Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[Eltuna]

Ahhh I remember when they were saying similiar things about Mike Green in 2009

I can assure you they were not. No one was saying that Green could become a Bourque or Lidstrom level player.

 

[Laphroaig]

Erik Karlsson

There were lots of media debating the top 3 at the time, some had EK, some had OV, and Crosby as the other. It was a Hockey News issue on the front page, at one time as well. Lead the league in assists as well one year.
2 Norris and twice runnerup looks pretty good as well.
5 points short of leading league in points one year.

Karlsson's peers never voted him the best player in the league and I believe their opinion holds a lot more weight than the Hockey News.

 

[Video Nasty]

Ahhh I remember when they were saying similiar things about Mike Green in 2009

A few people might have went overboard with Green, but most were merely gushing because a defensemen potted 30 goals for the first time in 16 years and joined a very small list of D-men not named Orr, Potvin, Coffey, and Bourque to score 30 and did so in a 5.8 GPG scoring environment.

As for Makar, it’s still very early, but everything he is doing is adding major points. If he can nab a Cup and a Conn Smythe by the end of season 3 to go with at least 2 Norris Runner Ups, he’s well on his way.

 

[triggrman]

Sounds about right. Josi is the best atm because Nashville kinda sucks.

Meh, we finished bad but we did have 2 top 10 goal scorers, a Vezina finalist goalie as well as Josi, but Josi isn't the best defenseman in the league, Makar is, Josi just had the best season overall.

 

[TheBeard]

I can assure you they were not. No one was saying that Green could become a Bourque or Lidstrom level player.

I remember the talk of Green revolutionizing the position. It didn't last long after that year.

 

[guzzy]

2 Norris and Twice runner up, and didn’t last long?

That's correct. He had 7 seasons where he was "dominant". 11-12 through 17-18 where he played 492 games and scored 447 points. 0.91ppg across that time and only one season at 1.0 ppg. It also took him 2 years of playing to become dominant.

Makar has been dominant for three seasons now....his first three seasons. 1.01 ppg across his first 178 games.

Karlsson was 0.69 ppg across his first 3 seasons (216 games vs 178 for Makar). Ya, Makar is the more dominant player already. None of this accounts for his defensive abilities. He is already vastly superior to Karlsson in that category and will only get better as he matures. Karlsson was never actually good at defence.

Makar already has his first Norris ( or will have on June 23) with a runner up last year, in his third full year. Not even in his prime yet.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

My conclusion is anybody who is digging into numbers to talk about why Makar is special

But no one is disputing that Makar is "special". They're disputing whether he surpassed Erik Karlsson right now. Career achievement wise- no, Makar hasn't hit that standard yet, nor has he come close to Karlsson's peak (as short as it was).

 

[YukonCornelius]

Man, recency bias is overwhelming on this forum, but of course it makes sense since many of you are so young (even given that Karlsson's prime wasn't even that long ago). As others have pointed out, Karlsson was the most dominant player in the NHL at his peak and almost single-handedly took his team to the cusp of the Finals. The myth that he couldn't/can't play D is tripe. Also, as amazing as Makar is -- and he is undeniably incredible -- he arguably is not even better than Fox right now, who is also jaw-droppingly amazing. So chill out.

Holy hyperbole.

 

[TheBeard]

Holy hyperbole.

It’s really not and I’m sorry you’ve only been watching hockey for 5 years (PS I’m a sharks fan and I absolutely hate Karlsson).

 

[YukonCornelius]

It’s really not and I’m sorry you’ve only been watching hockey for 5 years (PS I’m a sharks fan and I absolutely hate Karlsson).

Fantastic offensive skill, but his defensive play was vastly overrated. But sure, I guess that means I’ve only been watching hockey for 5 years

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Fantastic offensive skill, but his defensive play was vastly overrated. But sure, I guess that means I’ve only been watching hockey for 5 years

His defensive play was underrated if anything. I've never seen a player in my life who faced more scrutiny than Karlsson, he had a following of people who would literally wait for him to make a mistake, and then post the clip over and over again in an attempt to show how "bad" he was defensively.



If Karlsson had a crucial misplay like Makar here, in a Game 5 where they were about to advance to the next round, there would've been 3 threads on the main board instantly about how trash Karlsson is defensively, and how he does more harm than good to Ottawa.

 

[TheBeard]

Fantastic offensive skill, but his defensive play was vastly overrated. But sure, I guess that means I’ve only been watching hockey for 5 years

Doesn’t mean he wasn’t the most dominant player in the game at the time.

 

[Stephen]

But no one is disputing that Makar is "special". They're disputing whether he surpassed Erik Karlsson right now. Career achievement wise- no, Makar hasn't hit that standard yet, nor has he come close to Karlsson's peak (as short as it was).

But no one is disputing that Makar is "special". They're disputing whether he surpassed Erik Karlsson right now. Career achievement wise- no, Makar hasn't hit that standard yet, nor has he come close to Karlsson's peak (as short as it was).

I’m disputing the notion that Cale Makar is even chasing Erik Karlsson at this point. They’re different players in different situations and we shouldn’t be evaluating Makar with some kind of Karlsson checklist like that’s the benchmark.

Makar is in his third year and has already tied Karlsson for career playoff points in about 2/3 of his games played totals. He’s pursuing a championship which was never a realistic possibility for EK. He’s already mixing in Doughty and Hedman level team accomplishments.

Individually, Makar is likely to have a Norris this year and I would say he probably deserved one last year too so the trophy case is going to fill up fast.

But again, it actually just comes down to the way Makar pops out as the best player on a juggernaut team.

 

[Golden_Jet]

. He’s pursuing a championship which was never a realistic possibility for EK.

Lol, goal from cup final in double OT, likely beat Nashville, if they get that goal he also likely wins Conn Smythe. Did you just start watching hockey recently.

 

[YukonCornelius]

Doesn’t mean he wasn’t the most dominant player in the game at the time.

Weird, how many times did he win the Hart or Lindsay?

 

[TheBeard]

we shouldn’t be evaluating Makar with some kind of Karlsson checklist like that’s the benchmark.

The thread is literally about comparing Makar and Karlsson.

 

[TheBeard]

Weird, how many times did he win the Hart or Lindsay?

Well considering only one D has won the Hart in the last 50 years and no D has won the Lindsay in the past 48, I don't really know if that is indicative of squat.

 

[WhatWhat]

Karlsson walked so Makar could run. Makar has a lot to offer all round, but offensively he is something that is in my opinion not comparable to anything we've seen in a long while. This is coming from someone who argued for Heiskanen > Makar in the early stages.

Cale is a cut above

 

[Tonneau]

Weird, how many times did he win the Hart or Lindsay?

Karlsson didn't win awards massively biased in favour of forwards and, to a much lesser extent, goaltenders. Shocking.

 

[Face Of Bear]

Makar is what everyone thought Karlsson was (but wasn't)

 

[YukonCornelius]

Well considering only one D has won the Hart in the last 50 years and no D has won the Lindsay in the past 48, I don't really know if that is indicative of squat.

I’m not the one who said he was the most dominant player in the league for years. You’d think if that were true, he’d have won either of those awards at least once.

I also never said he wasn’t a great player in his prime; but calling him the most dominant during that time is gross exaggeration.

(And FWIW: Pronger won the Hart in 2000).

 

[ziggyjoe212]

It's tough to say. EK was the heart and soul of that franchise. He almost single handedly carried them to an ECF. He never played with anyone remotely close to his skill level on Ottawa. His best teammate was..... a past his prime Jason Spezza.

Makar plays on a team absolutely stacked with elite talent. He isn't even the best player on his team.

 

[Samsquanch]

I mean the question was a prime Erik Karlsson. Karlsson had a very short 4-5 year prime.

And I mean in all fairness, having a prime/peak that lasts 4-5 years consecutively - its really not all that short or noteworthy. Its a longer peak than many of the greats had. And for the others that lasted longer at peak form - most of them never had even close to the same impact that Karlsson at did his very best.

If Karlsson had been forced to retire after the 2017 playoffs due to injuries he would have become an instant hockey LEGEND. A story for all time. Much like Orr and Bossy, who both also had their careers cut short.

People dont realize just how badly Karlssons career was trampled down by numerous different lower body injuries - which continue to this day.

Its the fact that hes still actively playing, and playing piss poorly because hes now doing it without his greatest weapon anymore (his legs and feet) - and making 11m per (and traded for a godly package lol) - and yeah, his luster has dulled considerably in the eyes of all of us.

 

[MikeK]

He's had a great start to his career but he's also been fortunate enough to be playing on a stacked team. EK played on a team far below that of COL. Karlsson made chicken salad out of chicken shit.

 

[TheBeard]

I’m not the one who said he was the most dominant player in the league for years. You’d think if that were true, he’d have won either of those awards at least once.

I also never said he wasn’t a great player in his prime; but calling him the most dominant during that time is gross exaggeration.

(And FWIW: Pronger won the Hart in 2000).

Yeah. Pronger is the only one since Orr in 72. Also, the argument was at his peak he was the most dominant player in the NHL, not he was the most dominant for years. I'd also take a lot of these awards with a grain of salt. Crosby, for example, won the Lindsay in 12-13 with 15 goals and missed a quarter of the season. And as someone else has stated, these awards are heavily slanted towards forwards (and to a lesser extent goalies).