Fire Shanahan/Dubas (Yay or Nay)

[Stephen]

Are they ever. I feel bad for Justin Bourne who is playing the good side/defending TOR. His lighter side doesn't seem to cool fans down at all.

From what I can tell from discussions on here, with other Leafs fans I know and even the talking heads media owned Rogers and Bell, I think the level of damage to the brand has been substantial in this Game 7 meltdown.

I don’t know what the board thinks or what kind of faith ownership has in the process or what the behind the scenes debates are like. I don’t know what kind of summer they’ll have or what the temperature will be next autumn when camp resumes after that offseason.

I know Kyle Dubas and his management group likes carrying on like they’re the smartest people in the room - hell, maybe even like the only smart people in the room. But the sample size is getting bigger every year and it’s not looking good for them.

 

[Menzinger]

From what I can tell from discussions on here, with other Leafs fans I know and even the talking heads media owned Rogers and Bell, I think the level of damage to the brand has been substantial in this Game 7 meltdown.

I don’t know what the board thinks or what kind of faith ownership has in the process or what the behind the scenes debates are like. I don’t know what kind of summer they’ll have or what the temperature will be next autumn when camp resumes after that offseason.

I know Kyle Dubas and his management group likes carrying on like they’re the smartest people in the room - hell, maybe even like the only smart people in the room. But the sample size is getting bigger every year and it’s not looking good for them.

I'd say anecdotally speaking, it certainly seems as if the Leafs brand took a pretty substantial hit with the playoffs turning out the way they have.

Between friends vs even stuff one sees from strangers on social media this is the most negativity/pessimism I've seen since the darkest days of the Burke/Nonis era. I don't expect the mlse board to do anything particularly radical, at least when it comes to the Shanahan/Dubas' tandem, but there will certainly be a lot more pressure and tension with in the front office.

The media pieces are coming out for Keefe in greater number. One can certainly wonder if theres going to be pressure to make a change for a higher profile guy like say Boudreau

 

[Stephen]

I'd say anecdotally speaking, it certainly seems as if the Leafs brand took a pretty substantial hit with the playoffs turning out the way they have.

Between friends vs even stuff one sees from strangers on social media this is the most negativity/pessimism I've seen since the darkest days of the Burke/Nonis era. I don't expect the mlse board to do anything particularly radical, at least when it comes to the Shanahan/Dubas' tandem, but there will certainly be a lot more pressure and tension with in the front office.

The media pieces are coming out for Keefe in greater number. One can certainly wonder if theres going to be pressure to make a change for a higher profile guy like say Boudreau

Rewind to earlier in this thread, I said I don't think it makes sense to fire Dubas and Shanahan. To bring in a hockey guy with a 180 degree mandate, a new timetable and an axe to grind, I think we risk throwing out the baby with the bath water. I stand by that now.

But just like the players needed to get their butts in gear for Game 5, 6 and 7, this management team needs to get serious. There's no cruise control to the championship. It's not inevitable the players figure it out and it's not inevitable management will magically get it right. Show urgency, show you will exhaust every avenue to get better and upgrade the hockey knowledge in the damn organization. Trying to make a championship run with a green coach like Keefe is like throwing a rookie on PP to QB it or a journeyman minor league goalie as a workhorse starter. Only so many of these gambles can pay off without burning you.

 

[Leafsfan74]

From what I can tell from discussions on here, with other Leafs fans I know and even the talking heads media owned Rogers and Bell, I think the level of damage to the brand has been substantial in this Game 7 meltdown.

I don’t know what the board thinks or what kind of faith ownership has in the process or what the behind the scenes debates are like. I don’t know what kind of summer they’ll have or what the temperature will be next autumn when camp resumes after that offseason.

I know Kyle Dubas and his management group likes carrying on like they’re the smartest people in the room - hell, maybe even like the only smart people in the room. But the sample size is getting bigger every year and it’s not looking good for them.

Without question the brand is damaged. This feels as it would have felt in the early 80s with the bag over the head demand from Ballard to Nielsen. Yes, the team is more professionally run, but the results are even worse.

The fact is, the "core" are no longer viewed as "they will get over the hump". This was their year to prove it in a best case scenario. They are now viewed as " can't win in the big games".

Worse. We see the Habs on the verge of a sweep, the former GM on the Island on the verge of a 3-2 lead in the 2nd round against the Bruins.

Islanders have former Leaf cast offs. Leafs have the same flash that might not have qualified for the playoffs before the shutdown last year and after a stellar season against minimal competition, blew the mighty 3-1 lead.

He needs to find major cap space and add Gamers. If the core are back, I don't like their chances. One in particular, seems quite entitled not seen since Kessel. It rubs an already fed up fan base the wrong way..

 

[Menzinger]

Rewind to earlier in this thread, I said I don't think it makes sense to fire Dubas and Shanahan. To bring in a hockey guy with a 180 degree mandate, a new timetable and an axe to grind, I think we risk throwing out the baby with the bath water. I stand by that now.

But just like the players needed to get their butts in gear for Game 5, 6 and 7, this management team needs to get serious. There's no cruise control to the championship. It's not inevitable the players figure it out and it's not inevitable management will magically get it right. Show urgency, show you will exhaust every avenue to get better and upgrade the hockey knowledge in the damn organization. Trying to make a championship run with a green coach like Keefe is like throwing a rookie on PP to QB it or a journeyman minor league goalie as a workhorse starter. Only so many of these gambles can pay off without burning you.

It's pretty much exactly where I fall here. I'm fine giving another season to get their vision to work,. It's a rare thing to have guys like Matthews/Marner entering the very peaks of their primes, and blowing things up is no guarantee of future success either.

And if it doesn't work, the core is still under multi year contracts and can be moved in a retool/rebuild later if we see more of the same.

 

[The Apologist]

I'm not sure I'm ready to can em yet.

 

[Trapper]

It's pretty much exactly where I fall here. I'm fine giving another season to get their vision to work,. It's a rare thing to have guys like Matthews/Marner entering the very peaks of their primes, and blowing things up is no guarantee of future success either.

And if it doesn't work, the core is still under multi year contracts and can be moved in a retool/rebuild later if we see more of the same.

2-3 more years likely until the next rebuild if necessary.
That will be nearly 10 years for Shanahan.
Dubas bet his career on the plan and Matthews/Nylander will be UFA in those 3.
It will also depend on how epic any more failures are. And if some players continue struggles postseason.

 

[hotpaws]

It's pretty much exactly where I fall here. I'm fine giving another season to get their vision to work,. It's a rare thing to have guys like Matthews/Marner entering the very peaks of their primes, and blowing things up is no guarantee of future success either.

And if it doesn't work, the core is still under multi year contracts and can be moved in a retool/rebuild later if we see more of the same.

you don't need some mystical vision to win the cup . it's not like some quest for the holy grail that no one has been successful in , every year 1 team is successful in there quest to win the cup

so your giving Dubie one more year to add scraps to the core and if that doesn't work he can then move core pieces , just wondering if you've given Dubie a time limit before he needs to be replaced if he continues to fail and if so how many more years ?

 

[PromisedLand]

But the point I'm making is that judging a loss on the standard of "a true contender with a better structure would win" when literally the best example of a true contender with a great structure *wouldn't* overcome the specific injury/ no show hurdles is intellectually dishonest.

Tampa loses to Montreal with no Stamkos and 1 goal from Kucherov/Point
Tampa loses to Toronto with no Stamkos and 1 goal from Kucherov/Point

Edit- and you C depth point is a perfectly valid opinon- but the Montreal series does not vindicate it, because all things equal a better 3C wouldn't accomplish more than Matthews/Marner showing up.

Tampa won the cup with Stamkos barely even playing. This false narrative and excuses need to go away.

stop supporting this incompetent management

 

[Menzinger]

you don't need some mystical vision to win the cup . it's not like some quest for the holy grail that no one has been successful in , every year 1 team is successful in there quest to win the cup

so your giving Dubie one more year to add scraps to the core and if that doesn't work he can then move core pieces , just wondering if you've given Dubie a time limit before he needs to be replaced if he continues to fail and if so how many more years ?

Depending on how they perform from this offseason to next post season management could very well be justifiably fired. There's a lot of unknown factors between and then.

 

[Gallagbi]

Depending on how they perform from this offseason to next post season management could very well be justifiably fired. There's a lot of unknown factors between and then.

I can't see Dubas/Keefe living through another first round exit. Further than that and they get a longer rope IMO

 

[hotpaws]

Depending on how they perform from this offseason to next post season management could very well be justifiably fired. There's a lot of unknown factors between and then.

so basically you'll just keep making excuses for Dubie to keep his job until he's fired and then jump to the next GM , lol

 

[sparxx87]

so basically you'll just keep making excuses for Dubie to keep his job until he's fired and then jump to next GM , lol

The only comparable I can think of with someone whose wrong over and over but people still listen is the weatherman. Guys wrong 6 days a week but really inspires confidence on the 7th with his eloquence and charisma.

Dubas definitely has a future in politics.

 

[PromisedLand]

I can't see Dubas/Keefe living through another first round exit. Further than that and they get a longer rope IMO

I am almost certain Leafs do not even make playoffs next season - winning the 1st round is way off

Atlantic division top 3 are probably going to be: Tampa, Florida, Boston

Metro division top 3 probably going to be: Isles, Pens, Canes

Good luck competing with the two available wildcard spots

Dubas has ruined this franchise and it is amazing to see people still supporting "incompetence"


When people think "mediocrity and incompetence" is great progress universe and hockey gods will find a way to reward these people with "mediocrity and incompetence"

 

[Gallagbi]

I am almost certain Leafs do not even make playoffs next season - winning the 1st round is way off

Atlantic division top 3 are probably going to be: Tampa, Florida, Boston

Metro division top 3 probably going to be: Isles, Pens, Canes

Good luck competing with the two available wildcard spots

Dubas has ruined this franchise and it is amazing to see people still supporting "incompetence"


When people think "mediocrity and incompetence" is great progress universe and hockey gods will find a way to reward these people with "mediocrity and incompetence"

It's a ridiculous stretch to say he's ruined this franchise. He's betting on the core with movable options if it fails (for the next GM).

Personally this was the last kick at the can for them IMO, and I'd be moving at least Marner this summer, maybe Nylander depending on return.

Either way, I don't see that as a franchised ruined personally, he's going in a different direction than I would with a largely movable team

Also I'm looking forward to the adversity throughout next year. This team has a lot to prove and if they can't they don't deserve to be here. We'll see management changed, get a higher pick and likely sell some assets.

 

[egd27]

It's out there now.

The fire Keefe talk around the Toronto Media has started.

Sportsnet - Today's Leafs Hour show discussed a possible firing of Sheldon Keefe. That it "has to be on the table now", and that firing him is "a lot easier than trading Marner."

They also are going on the notion that TOR's management team plan on action. According to Friedman: that "they are not going to sit still with what went on."

Leafs Hour - Sportsnet.ca

Here's hoping.

 

[hotpaws]

The only comparable I can think of with someone whose wrong over and over but people still listen is the weatherman. Guys wrong 6 days a week but really inspires confidence on the 7th with his eloquence and charisma.

Dubas definitely has a future in politics.

Burke had an even bigger following , and after every failed season they got more vocal and defiant that he needed just one more year for his vision to bear fruit . lol .

 

[centipede2233]

I am almost certain Leafs do not even make playoffs next season - winning the 1st round is way off

Atlantic division top 3 are probably going to be: Tampa, Florida, Boston

Metro division top 3 probably going to be: Isles, Pens, Canes

Good luck competing with the two available wildcard spots

Dubas has ruined this franchise and it is amazing to see people still supporting "incompetence"


When people think "mediocrity and incompetence" is great progress universe and hockey gods will find a way to reward these people with "mediocrity and incompetence"

Someone said it in a post not sure what thread, but it was said by another poster that dubas made the wrong choices, which I agree. Dubas was all gung ho on a pure skill team, so he gets rid of kadri, bozak, komarov and martin (like to mention bozak became a Stanley cup winner, martin and komarov about to make the conference finals in 2 of the last 3 years, and kadri conf final last year). Then he realizes that he needs some toughness so he gets past there prime Thornton, clifford, simmonds, foligno. Dubas inherited a team with assets that with the right choices could have won the Stanley cup, he just made wrong choice after another. You know what happens when you continue to make the wrong choices year after year as a gm, you get fired. The question isn’t if he will be fired, the question will be when.

 

[The Masters]

These habs. What a run.
Shanny should be ashamed

 

[justashadowof]

I am almost certain Leafs do not even make playoffs next season - winning the 1st round is way off

Atlantic division top 3 are probably going to be: Tampa, Florida, Boston

Metro division top 3 probably going to be: Isles, Pens, Canes

Good luck competing with the two available wildcard spots

Dubas has ruined this franchise and it is amazing to see people still supporting "incompetence"

You probably underestimate this team's ability to perform during regular season hockey. They'll accumulate points and make the playoffs most likely, although not guaranteed. That higher gear required at playoff time doesn't seem to be there. I don't sense that the big contracts really give a toss about the Stanley Cup. I don't get the sense that they'll win playoff series from this point forward without serious changes.

 

[Gallagbi]

You probably underestimate this team's ability to perform during regular season hockey. They'll accumulate points and make the playoffs most likely, although not guaranteed. That higher gear required at playoff time doesn't seem to be there. I don't sense that the big contracts really give a toss about the Stanley Cup. I don't get the sense that they'll win playoff series from this point forward without serious changes.

Really depends what team shows up. They had a great regular season this year, but the year prior was pretty terrible given their talent.

 

[justashadowof]

I know Kyle Dubas and his management group likes carrying on like they’re the smartest people in the room - hell, maybe even like the only smart people in the room. But the sample size is getting bigger every year and it’s not looking good for them.

<Kyle Dubas calmly explains in a confident yet empathetic manner how he has learned many things from this past season. A slight smile rises in his face as if he's putting something over on the interviewer. Later in the interview Dubas, now with a somber demeanour, declares that the blame rests firmly on everyone involved including himself. You ask what could have been done differently. He talks about injuries, hard luck and most importantly that he had talked to his people before the playoffs that the opponent was stronger than it appeared to be at first sight. >

 

[nuck]

These habs. What a run.
Shanny should be ashamed

No because everybody did a good job this year, haven't you heard?

 

[Gallagbi]

No because everybody did a good job this year, haven't you heard?

I haven't read a single poster claim that.

 

[nuck]

I haven't read a single poster claim that.

No that was Shanny at the post presser. Kyle assembled a great team that addressed the clubs weaknesses and Sheldon got the best out of players and adapted to situations. No posters suggested these things were true.