Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[ricky0034]

Karlsson had a year where he lead the entire league in assists and was top 5 in points

Makar was 20th in the league in points this year and 48th/68th his other years

Karlsson also lead his team by 21 points that year

Makar has never lead his team in points

 

[Pip]

So what? Makar has contributed far more offensively as well as defensively. Don't have 2017 playoff possession numbers/advanced stats, but Makar is pretty damn dominant right now in every respect. Comparing playoff seasons up until now, Cale put up 5 goals vs Karlsson's 2, and is a +11 in 14 games while Karlsson was a +13 in 19 games (which is pretty much a wash). Cale's PPG is 1.57 these playoffs vs 0.95 for EK.

In the regular season, Cale scored 7 more goals than Karlsson ever has, and topped Karlsson's career high in points with 86. It is also worth mentioning, despite it being a team statistic, that Karlsson is a -77 in +/ in his career. I mean holy God you actually think this guy was the best player/defenseman in the world? Cale's peak, by virtually every metric, is higher than Karlsson's BEST season, and Cale is only 23 years old.

Oh and by the way he's about to go to the Stanley Cup finals, and may add a hell of a lot of hardware far exceeding anything EK has even come close to.

It’s almost impressive to jam this many points in without a making a single valid one.

 

[eviohh26]

Another what have you done for me lately thread. EK getting disrespected in here.

 

[TheRarestDangles]

It’s almost impressive to jam this many points in without a making a single valid one.

I agree. Goals, assists, points, and +/ are all useless and invalid.

 

[avsfan9]

Karlsson had a year where he lead the entire league in assists and was top 5 in points

Makar was 20th in the league in points this year and 48th/68th his other years

Karlsson also lead his team by 21 points that year

Makar has never lead his team in points

Karlsson would never lead his team in points if he was on a team with Mackinnon and Rantanan. However Makar is doing it in the playoffs.

Another what have you done for me lately thread. EK getting disrespected in here.

What have you done for me lately? Makar is literally being viewed as the second best player in the league behind Mcdavid right now.

 

[wetcoast]

I'm actually pretty disapointed that t'we did not even see the best of Erik Karlsson because his Achille got chopped 70%.

Nevermind the fact that we did not even get to enjoy the "post achille" domination of Karlsson for long because he lost half of his ankle bone a few years later

We are going to be hearing alot of things like this really soon when the separation becomes even more clear.

A former NHL Dman calls Makar the Best all around NHL Dman since Orr here.

 

[Vakarte]

I'll just leave this hear for both players at the same age

 

[EXTRAS]

Would be cool to see makar keep his pace up for 10 more years

Like where would that put him all time among dmen

 

[guzzy]

I'll just leave this hear for both players at the same age View attachment 557722
View attachment 557723

facts aren't allowed here. Most people are still using eye test only. For the record, Makar is already better than prime Karlsson. I posted earlier in this thread that Makar is 1.01 ppg in his first three years. Karlsson was 0.68. Makar hasn't even hit prime yet. His defence and offence will only get better. Let's be honest, Karlsson has always been average at best, at defence.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

I'll just leave this hear for both players at the same age View attachment 557722
View attachment 557723

Oh yeah, that seems to be a real credible source, considering it's telling you that Karlsson was 47 years old in 2015.

 

[swiftwin]

I'll just leave this hear for both players at the same age View attachment 557722
View attachment 557723

Cool, so you grabbed Karlsson's two worst seasons when he was recovering from a career threatening injury?

 

[swiftwin]

facts aren't allowed here. Most people are still using eye test only. For the record, Makar is already better than prime Karlsson. I posted earlier in this thread that Makar is 1.01 ppg in his first three years. Karlsson was 0.68. Makar hasn't even hit prime yet. His defence and offence will only get better. Let's be honest, Karlsson has always been average at best, at defence.

These are not facts. Do you know what a fact is? Here's a fact: Karlsson won the Norris when he was 21. Makar is 23 and hasn't won a Norris yet.

Not to mention the fact that the literal title of this thread is "Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?" not "Do you think Cale Makar will have a better career than Erik Karlsson?"

 

[abo9]

I think Makar is superior offensive player than Karlsson, but I'm pretty sure the counter to that is going to "but the Avalanche!"

Doesn't really matter how finely we slice it. Erik Karlsson in his prime was obviously an elite, cream of the crop defenseman who did special things but there were also years when other defensemen of his era were better via some different blend of statistical production, offense, defense or team success.

IMO, saying Makar has surpassed Karlsson really isn't all that controversial or implausible.

I argued my position it by providing different quantifiable evidences. You're countering with "but I think Makar is better offensively"?

Ok, that's your opinion. What arguments do you have to support this notion though? You're free to think that Makar is better offensively, but why do you think that?

I don't think there's a wrong answer here, but I have failed to see anyone argue that Makar is better offensively provide any concrete evidence for it... besides 86>82 pts but that makes no sense without league-wide scoring context.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Karlsson would never lead his team in points if he was on a team with Mackinnon and Rantanan. However Makar is doing it in the playoffs.

Hilarious how you argue on one hand that he’s disadvantaged by playing on a great team and then completely ignore it for the playoffs…

Makar never would’ve gone anywhere in the playoffs with that Ottawa team either.

 

[umma gumma]

facts aren't allowed here. Most people are still using eye test only. For the record, Makar is already better than prime Karlsson. I posted earlier in this thread that Makar is 1.01 ppg in his first three years. Karlsson was 0.68. Makar hasn't even hit prime yet. His defence and offence will only get better. Let's be honest, Karlsson has always been average at best, at defence.

Karlsson's defense was so average Boucher used often to leave him on ice for the last 2 miniutes of a playoff game to protect a one goal lead. Strange.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

facts aren't allowed here. Most people are still using eye test only. For the record, Makar is already better than prime Karlsson. I posted earlier in this thread that Makar is 1.01 ppg in his first three years. Karlsson was 0.68. Makar hasn't even hit prime yet. His defence and offence will only get better. Let's be honest, Karlsson has always been average at best, at defence.

It actually fits the eye test. Karlsson was never that much into defending.

Hilarious how you argue on one hand that he’s disadvantaged by playing on a great team and then completely ignore it for the playoffs…

Makar never would’ve gone anywhere in the playoffs with that Ottawa team either.

And we know this how?

So all the best players play for the ***** teams then? You can't be good on a good team?

Funny

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

Karlsson's defense was so average Boucher used often to leave him on ice for the last 2 miniutes of a playoff game to protect a one goal lead. Strange.

Everyone knows defending was/is Karlssons weakness. No point defending that . He was better defender in his prime though, I give you that.

 

[abo9]

We are going to be hearing alot of things like this really soon when the separation becomes even more clear.

A former NHL Dman calls Makar the Best all around NHL Dman since Orr here.

The separation of Karlsson's foot?

I was just lamenting that one of the NHL's best players got his career hampered by significant injuries, nothing to do with Makar.

As far as media attention... I'm rolling my eyes because prime Karlsson also had lots of it and egregious comparisons too:

(The season he joined Orr as the only other defenseman to lead the league in assists, praised by Coffey)

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.3529616

(You want crazy references? Karlsson mentioned in the same breath as Gretzky and Lemieux by a BOSTON sprotswriter)

Boston sportswriters — no strangers to great defencemen — are blown away by Karlsson

The Boston media are mentioning names like Orr and Bourque when describing his play.

ottawacitizen.com

(Comparisons to Orr)

Erik Karlsson is most game-changing defenseman since Bobby Orr

www.cbssports.com

(Praised by Orr himself)

Bobby Orr Loves To Watch Erik Karlsson, Believes He Could Win Art Ross Trophy

BOSTON — Ottawa Senators defenseman Erik Karlsson is an extraordinary talent, so much so that he’s drawn comparisons to the best D-man in NHL history: Bruins legend Bobby Orr. Karlsson, like Orr, plays a very fast-paced, offensive-heavy style of hockey. Instead of being a “stay-at-home”...

nesn.com

(More praises from Orr himself)

Bobby Orr a big Karlsson booster

When the greatest NHL defenceman of all-time watches Erik Karlsson, he is reminded of the best of the best ... guys like Larry Robinson, Serge Savard, Guy Lapointe,…

ottawasun.com

(Bonus: Someone broke down EK's defensive numbers too)

What Makes Erik Karlsson the NHL's Best Defenceman

At the halfway point of the 2015-16 NHL season, Erik Karlsson stands alone in leading both all NHL defenceman and all Ottawa Senators skaters in points...

syndication.bleacherreport.com

 

[guzzy]

These are not facts. Do you know what a fact is? Here's a fact: Karlsson won the Norris when he was 21. Makar is 23 and hasn't won a Norris yet.

Not to mention the fact that the literal title of this thread is "Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?" not "Do you think Cale Makar will have a better career than Erik Karlsson?"

PPG in first three years. He has already surpasses Karlsson's best season for points. Give it up already.

Karlsson's defense was so average Boucher used often to leave him on ice for the last 2 miniutes of a playoff game to protect a one goal lead. Strange.

Look at the graphic on this page (Jfresh I believe). 2015 Prime Karlsson had EV defence rating of 11% compared to 88% of Makar this season. 11%......huge defensive abilities. Please stop already. He was used in the last two minutes to protect a lead because they had no one else.

 

[avsfan9]

Hilarious how you argue on one hand that he’s disadvantaged by playing on a great team and then completely ignore it for the playoffs…

Makar never would’ve gone anywhere in the playoffs with that Ottawa team either.

I don’t think Karlsson would in a full regular season with Mack and Mikko on his team. Then I realized Makar is doing in the playoffs but it’s because it’s one of the greatest playoff performances I’ve ever seen by a defensman

 

[umma gumma]

Look at the graphic on this page (Jfresh I believe). 2015 Prime Karlsson had EV defence rating of 11% compared to 88% of Makar this season. 11%......huge defensive abilities. Please stop already. He was used in the last two minutes to protect a lead because they had no one else.

Considering Karlsson successfully defended most of those leads and that the Senators were 1 goal away from the finals in double OT, I'd say his defense was a little better than average. You don't get to the cusp of the finals whit a dman that leads the team in ice time and is the coach's only option despite being average at best defensively. So yeah, please stop.

 

[TheBeard]

I don’t think Karlsson would in a full regular season with Mack and Mikko on his team. Then I realized Makar is doing in the playoffs but it’s because it’s one of the greatest playoff performances I’ve ever seen by a defensman

In all fairness. He did almost all of his damage against Mike Smith and Connor Ingram. Against a better goaltender tandem in St Louis, he had 3 points in 6 games.

 

[guzzy]

Considering Karlsson successfully defended most of those leads and that the Senators were 1 goal away from the finals in double OT, I'd say his defense was a little better than average. You don't get to the cusp of the finals whit a dman that leads the team in ice time and is the coach's only option despite being average at best defensively. So yeah, please stop.

11%. Do you know math? Serious question. 11% EV on defence is not 50%.

 

[umma gumma]

11%. Do you know math? Serious question. 11% EV on defence is not 50%.

Do you know hockey? Serious question.

 

[avsfan9]

In all fairness. He did almost all of his damage against Mike Smith and Connor Ingram. Against a better goaltender tandem in St Louis, he had 3 points in 6 games.

He was still the best players on the ice in that series.