Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[lionsDen]

Whatever he is, it’s pretty damn good

 

[cowboy82nd]

It's okay. Many of us do.

Really?? The poster I quoted said the best. Not one of the best or arguably the best but the best player in the game. I beg to differ. He was only a point per game player once in his career. He has never lead the league in scoring and we all know he is NOT the best defenseman in the league (but better than some say). So, tell me when he was the BEST in the NHL. I would like to know.

 

[SuperScript29]

Karlsson was hardly Orr out there. Makar is already generational. He should have two Norris trophies after this season if not for an injury had Fox win it.

Do you understand what generational players mean? Makar has a great potential, but as it stands right now, he's not generational. All he has is one Calder to his name. You needs a serious list of serious hardware to make such claims.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Really?? The poster I quoted said the best. Not one of the best or arguably the best but the best player in the game. I beg to differ. He was only a point per game player once in his career. He has never lead the league in scoring and we all know he is NOT the best defenseman in the league (but better than some say). So, tell me when he was the BEST in the NHL. I would like to know.

There were lots of media debating the top 3 at the time, some had EK, some had OV, and Crosby as the other. It was a Hockey News issue on the front page, at one time as well. Lead the league in assists as well one year.
2 Norris and twice runnerup looks pretty good as well.
5 points short of leading league in points one year.

 

[klozge]

Makar doesn’t need to hit those specific marks to be better than Erik Karlsson any more than Ray Bourque needed to surpass Paul Coffey based on scoring finishes or Stanley Cups or whatever specific metric can be gleaned from a box score or resume. (As an example). That’s not the basis for why Makar has eclipsed Karlsson.

My conclusion is anybody who is digging into numbers to talk about why Makar is special (and his numbers are spectacular) doesn’t get why he’s special.

Extremely well said.

 

[TheBeard]

No one is aguing that Makar isn't special, but a lot of people here are obviously young or have very short memories if they can't remember just how dominant EK65 was in his prime.

And anyone making Makar comparisions to Bourque and/or Lidstrom are just simply too young or unknowledgable abut their games to warrant a credible viewpoint (no offense).

I don't remember that.

It's arguable that he was for a 4 year stretch

 

[TheBeard]

I think he’s the only player in the league that can actually challenge McDavid for best in the league. I also think he will end up in the Bourque, Lidstrom, Leetch tier of dman and will be considered the best of the cap era generation when it’s all said and done. You can just see his talent and potential.

Ahhh I remember when they were saying similiar things about Mike Green in 2009

 

[x Tame Impala]

I don’t care about the stats comparisons. This is a new decade/generation of hockey. Makar skates as well as he thinks the game. He’s so fast and so effective, I’ve never seen that before. He’s got more to accomplish before he has a better career than EK but it’s safe to say he’s already more talented IMHO. He’s freaking incredible all over the ice.

 

[x Tame Impala]

It's okay. Many of us do.

Puhlease

He wasn’t the best in 2015-16, Kane was and Crosby was 2nd

 

[Cursed Lemon]

We've finally reached the point where recency bias works against players who played like six years ago, what a time

 

[Stephen]

No one is aguing that Makar isn't special, but a lot of people here are obviously young or have very short memories if they can't remember just how dominant EK65 was in his prime.

And anyone making Makar comparisions to Bourque and/or Lidstrom are just simply too young or unknowledgable abut their games to warrant a credible viewpoint (no offense).


It's arguable that he was for a 4 year stretch

Hesitating to give the edge to Makar over Karlsson is based on a very route and conservative way of looking at things, on the other hand.

It’s safe to say that Makar is plotting his own very unique career path in competing in a Stanley Cup finals on his ELC and possibly being the best player on a powerhouse. Karlsson’s situation was very different. So we don’t need to bring out the clipboard and check off “things that Karlsson did that Makar has yet to do” in order to ascertain because in a lot of ways they aren’t running the same kind of race.

 

[Mez]

Depends on how you frame your argument. Lots of variable that can point to either guy. I'll say its arguable lol.

 

[Voight]

The Karlsson Fan Boys used to throw the "he plays on a good team!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" excuse when people told them Doughty was better so no surprise they're using the same playbook with Makar.

 

[Romang67]

The Karlsson Fan Boys used to throw the "he plays on a good team!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" excuse when people told them Doughty was better so no surprise they're using the same playbook with Makar.

Did the people arguing that Doughty was better point to the LAK Stanley Cup wins as evidence that Doughty was better? Because if so, team success was no less a dumb argument in around 2012-2014 than it is now.

 

[Voight]

Did the people arguing that Doughty was better point to the LAK Stanley Cup wins as evidence that Doughty was better? Because if so, team success was no less a dumb argument in around 2012-2014 than it is now.

Given he was the #1D and arguable best (at worst, 2nd best) player on a team that went SC-WCF-SC and should have won the Smythe in 2014, yes it was brought up. But Doughty continued to be a dominant player even after his team fell off.

 

[Baaaaaaaaaaaaah]

I’m an old guy that has watched hockey since the 70’s, and consider the Avs my mortal enemy. And I feel Makar is in a class only occupied by Lidstrom and Orr.

 

[24 others]

Here is Karlsson at his peak:



He is everywhere, doing everything (the title of the video is very appropriate). I don't get to see Makar enough to make a judgment but I am just posting this to remind everyone what it means to "surpass prime Karlsson".

 

[RickyLafleur]

I don’t care about the stats comparisons. This is a new decade/generation of hockey. Makar skates as well as he thinks the game. He’s so fast and so effective, I’ve never seen that before. He’s got more to accomplish before he has a better career than EK but it’s safe to say he’s already more talented IMHO. He’s freaking incredible all over the ice.

More talented or he has a significantly more talented team?

 

[abo9]

We've finally reached the point where recency bias works against players who played like six years ago, what a time

To be fair, a case could be made for Makar as an "overall" player. According to a lot of Avs fans, he's being better than MacKinnon this season, and Mack is widely recognized as one of the better players in the league.

Prime EK's has the edge in offensive production, but Makar is not so far behind that he can't make it up by being better than prime EK defensively - though it's much harder to show using the available data.

But reading that EK played on a stacked team with Jonathan Cheechoo, Alex Kovalev and Chris Phillips makes this thread worth reading haha

 

[Romang67]

Given he was the #1D and arguable best (at worst, 2nd best) player on a team that went SC-WCF-SC and should have won the Smythe in 2014, yes it was brought up. But Doughty continued to be a dominant player even after his team fell off.

So was the argument that Doughty was better because of his team success, or that Doughty was better regardless of team success?

Given that the OP talks primarily about Karlsson's lack of playoff success when arguing that Makar is better, it seems appropriate to bring up that the current Avs roster are significantly better than any Senators roster since the Pizza line, no?

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Dismissing the greatness of Makar because the Avs are good is complete bs. Should the same standard be used for every single player that played on a contender?

 

[TheRarestDangles]

Simply put: the Avs are too good of a team for Makar to be considered a great defenseman. The best defensemen in NHL history exclusively played for poor/underachieving teams.

 

[x Tame Impala]

More talented or he has a significantly more talented team?

Makar has more talent. I’m telling you the way this kid moves around the ice, the decision making he has, the elite skills on offense and defense, he does everything very very well. Everything. He’s the most talented Dman I’ve ever seen.

The team strength argument has always been a whiny red herring.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Simply put: the Avs are too good of a team for Makar to be considered a great defenseman. The best defensemen in NHL history exclusively played for poor/underachieving teams.

Sounds about right. Josi is the best atm because Nashville kinda sucks.

 

[Stephen]

More talented or he has a significantly more talented team?

Makar pops out on a cup finalist team in the way that Karlsson popped out on the Ottawa Senators.