Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[Stephen]

Lol, goal from cup final in double OT, likely beat Nashville, if they get that goal he also likely wins Conn Smythe. Did you just start watching hockey recently.

Ottawa wasn’t winning a cup that year.

 

[Slurpeelover27]

Individual statistical accomplishments have to account for something, right?

In Erik karlsson's prime, he was 4/5 times the leading scorer on his team (1), the leading scoring defenseman, and broke top 20 oa in League scoring 4/5 times. Makar hasn't accomplished any of this yet.

And I don't find the highlights argument persuasive. For one, I don't put much stock in the eye test, but for two- its not as if Karlsson weren't photogenically dominant as well. He was always a force when I watched him live.

(1) in this the fact that Makar plays on an elite scoring team while Karlsson did not should absolutely be taken into account

I don't put much stock in the eye test is the exact opposite of how I evaluate players. Statistics of course tell you some things but you have to watch someone play to really know how well or poor that they play. A terrible player could ride shot gun with an elite player and put up points and have good metrics. If you watch Makar play it is very easy to see he is one of the best players to ever play the game. And he is getting better and better. I believe he is already the best dman in the game and could easily end up being the GOAT.

 

[HabbyGuy]

I'm not going to get into the debate about Makar vs Karlsson, only to say if I was starting a new franchise in the NHL and had to choose a player to build said team around. the list would be very short. I'd obviously choose McDavid first but after that Makar would be my pick. That's how great Makar is in my opinion.

 

[Roksta]

Alfredsson
Spezza
Fisher
Kovalev
Michalik
Karlsson
Cheechoo
Phillips
Almost certain Redden and Havlat was on the team too when Karlsson was in his prime.

So Alfredsson/Spezza and a bunch of 3rd liners and washed up players like Kovalev and Cheechoo are a stacked team now?

He finished 2nd in scoring in his second year with only 45 pts. What a bunch of superstars on that team woof

 

[hohosaregood]

If Karlsson was in his prime right now, he would just be a star compared to Makar.

 

[TheBeard]

If you watch Makar play it is very easy to see he is one of the best players to ever play the game

Jesus, these boards.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

I don't put much stock in the eye test is the exact opposite of how I evaluate players. Statistics of course tell you some things but you have to watch someone play to really know how well or poor that they play. A terrible player could ride shot gun with an elite player and put up points and have good metrics. If you watch Makar play it is very easy to see he is one of the best players to ever play the game. And he is getting better and better. I believe he is already the best dman in the game and could easily end up being the GOAT.

By the time Orr was Makar's age, he had won an Art Ross and 4 Norris trophies. And you think Makar is going to end up better?

I like Makar, but man, the claims about his game are ridiculous. Far worse than Sens fans ever were about Karlsson.

 

[Stephen]

Individual statistical accomplishments have to account for something, right?

In Erik karlsson's prime, he was 4/5 times the leading scorer on his team (1), the leading scoring defenseman, and broke top 20 oa in League scoring 4/5 times. Makar hasn't accomplished any of this yet.

And I don't find the highlights argument persuasive. For one, I don't put much stock in the eye test, but for two- its not as if Karlsson weren't photogenically dominant as well. He was always a force when I watched him live.

(1) in this the fact that Makar plays on an elite scoring team while Karlsson did not should absolutely be taken into account

My takeaway is you probably haven't put any stock into the eye test re: this player.

We're spending a lot of time talking about quantity of Norris Trophies, how Karlsson stood out on a poor team as a dominant player and the number of scoring finishes and prime length to diminish a third year player. And yet that player has already tied Karlsson in career playoff points and single season points and goals totals and probably should have had the Norris last year and likely this year.

And you'll come back about how Makar plays on a stacked team and is a Colorado product. But if you actually watched the games even on a casual basis, you'd realize Makar brings a force to the Avs transition and attack that is a unique level of dominance.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Ottawa wasn’t winning a cup that year.

Come on man, at least try to hide your dislike for the team, at least Sens fans and Avs fans admit they're biased.

Ottawa had a very good chance of beating Nashville in the finals, don't try to pretend otherwise.

 

[Stephen]

Come on man, at least try to hide your dislike for the team, at least Sens fans and Avs fans admit they're biased.

Ottawa had a very good chance of beating Nashville in the finals, don't try to pretend otherwise.

Can't have it both ways and claim Karlsson was this man alone superstar and a credible cup threat as well.

As far as bias is concerned, I really liked Karlsson as a player in his prime and haven't said one negative thing about him other than the fact that Makar is better. Neither guy is on my team and unfortunately the Leafs-Sens rivalry isn't what it used to be.

 

[shadow1]

Two of the most gifted defensemen of all time.

My vote goes to Makar, who I think has the edge defensively.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Here is Karlsson at his peak:



He is everywhere, doing everything (the title of the video is very appropriate). I don't get to see Makar enough to make a judgment but I am just posting this to remind everyone what it means to "surpass prime Karlsson".

Makar does all of that too but faster. He’s that good.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Can't have it both ways and claim Karlsson was this man alone superstar and a credible cup threat as well.

As far as bias is concerned, I really liked Karlsson as a player in his prime and haven't said one negative thing about him other than the fact that Makar is better. Neither guy is on my team and unfortunately the Leafs-Sens rivalry isn't what it used to be.

What are you talking about? They were literally a goal away against the eventual champs from the finals, how much more of a credible cup threat can you get? I'm guessing you didn't watch Ottawa during that run, because that's literally what it was. Karlsson dragging Ottawa that far, and if he dragged them to almost beating Pittsburgh, then why the hell couldn't he drag them to beating Nashville?

Makar does all of that too but faster. He’s that good.

No, Makar does not do that. Anybody can watch him man, I'm not sure who you're trying to fool with claims like this, anybody can tune into the Avs and see that Makar does not play like that. Like at all.

 

[Vukotal Recall]

Holy hyperbole.

He absolutely was. At his (relatively short) peak, he tilted the ice like no other player, even Crosby.

 

[x Tame Impala]

What are you talking about? They were literally a goal away against the eventual champs from the finals, how much more of a credible cup threat can you get? I'm guessing you didn't watch Ottawa during that run, because that's literally what it was. Karlsson dragging Ottawa that far, and if he dragged them to almost beating Pittsburgh, then why the hell couldn't he drag them to beating Nashville?


No, Makar does not do that. Anybody can watch him man, I'm not sure who you're trying to fool with claims like this, anybody can tune into the Avs and see that Makar does not play like that. Like at all.

What specifically does Makar not do because that infamous Carolina clip shows him hopping into the play a lot and making routine breakout passes mixed in with a few dstops

 

[Stephen]

What are you talking about? They were literally a goal away against the eventual champs from the finals, how much more of a credible cup threat can you get? I'm guessing you didn't watch Ottawa during that run, because that's literally what it was. Karlsson dragging Ottawa that far, and if he dragged them to almost beating Pittsburgh, then why the hell couldn't he drag them to beating Nashville?

I think what you're trying to describe is a Cinderella run which ended in the conference finals... I don't think falling 5 wins short of a Stanley Cup is all that close...

 

[Bradely]

Makar does all of that too but faster. He’s that good.

Makar is good. Really good. Karlson was good. was really good. Only difference between both...

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

I think what you're trying to describe is a Cinderella run which ended in the conference finals... I don't think falling 5 wins short of a Stanley Cup is all that close...

I really don't care what you think tbh. It's a very silly argument to make, and I'm pretty sure you know it. Again, if Karlsson carried his team to a goal away from beating Pittsburgh, then there's literally no reason he couldn't have done the same against Nashville.

 

[x Tame Impala]

I really don't care what you think tbh. It's a very silly argument to make, and I'm pretty sure you know it. Again, if Karlsson carried his team to a goal away from beating Pittsburgh, then there's literally no reason he couldn't have done the same against Nashville.

Flawed logic. Maybe PIT was the only team capable of beating 2017 Nashville. Very likely the case. They were a great team that year and if RJ doesn’t get injured I think the beat the Pens for sure.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

What specifically does Makar not do because that infamous Carolina clip shows him hopping into the play a lot and making routine breakout passes mixed in with a few dstops

Makar does not play like the play @ 1:30. In the span of 15 seconds, Karlsson defends a 1on1 rush, steals the puck away, breaks the puck out and transitions through the neutral zone, shakes off a defender and gets a shot on net.

Frankly that video is a great showcase of what he looked like defensively and how he used his speed to be involved at both ends of the ice, but I never thought it was a good example of his offensive game.

Flawed logic. Maybe PIT was the only team capable of beating 2017 Nashville. Very likely the case. They were a great team that year and if RJ doesn’t get injured I think the beat the Pens for sure.

The only flawed logic are the mental gymnastics you and your buddy are playing. RJ would be injured against the Sens too. The sad part too is that all Karlsson had to do was make the finals that year and he was winning the Conn Smythe. Nashville could've swept Ottawa and they still would've given the Conn Smythe to Karlsson.

 

[Stephen]

I really don't care what you think tbh. It's a very silly argument to make, and I'm pretty sure you know it. Again, if Karlsson carried his team to a goal away from beating Pittsburgh, then there's literally no reason he couldn't have done the same against Nashville.

We're talking about what actually happened, not the alternate timeline where Karlsson and the Senators beat the doors off the injured Nashville Predators after they managed to get by the Penguins.

Makar was drafted to a 48 point regular season team and is now in the finals while on still on his ELC and is firmly the best or second best player on that team. There's no penalty for being a great player on a great team.

 

[SillyRabbit]

Makar was drafted to a 48 point regular season team and is now in the finals while on still on his ELC and is firmly the best or second best player on that team. There's no penalty for being a great player on a great team.

What an incredibly disingenuous statement.

The very first time Makar stepped on NHL ice it was in the playoffs. His team was already good before he ever laced up a pair of skates for them.

The fact that you’re intentionally presenting misleading facts as a way to prop up your argument calls into question everything you’ve posted.

 

[TheBeard]

Makar was drafted to a 48 point regular season team and is now in the finals while on still on his ELC

Ross Colton was drafted to a Tampa team that finished 5th in the Atlantic and now could be a three-time Stanley cup champ on an ELC.

 

[Bjornar Moxnes]

I'm not going to say who's better or worse, but all I'm going to say is Karlsson's defense is severely underrated here. All of his defensive metrics suggest that he's a good defensive player. While Makar is better defensively, he's not leaps ahead, and he's never been able to completely dominate the game defensively, whereas 2017 playoffs Karlsson did. I will say Makar will probably have a mroe consistent peak.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Lol sens fans think we've forgotten how Karlsson played in his prime as if it was a million years ago like Gretzky or Howe. Makar is better, already defensively and offensively.