cup champ on an ELC.

EXACTLY! Great argument why winning Cups is overrated by many. It definitely means something, but hockey is the ultimate team sport. So many amazing players have never won the cup. Is Ross Colton better than MacDavid or Marcel Dionne?

The eye test is the best gauge of a player and my eyes see without a doubt a player who will end up being at least very close to the GOAT when his career is over.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

That seems like a weird example given that Crosby's stats are stagnant since 2015-16. Where is this increase is "league wide scoring" in Crosby's stats?

Year	GP	Pts	P/GP
2015-16	80​	85​	1.06​
2016-17	75​	89​	1.19​
2017-18	82​	89​	1.09​
2018-19	79​	100​	1.27​
2019-20	41​	47​	1.15​
2020-21	55​	62​	1.13​
2022-22	69​	84​	1.22​

I think you are conflating "league wide scoring trends" and a career year. Karlsson had 2-3 great years. Miller just had one great year.

Are you serious? The increase in league wide scoring is right there, look at Crosby going from averaging 1.11 pts per game in the first three seasons to 1.19 per game ages 31-34.

Now, individuals may have tons of reasons why their scoring goes up and down between seasons, but you still probably brought a pretty good individual example with Crosby.

A better way to look at a trend however is looking at a larger sample size:

2015-16: 5 80 pt scorers; 1 100 pt scorer
2016-17: 7 80 pt scorers; 1 100 pt scorer
2017-18: 21 80 pt scorers; 3 100 pt scorers
2018-19: 28 80 pt scorers; 6 100 pt scorers
2019-20 (covid): 9 80 pt scorers; 1 100 pt scorer
2020-21 (covid): 2 80 pt scorers; 1 100 pt scorer
2021-22: 34 80 pt scorers; 8 100 pt scorers

 

[tacogeoff]

The biggest advantage Karlsson has in this conversation and vs. other defensemen is a decade worth of dedicated video editors

Primes

Ek
Makar








Doughty

 

[RickyLafleur]

So, does that make him the best player in the league?

No, but he was unquestionably a top 3 player in the entire league at the time. If he was on any other team other than Ottawa he would have a lot more respect on these boards, but what you see now is a broken down version of EK65 which skews perceptions on just how otherworldly he was pre-injury. I wouldn't be surprised that in another 5 years we have another Makar type player who will get even more praise because he will be the new shiny toy that everyone loves for a few years until the next big thing comes along.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

Sens fans are coming out of the woodwork for this, but I take Makar every f***ing day without thinking twice.

Sens hater here - Karlsson was better. First time in a long time where I thought a defenceman should win the Hart. If Makar suffers some injuries and it really derails his career in his prime, I hope people don't give him the Karlsson treatment too.

 

[cowboy82nd]

No, but he was unquestionably a top 3 player in the entire league at the time. If he was on any other team other than Ottawa he would have a lot more respect on these boards, but what you see now is a broken down version of EK65 which skews perceptions on just how otherworldly he was pre-injury. I wouldn't be surprised that in another 5 years we have another Makar type player who will get even more praise because he will be the new shiny toy that everyone loves for a few years until the next big thing comes along.

I never said he wasn't a top 3 player in the league. I only objected when he was called "the best player in the league". To me, he was never the best player in the game. One of the best, yes, but not the best.

 

[Slurpeelover27]

Jesus, these boards.

You are entitled to your opinion. Makar just dominated the series where he played with MacDavid, Draisaitl and Mackinnon who were all great. Many people today believe MacDavid is better than Gretzky and Gretzky said Makar was the best player in every single game of the series.

Not just 1 game. An entire series that JUST happened where Makar > MacDavid > Gretzky.

Doesn't mean he is the best ever, but he certainly could be.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

You are entitled to your opinion. Makar just dominated the series where he played with MacDavid, Draisaitl and Mackinnon who were all great. Many people today believe MacDavid is better than Gretzky and Gretzky said Makar was the best player in every single game of the series.

Not just 1 game. An entire series that JUST happened where Makar > MacDavid > Gretzky.

Doesn't mean he is the best ever, but he certainly could be.

*Looks at username*
*Looks at avatar*

hmmm interesting

 

[GreenLine]

Defensively? Absolutely. Not even close

Offensively? Not at all, and that's fine.

Overall I take Makar over peak Karlsson.

 

[TheBeard]

You are entitled to your opinion. Makar just dominated the series where he played with MacDavid, Draisaitl and Mackinnon who were all great. Many people today believe MacDavid is better than Gretzky and Gretzky said Makar was the best player in every single game of the series.

Not just 1 game. An entire series that JUST happened where Makar > MacDavid > Gretzky.

Doesn't mean he is the best ever, but he certainly could be.

WHy stop there? I believe Makar's skating can cure cancer and that if he works on his defense game he could be Jesus.