Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[abo9]

Those are pretty redundant in today's standards. The second usually leads to the first, which is flawed in my opinion. Makar should get the Norris this year, but the point zombies will look to the (8?) extra points Josi had while ignoring Makar's better defense. The Avs/Preds series was a microcosm of the entire year. Pretty dumb but it is what it is.

Avs still have one more series to go. If Makar plays like he's capable, he'll have the hardware to put this argument to rest quite definitively in the minds of most.

I just want to point out that in the past 5 years (recently), the Norris trophy winner is more often the 2nd scoring defenseman, not the 1st scoring one.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

His point totals definitely have something to do with his teammates. That’s a fact.

Totally agree that he’d be great on a crappy team too. But his point totals would be lower.

I doubt it would have any impact at all. He’d probably get the chance to have the puck more, which would give him more opportunity to break down defences.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I doubt it would have any impact at all. He’d probably get the chance to have the puck more, which would give him more opportunity to break down defences.

Yeah, I’m sure playing with Mackinnon doesn’t help at all… He’d do just as well with Mike Hoffman right?

Please…

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Even if I were to buy that…(which I don’t - Josi outscored Makar this year at age 32) he was 4th in scoring overall. So , no that argument doesn’t wash.

Josi is fantastic. He would have scored more than a ppg easily if he peaked earlier.

Subban, Karlsson, doughty, Pietrangelo are all 32, they peaked earlier and then declined. Josi peaked later.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Josi is fantastic. He would have scored more than a ppg easily if he peaked earlier.

Subban, Karlsson, doughty, Pietrangelo are all 32, they peaked earlier and then declined. Josi peaked later.

yeah, I guess everyone did. All of a sudden scoring shot through the roof.

Give it up.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Yeah, I’m sure playing with Mackinnon doesn’t help at all… He’d do just as well with Mike Hoffman right?

Please…

Makar has 32 points in 22 games without MacKinnon. you clearly don't watch him enough. Explain that.

You are making yourself look like a fool. Give it up. Makar is going to average a career ppg better than peak Karlsson for a decade.

 

[GermanSpitfire]

I understand where Avalanche fans are coming from, That being said come back to me when he has a Norris, finish top 5 in scoring in the NHL, and is able to stay consistent over the next 5 years.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Makar has 32 points in 22 games without MacKinnon. you clearly don't watch him enough. Explain that.

I guess they should get rid of Mackinnon then. That way Makar will be a 135 point player.

Or… 22 games doesn’t really tell you much.

 

[t0nedeff]

I think he has. Kid is unreal. And if he gets a cup this year, I think it's no question that Makar has exceeded a prime Karlsson in much less time. Makar has already had more playoff success in his first 4 years than Karlsson has had over his entire playoff career. Mind you, surprisingly Karlsson has only played in the post season 6 times in his 13 year career. But also Karlsson has played on some stacked Ottawa rosters too.

lol when has Karlsson ever played on a stacked Ottawa roster? Lol I don't recall him having 4 forwards on his team be ppg and have 3 of those put up 85+ points.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Yeah, I’m sure playing with Mackinnon doesn’t help at all… He’d do just as well with Mike Hoffman right?

Please…

He’s outscoring MacKinnon in the playoffs. What should that tell you?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

He’s outscoring MacKinnon in the playoffs. What should that tell you?

That he’s having a great playoff and deserves accolades for it.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

I guess they should get rid of Mackinnon then. That way Makar will be a 135 point player.

Or… 22 games doesn’t really tell you much.

Or Karlsson would be less utilized on the Avs because we have so much more talent.

Karlsson goes from talentless Ottawa to a much more talented San Jose team and does what? Nothing. Yes I realize he was already done with his one year peak.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Or Karlsson would be less utilized on the Avs because we have so much more talent.

Karlsson goes from talentless Ottawa to a much more talented San Jose team and does what? Nothing. Yes I realize he was already done with his one year peak.

If you realize he was done then why bring it up?

The big differences is the forwards. Mike Hoffman vs Nathan Mackinnon. Hell, Nazim Kadir would’ve been better.

Are you seriously going to try to say that this isn’t going to help? Really?

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

I don’t really have an issue with people taking EK, but the fact that Makar has the numbers advantage and is generating this discussion at 23-years old bodes well for him in this debate.

If Makar wins a Smythe and a cup this season, I would immediately put him over Karlsson. Even if he doesn’t, it’s likely only a matter of time before he passes Karlsson in most peoples minds.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I don’t really have an issue with people taking EK, but the fact that Makar has the numbers advantage and is generating this discussion at 23-years old bodes well for him in this debate.

If Makar wins a Smythe and a cup this season, I would immediately put him over Karlsson. Even if he doesn’t, it’s likely only a matter of time before he passes Karlsson in most peoples minds.

Makar does not have a numbers advantage… stop pretending he does. Karlsson’s got a significant advantage. It’s not really even close.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Makar does not have a numbers advantage… stop pretending he does. Karlsson’s got a significant advantage. It’s not really even close.

Defenceman point per game rank regular season:

Makar: 3rd
Karlsson: 12th

Defenceman points per game rank playoffs:

Makar: 2nd
Karlsson: 11th

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Defenceman point per game rank regular season:

Makar: 3rd
Karlsson: 12th

Defenceman points per game rank playoffs:

Makar: 2nd
Karlsson: 11th

Points per game doesn’t mean squat. We’ve covered this already. Stop trying this shell game.

 

[Freudian]

Classic case of recency bias

Well both are recent. You do realize Erik Karlsson is still an active player? Guess it might be easy to miss.

 

[majormajor]

I guess they should get rid of Mackinnon then. That way Makar will be a 135 point player.

Or… 22 games doesn’t really tell you much.

He plays minutes without Mackinnon every single game.

Over his career, Makar has more points per minute with Mackinnon on the bench than with him on the ice. Makar doesn't depend on linemates at all, he's one of the best 1 on 1 forces in the league.

 

[Freudian]

Points per game doesn’t mean squat. We’ve covered this already. Stop trying this shell game.

It means one of them produces more offensively than the other. Even if we remove EKs worst years to give him a statistical boost and adjust for league scoring Makar produce more than EK. In the playoffs the difference is massive. One of them actually picks up his scoring there and for the other the scoring drops off.

You might not prefer to talk about it and instead like to discuss the matter in the terms of number of Mike Hoffmans on the team. Good that we have you to tell us what "means squat".

 

[GirardSpinorama]

If you realize he was done then why bring it up?

The big differences is the forwards. Mike Hoffman vs Nathan Mackinnon. Hell, Nazim Kadir would’ve been better.

Are you seriously going to try to say that this isn’t going to help? Really?

Oh the Mike Hoffman who scored 36 goals in Florida without Karlsson? Makar would find a way to score points on that team because he'd be the primary puck handler. The team wouldn't be as good as the Avs because of the other forwards who can carry the load when Makar isn't on the ice. But the individual production wouldn't be lower.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

He plays minutes without Mackinnon every single game.

Over his career, Makar has more points per minute with Mackinnon on the bench than with him on the ice. Makar doesn't depend on linemates at all, he's one of the best 1 on 1 forces in the league.

I didn’t say he depends on his teammates. I said he benefits from playing with high quality players.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

It means one of them produces more offensively than the other. Even if we remove EKs worst years to give him a statistical boost and adjust for league scoring Makar produce more than EK. In the playoffs the difference is massive. One of them actually picks up his scoring there and for the other the scoring drops off.

You might not prefer to talk about it and instead like to discuss the matter in the terms of number of Mike Hoffmans on the team. Good that we have you to tell us what "means squat".

If you’re going to compare the primes of two different players you look at how they performed vs their contemporaries. Please don’t try to pass off raw point totals as anything meaningful.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

I didn’t say he depends on his teammates. I said he benefits from playing with high quality players.

And because of that great players will never get the credit they are due.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Oh the Mike Hoffman who scored 36 goals in Florida without Karlsson? Makar would find a way to score points on that team because he'd be the primary puck handler. The team wouldn't be as good as the Avs because of the other forwards who can carry the load when Makar isn't on the ice. But the individual production wouldn't be lower.

Uh… yeah.

Keep telling us that playing with better players doesn’t help. I don’t see it as a winning strategy but.. you do you.