Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[Golden_Jet]

Prime Karlsson was a multiple Norris winner with no other D really even coming close to his gaudy offensive numbers. And that was on a team with not a whole lot of supporting talent. And he carried that team into the playoffs and onto lengthy runs anyway. Makar is great, but I think a little brake-pumping is needed here.

Yep Karlsson 2 Norris trophies and finished seconds twice.

 

[guzzy]

Individual statistical accomplishments have to account for something, right?

In Erik karlsson's prime, he was 4/5 times the leading scorer on his team (1), the leading scoring defenseman, and broke top 20 oa in League scoring 4/5 times. Makar hasn't accomplished any of this yet.

And I don't find the highlights argument persuasive. For one, I don't put much stock in the eye test, but for two- its not as if Karlsson weren't photogenically dominant as well. He was always a force when I watched him live.

(1) in this the fact that Makar plays on an elite scoring team while Karlsson did not should absolutely be taken into account

You can't compare scoring titles with Dmen. Who was the best player Karlsson played with in Ottawa? They didn't have anyone of the calibre of Mackinnon, Landeskog etc.

Prime Karlsson (which should also be mentioned......didn't last very long) wouldn't be able to hold prime Makar's jock strap. And we haven't seen prime Makar yet. He is just starting.

 

[tucker3434]

Are people on this site really this naive?

JT Miller put up more points this season than Crosby did in 15, 16, 17, 18. I guess this year's JT Miller was better offensive player than a top 5 forward all time?


So naive.

JT Miller has a career average higher than Crosby's best season? No? Not relevant.

 

[Tonneau]

Using goals alone is flawed as they rely too much on goaltending. Karlsson in 2017 got an on ice save percentage of 0.936%, Makar this year only has A 0.901% for comparison.

What you're saying is that Anderson's numbers were much better with Karlsson on the ice than with him off the ice. Whereas Colorado's goalies have a 0.901 overall and a 0.901 with Makar on the ice?

How does that help your argument exactly?

Karlsson made his goalie's numbers improve by a lot, Makar didn't make them improve at all? That's your argument in favour of Makar's defensive prowess?

 

[Golden_Jet]

Prime Karlsson (which should also be mentioned......didn't last very long) wouldn't be able to hold prime Makar's jock strap. And we haven't seen prime Makar yet. He is just starting.

2 Norris and Twice runner up, and didn’t last long?

 

[Dubi Doo]

He has surpassed Karlsson. Now on to debating him vs Lidstrom.

You're pretty much confirming you have not watched Lidstrom play. Makar has A LOT to prove before even being mentioned with the likes of Lidstrom. His peak isn't higher than Karlsson's either. How quickly some forget that Karlsson carried a much less talented Ottawa team to the finals.

 

[BlueBrunswick]

There is no doubt Makar is an unbelievable talent, but you can't say he's surpassed Prime Karlsson just yet - Makar is 23, he will be 24 in October the month the season starts. Karlsson had won two Norris trophies by 24, so if Maker wins this year and next year... maybe we can start talking about it. You can't go by offensive production because the NHL is so different today than 10 years ago. When Karlsson had 78 pts in 82 games only 3 players cracked 90 pts that year - 16 players did that this year 3 Dmen had over 85 pts. I would say Prime Karlsson was from 21 to 26... during that span he was a 4x first team AS, 4X Norris finalist with 2 wins and finish top 10 in Hart voting 2X. It's hard to say "already surpassed Karlsson in just his first 4 years" when Makar was 21 in his first year in the league and by 21 Karlsson had already won a Norris.

I think people are forgetting - Karlsson was the the Ottawa Senators... anything they did was a direct result of how well Karlsson played - as indicated in his hart votes.

 

[cowboy82nd]

Karlsson was the best player in the league at one point, Makar is not there yet.

I don't remember that.

 

[Buck Naked]

I don't remember that.

It's okay. Many of us do.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Prime Karlsson (which should also be mentioned......didn't last very long) wouldn't be able to hold prime Makar's jock strap

Prime Karlsson finished top 5 in scoring. So what is prime Makar, a perennial Art Ross contender?

 

[Tonneau]

It's okay. Many of us do.

Yep. I hated Karlsson, but god damn was he good.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Do you live under a rock by chance?

Wow an emoji… strong rebuttal.

 

[triggrman]

It's okay. Many of us do.

Didn't happen.

 

[Stephen]

Individual statistical accomplishments have to account for something, right?

In Erik karlsson's prime, he was 4/5 times the leading scorer on his team (1), the leading scoring defenseman, and broke top 20 oa in League scoring 4/5 times. Makar hasn't accomplished any of this yet.

And I don't find the highlights argument persuasive. For one, I don't put much stock in the eye test, but for two- its not as if Karlsson weren't photogenically dominant as well. He was always a force when I watched him live.

(1) in this the fact that Makar plays on an elite scoring team while Karlsson did not should absolutely be taken into account

Makar doesn’t need to hit those specific marks to be better than Erik Karlsson any more than Ray Bourque needed to surpass Paul Coffey based on scoring finishes or Stanley Cups or whatever specific metric can be gleaned from a box score or resume. (As an example). That’s not the basis for why Makar has eclipsed Karlsson.

My conclusion is anybody who is digging into numbers to talk about why Makar is special (and his numbers are spectacular) doesn’t get why he’s special.

 

[99ovr]

I'm sure it's been beaten to death already in this thread but this question cannot truly ever be answered considering Karlsson has not played on any team that has anywhere close to the current offensive firepower Colorado has. It's a shame that we didn't have an elite forward core while Karlsson was in his prime. Karlsson also placed higher in league scoring when the scoring around the league was much lower (aka, Jamie Benn winning the Art Ross in 2016 with 87 points while Karlsson had 82).

I'm not joking if 22-24 year old Karlsson played on the current Avs team he'd probably have 100-110 points and the only player that has a chance of outscoring him would be Mackinnon.

Also the narrative that Karlsson can't play defense is BS, he was actually elite from 2013, 2015-2017 but in his final year with the team in 2018 he would frequently make low effort/high risk lazy plays that would result in high danger scoring chances so that probably clouds some judgment.

All that said I do think Makar is generational. If Karlsson never got his achilles sliced he would probably be a top 5 Dman of all time.

 

[Buck Naked]

Makar doesn’t need to hit those specific marks to be better than Erik Karlsson any more than Ray Bourque needed to surpass Paul Coffey based on scoring finishes or Stanley Cups or whatever specific metric can be gleaned from a box score or resume. (As an example). That’s not the basis for why Makar has eclipsed Karlsson.

My conclusion is anybody who is digging into numbers to talk about why Makar is special (and his numbers are spectacular) doesn’t get why he’s special.

Exactly. Makar is just special because you say so. It's time everyone took Stephen's word for it.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Karlsson was significantly better. People have ridiculously short memories. The equivalent of prime Karlsson would be a 110 point season by a D nowadays. Scoring was much lower and he played with literally no one on Ottawa. He was the entire team - every team focused their game around him, and he still completely dominated every second he was on the ice. Makar is incredible and probably the best defenseman in the league but he is one part of a dominant Avs team with a great defensive partner in Toews along with Mackinnon, Rantanen etc. Karlsson was doing it by himself.

 

[Stephen]

Exactly. Makar is just special because you say so. It's time everyone took Stephen's word for it.

You could always see it for yourself, but if the box score is your favourite way to enjoy the game, it is what it is.

 

[Golden_Jet]

You could always see it for yourself, but if the box score is your favourite way to enjoy the game, it is what it is.

Lol , says the poster using box scores for their argument.

 

[Freudian]

Karlsson was significantly better. People have ridiculously short memories. The equivalent of prime Karlsson would be a 110 point season by a D nowadays. Scoring was much lower and he played with literally no one on Ottawa. He was the entire team - every team focused their game around him, and he still completely dominated every second he was on the ice. Makar is incredible and probably the best defenseman in the league but he is one part of a dominant Avs team with a great defensive partner in Toews along with Mackinnon, Rantanen etc. Karlsson was doing it by himself.

If we score adjust offense and really tilt the comparison in EKs favor by both removing his rookie and sophomore year and the last two years when his production has fallen off, Makar still has the higher P/G (1.04 vs 1.02). If we include EKs two first seasons it's not even close (1.04 vs 0.92). I guess that explains the obsession with counting just EKs peak because then you can pretend everything else never happened.

When it comes to score adjusted playoff production it's an even bigger difference with 1.11 P/G for Makar and 0.88 P/G for Karlsson.

As for your prediction of a 110 point season for EK if we score adjust, it was just a wild guess on your part and the highest is a 95 point season as a 26 year old. Makars highest score adjusted pace is 92 points this year. He has three more seasons before he's 26 though.

 

[RedHawkDown]

If we score adjust offense and really tilt the comparison in EKs favor by both removing his rookie and sophomore year and the last two years when his production has fallen off, Makar still has the higher P/G (1.04 vs 1.02). If we include EKs two first seasons it's not even close (1.04 vs 0.92). I guess that explains the obsession with counting just EKs peak because then you can pretend everything else never happened.

When it comes to score adjusted playoff production it's an even bigger difference with 1.11 P/G for Makar and 0.88 P/G for Karlsson.

As for your prediction of a 110 point season for EK if we score adjust, it was just a wild guess on your part and the highest is a 95 point season as a 26 year old. Makars highest score adjusted pace is 92 points this year. He has three more seasons before he's 26 though.

I mean the question was a prime Erik Karlsson. Karlsson had a very short 4-5 year prime.

Watching the two players I will maintain it is Karlsson by a fair margin . I meant Karlsson with Makar’s supporting cast for the 110pt point.

 

[Romang67]

You're right, Ottawa sucked in 2017 and their goaltending was horrible. EK single-handedly brought them to the conference finals by dent of his godly skills and flowing blonde hair. What's more, I'm sure his grand total of 2 goals in 3 series got them to Game 7 OT of the ECF.

I vehemently agree that hockey is only a team sport when Cale Makar's achievements are being accounted for, and ceases to be a team sport when EK's very brief prime is involved.

I believe Lafleurs Guy said it best.

Sorry, I mistook you for someone who might be a serious poster. My mistake.

Have a nice night.

 

[GM Armchair]

Prime Karlsson was a different animal. Just mind blowing good.

 

[AD1066]

Not yet. Maybe not ever. Makar plays in a higher-scoring league on a much better team.

(I'd still kill to have a player like Makar, though.)

 

[Stephen]

Lol , says the poster using box scores for their argument.

I haven’t made a single argument for Makar being better than Karlsson based on any statistical reference.