Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[Stephen]

With all due respect, your “watch the YouTube highlights” arguments aren’t convincing.

I think Makar is awesome. He’s something special. But it’s going overboard to say he’s already better than prime Karlsson.

I believe he can get there. He’s great. But people are getting ahead of themselves. Let’s give him a couple of years before crowning him.

Don't have a dog in this race other than to recognize greatness when I see it. Don't have a rooting interest in Cale Makar or the Avalanche, don't have anything against Erik Karlsson and always enjoyed his dominant play style.

Just don't see the need to take a conservative wait and see approach on this one.

 

[Stephen]

Well, I guess we watched a different series then.

I think Makar’s defensive game is a huge reason the Avs won. How many times did McDavid even beat him 1v1? Makar was making winning plays on the penalty kill consistently.

Makar’s defence is insanely underrated on this board. He’s excellent defensively. I think he resembles Bourque a lot more than Karlsson.

I think the logic usually follows that if you're especially good at a) obviously you are weak at b).

 

[Rengorlex]

Yeah I think Makar is better. Defensively he does have some weaknesses in front of the net and sometimes when pressured heavily physically. But I'd say it's not much compared to the struggles Karlsson had defensively. Easily the best defenceman in the game today.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

No, no. Cale Makar is straight up better than Erik Karlsson. Turn on your TV, watch highlights on YouTube and just enjoy the action.

Individual statistical accomplishments have to account for something, right?

In Erik karlsson's prime, he was 4/5 times the leading scorer on his team (1), the leading scoring defenseman, and broke top 20 oa in League scoring 4/5 times. Makar hasn't accomplished any of this yet.

And I don't find the highlights argument persuasive. For one, I don't put much stock in the eye test, but for two- its not as if Karlsson weren't photogenically dominant as well. He was always a force when I watched him live.

(1) in this the fact that Makar plays on an elite scoring team while Karlsson did not should absolutely be taken into account

 

[SensontheRush]

Track record? He’s literally being called the best d man since Bobby Orr by a lot of hockey representatives

And the same exact thing was happening with Karlsson.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Yeah I think Makar is better. Defensively he does have some weaknesses in front of the net and sometimes when pressured heavily physically. But I'd say it's not much compared to the struggles Karlsson had defensively. Easily the best defenceman in the game today.

Agree, I think he's the best skating defensemen I've ever seen and is actually quite good defensively. The McDavid of defensemen if you will, and possibly the first generational dman in a long time.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

With all due respect, your “watch the YouTube highlights” arguments aren’t convincing.

I think Makar is awesome. He’s something special. But it’s going overboard to say he’s already better than prime Karlsson.

I believe he can get there. He’s great. But people are getting ahead of themselves. Let’s give him a couple of years before crowning him.

Karlsson was hardly Orr out there. Makar is already generational. He should have two Norris trophies after this season if not for an injury had Fox win it.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Don't have a dog in this race other than to recognize greatness when I see it. Don't have a rooting interest in Cale Makar or the Avalanche, don't have anything against Erik Karlsson and always enjoyed his dominant play style.

Just don't see the need to take a conservative wait and see approach on this one.

Okay fair enough.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Karlsson was hardly Orr out there. Makar is already generational. He should have two Norris trophies after this season if not for an injury had Fox win it.

I don’t think Karlsson’s Orr either…

 

[Buck Naked]

He had 5 points

And the argument was about Makar shutting McD down. Having 5 points means in no way shutting someone down. As previously mentioned, McDavid outscored Makar 5v5 when both on the ice in the series. He outproduced him overall though, but that's another discussion.

Karlsson was hardly Orr out there. Makar is already generational. He should have two Norris trophies after this season if not for an injury had Fox win it.

Stop it. Generational players stand out among their peers. Makar's great and the best D in the league, but before he's got more than a hypothetical Norris and a second place in the D scoring race, he's far from generational. McDavid is a generational player. Makar, so far, is basically MacKinnon in comparison.

 

[psycat]

Would then-Karlsson even lead today's Avs in points? It's not a given at all. Rantanen and Mackinnon are better than any forward he ever played with.

I mean most likely Karlsson wouldn't lead Avs in regular season scoring, it's also very possible Makar wouldn't lead the Sens of yesteryear in scoring year after year(although he probably would atleast a couple of times, hard to tell if he would lead them 5 times and end up top 5 in leaguewide scoring on those sens teams though). Very hard to tell and compare.

Thread is ridiculous by the way, Makar is close to Karlsson in terms of ability(that much is obvious) but it's just premature.

 

[Eltuna]

And the argument was about Makar shutting McD down. Having 5 points means in no way shutting someone down. As previously mentioned, McDavid outscored Makar 5v5 when both on the ice in the series. He outproduced him overall though, but that's another discussion.



Stop it. Generational players stand out among their peers. Makar's great and the best D in the league, but before he's got more than a hypothetical Norris and a second place in the D scoring race, he's far from generational. McDavid is a generational player. Makar, so far, is basically MacKinnon in comparison.

Makar did shut McDavid down though in regards to possession and scoring chances. A combination of McDavids skill and some very poor Avs goaltending resulted in some good counting stats for McDavid but he got destroyed 5 on 5. Makar actually got McDavid to have stats negative to the rest of his team in almost all advanced stats, that’s absolutely nuts considering the rest of his team.

The only series McDavid has ever played that’s on the same level was the Ducks series back when he was 20. Everyone else has struggled mightily against him.

Makar has a great argument for shutting McDavid down in a playoff series greater than anyone ever has. There is no way you watched the series if you don’t think he played him really well. People are way too binary in regards to defence, if a player gets a point he played well, if he’s doesn’t he didn’t. For example McDavid had three points in game one but struggled to even gain the Avs zone, he was played extremely well but got the bounces and capitalized on the few chances he was on the ice for.

Before the playoffs I think Makar was in a group with a few others that could be argued as the second best player in the world. But I’m comfortable now saying he’s number 2, and I think it will be a unanimous opinion soon. Not by a huge margin but a clear margin. He just played in a series with Mackinnon, McDavid, Drai, Rantanen, etc and was the clear best player on the ice.

 

[haulinbass]

I don't care if there is a debate to be had about Makar vs Karlssons offensive ability. Makar is drastically better on the defensive side. Whatever the offensive difference is, even if it's in Karlssons favor, isn't enough to make up for the rest of Makars game. No debate for me here, I take Makar easily. The kid is that good, it's unbelievable.

 

[Eltuna]

As for the Karlsson debate I think it’s only a matter of time before Makar is considered better. A few things he has already accomplished:

- Second highest playoff ppg ever for a dman and the third fastest ever to 50 points. Only being beaten by Leetch and Orr.

- Third highest regular season ppg of all time only bettered by Orr and Coffey. Also the fourth fastest player to 150 career points if ppg is not your thing.

- A Hobey Baker, followed by a Calder, followed by (at worst) two Norris runner up finishes in his last 4 seasons.

As well as about half a dozen obscure records that are arbitrary and not really worth going into detail on, but the fact he’s continually breaking them is showcasing his talent.

I think he’s the only player in the league that can actually challenge McDavid for best in the league. I also think he will end up in the Bourque, Lidstrom, Leetch tier of dman and will be considered the best of the cap era generation when it’s all said and done. You can just see his talent and potential.

 

[Samsquanch]

I don't care if there is a debate to be had about Makar vs Karlssons offensive ability. Makar is drastically better on the defensive side. Whatever the offensive difference is, even if it's in Karlssons favor, isn't enough to make up for the rest of Makars game. No debate for me here, I take Makar easily. The kid is that good, it's unbelievable.

Karlsson played an extra min of TOI over Makar in the 2017 playoffs, and was on the ice for 37% of Ottawa's goals against that year. Also led the team in scoring...

Makar has been on the ice for 52% of Colorado's.

But whatever you say, no debate here right.....

 

[haulinbass]

Karlsson played an extra min of TOI over Makar in the 2017 playoffs, and was on the ice for 37% of Ottawa's goals against that year. Also led the team in scoring...

Makar has been on the ice for 52% of Colorado's.

But whatever you say.

Yes, that statistic you have proves everything. You have now changed my mind.

No other factors or circumstances that should be considered with that statistic either I'm assuming? It's just that cut and dry? Of course it is, thanks for the input.

 

[Eltuna]

Karlsson played an extra min of TOI over Makar in the 2017 playoffs, and was on the ice for 37% of Ottawa's goals against that year. Also led the team in scoring...

Makar has been on the ice for 52% of Colorado's.

But whatever you say, no debate here right.....

Using goals alone is flawed as they rely too much on goaltending. Karlsson in 2017 got an on ice save percentage of 0.936%, Makar this year only has A 0.901% for comparison.

If you look at possession metrics though which is a lot less luck dependent Karlsson was still very good. Makar this year is pretty much better across the board but there’s a lot of factors that could influence that like teammates and quality of competition. No doubt Makar is in a better position to succeed.

Even if Makar is better right now no one should be taking anything away from that 2017 run from Karlsson, he was fantastic that year.

 

[tsujimoto74]

Prime Karlsson was a multiple Norris winner with no other D really even coming close to his gaudy offensive numbers. And that was on a team with not a whole lot of supporting talent. And he carried that team into the playoffs and onto lengthy runs anyway. Makar is great, but I think a little brake-pumping is needed here.

 

[Unspecified]

Individual statistical accomplishments have to account for something, right?

In Erik karlsson's prime, he was 4/5 times the leading scorer on his team (1), the leading scoring defenseman, and broke top 20 oa in League scoring 4/5 times. Makar hasn't accomplished any of this yet.

And I don't find the highlights argument persuasive. For one, I don't put much stock in the eye test, but for two- its not as if Karlsson weren't photogenically dominant as well. He was always a force when I watched him live.

(1) in this the fact that Makar plays on an elite scoring team while Karlsson did not should absolutely be taken into account

Karlsson won his Norris trophies due to his point totals not by his defense. The NHL and the voters these days forget that a defenseman needs to have a two-way game to be a worthy candidate for the Norris. Offensive stats are pretty on the eyes so they largely get the votes so these individual accolades you mentioned are not really indicative on what a defenseman should be when it comes to deciding a winner.

 

[umma gumma]

How is one horrible defensively if they do not get scored on in a best-on-best tournament while playing big minutes? It makes no sense at all.

 

[RickyLafleur]

I think he has. Kid is unreal. And if he gets a cup this year, I think it's no question that Makar has exceeded a prime Karlsson in much less time. Makar has already had more playoff success in his first 4 years than Karlsson has had over his entire playoff career. Mind you, surprisingly Karlsson has only played in the post season 6 times in his 13 year career. But also Karlsson has played on some stacked Ottawa rosters too.

Why are you surprised that Karlsson only played in the playoffs 6 times? He was on a rebuilding team for half of his career and the focal point of our offense and every team had to game plan against him. Not sure why you think any of those Ottawa teams were stacked because Karlsson lead the team in scoring nearly every single year that he was on the team. That being said, Makar is amazing and a top 5 asset in the league and will likely surpass Karlsson by the time his career is over, provided he doesn't suffer any major injuries.

 

[triggrman]

How is one horrible defensively if they do not get scored on in a best-on-best tournament while playing big minutes? It makes no sense at all.

Very small sample size.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Makars regular season average P/G is higher than Karlssons best season P/G.
Makars playoff average P/G is higher than Karlssons best post-season P/G.

In the cap era Makar has 1.01 P/G in the regular season (100+ GP). The next two with the highest P/G (Hughes and Fox with 0.80) P/G.
In the cap era Makar has 1.08 P/G in the postseason (30+ GP). The next highest is Pronger with 0.80 P/G. (Fox has higher with 20 games played).

He's also better defensively than Karlsson ever was.

Are people on this site really this naive?

JT Miller put up more points this season than Crosby did in 15, 16, 17, 18. I guess this year's JT Miller was better offensive player than a top 5 forward all time?


So naive.

 

[umma gumma]

Very small sample size.

If you're horrible defensively playing against the best players in the world I'm not sure that really matters. Any other dman do it?

 

[Voight]

Which frankly… doesn’t make sense at this point. He hasn’t demonstrated that he’s in EK’s class much less Orr’s. He’s having a great playoff and looks awesome… but they’re getting ahead of themselves.

Do you live under a rock by chance?