Fire Shanahan/Dubas (Yay or Nay)

[ToneDog]

I can't think of a player I've wanted more to see traded than Marner. And I've been a fan of this team since 1985.

Phaneuf.

 

[TheScandal89]

I can't believe people still wanna keep Dubas after its been a train wreck since he's gotten control of the team.

Muzzin, Campbell and Brodie were the only 3 solid moves hes made, and Campbell might be a complete fluke.

 

[sparxx87]

From the outside/media perspective yes, but if it accomplishes your objectives it accomplishes your objectives. It comes down to belief. If he can elevate and get it done in the playoffs he's a HOF player, and this core will start winning. If he's not who cares if he keeps putting up flashy reg season numbers move his ass for a solid 60 point winger and some futures, reallocate the cap.

Absolutely. Just hard to make that call today IMO. Ideally, I’m having a real tough conversation with John Tavares. Swapping him for a good 6-7M centre + cap space would be the direction I’d like to take.

If you trade Blake Wheeler for Rich Peverley, and Peverley makes a positive impact on winning the Stanley Cup, you win... but those deals are hard to make. (I know, not perfect comparison but you get what I’m saying)

 

[sparxx87]

I will not say it is a dangerous game. It is a "post advanced level" game. If Marner is trade, it cannot be another Kadri trade. It must be Marner plus a D for Jones plus a RW, or Marner for a #1 C.

Dangerous in that you have to be careful with what you take in return.

... and because you mentioned Kadri trade that was so fundamentally flawed, I just don’t have a lot of confidence in Dubas to make the right call.

 

[17 Clark]

Tampa --- 8 forwards + 3 defense + 1 tender over 4M AAV per ------- 12 players
Toronto --- 4 forwards + 3 defense + 1 tender over 4M AAV per ------- 8 players

Somehow Tampa has double da firepower up front + da better defense + da better tender at SAME CAP + a SC + a couple good playoff runs

Bottom line it is poor management which got us here

It’s not gonna get any better if you continues to run this team Kyle can go learn a trade somewhere else

 

[Egghead1999]

I said it earlier and i'll say it again .

Marner is not the player you move , yeah he had a bad playoffs and there's no guarantee he improves in the future but if i'm going to gamble on a player improving i have no issues gambling on a kid that just turned 24 with his talent and regular season production will improve his post season play ,

and it would have been f***ing nice if the chosen one Keefe would have realized that maybe just maybe he could have moved Hyman who was doing nothing but blowing scoring chance after scoring chance off the line and give our top line another shooting option . Unfortunately Dubie's spreadsheet probably spit out the top line was dominating and just to stay the course and they'd eventually break out .

if Dubie wants to save his job and improve the team the player who has to be moved is Tavares , i don't care how or for who , just move him without retention and without cap dumps coming back

Leafs is not going to try Tavares for future. Marner is what he is. He is a #1 RW who needs a stronge type center (at least ROR) in the playoffs. He will not be Patrick Kane, he is Johnny Gaudreau.

 

[sparxx87]

I can't believe people still wanna keep Dubas after its been a train wreck since he's gotten control of the team.

Muzzin, Campbell and Brodie were the only 3 solid moves hes made, and Campbell might be a complete fluke.

Yeah. And only needed a good backup because he made an egregious error previously.

Love Brodie and like Muzzin, but Muzzin’s contract might not age well. Turning 33 and absent two straight years when they needed him. 5.5M + for 3 more years.

 

[rumman]

I don't get it either , it's like a mystery wrapped in a riddle .

maybe the Chinese farmer has the answer

perhaps............

 

[sparxx87]

Bogosian was good, too. Especially for the money. Him and Dermott added a 3rd pair that didn’t need to be hidden. Never spectacular but always solid. This + Brodie made a very positive impact on the improved defense.

Still not sure why Keefe sat Dermott and took away a strength they’d enjoyed all year.

 

[Cobra777]

@4thline

I have a number of ideas as to how they could better spend $14.5M from Tavares and Kerfoot but I’m on mobile and it keeps refreshing and deleting my work!!

I fully agree back when when Kadri was 2C he had a couple of 30 goal campaigns was decent in the face off circle and played very well in the heavy areas was not shy in the physical department and scored some clutch goals had good skills, decent puck possession and stick handle and a decent shot and he earned it. IMHO he was moved to fit all the big contracts

He upped his game which takes alot of effort only to get demoted to 3C when they brought in JT who at the time even I fell for getting a star player when I knew our defense was questionable and suspect.

After that is when he seemed to fall off in play, late to some meetings and suspended that playoff series against Boston two seasons back to back.

I kept looking at the hits over and over and then keep watching Boston and their antics, Marchand, Chara punching JT in the face bare handed in a scrum to where JT was not even facing him and some of their other forwards dirty plays checks and hits and Kadris hits just started to seem lesser that terrible after taking all into account.

I remember him absolutely smoking Marchand with the hardest hit I have seen on that disturber on a back check in front of our net, one of the most beautiful things I have witnessed.

Yes I know hindsight is 20 but you are right that money could have been allocated to much more needed areas, Our team had a great 2C and he got moved, he had 7 or 8 playoff goals that season with the Avs as I watched every game which shows he is a playoff performer. Yes peeps are going to go on about his suspensions and hits but he scores and is willing to lay the body.

We can sit here and judge, the NHL is a ramped up fast game of seconds and inches when it comes to hits, I make no excuse or defense for him but one thing is I have not seen him stick out a knee on knee and don't think that he intentionally tries to end someones career, bad timing, frustration got the better of him, even happened to Scheiffle.

Look how many times Tom Wilson has faced suspension yet most NHL teams and fans would clamor for a guy like that if he played for your team

Reason I typed this is because so many were against and blamed him for our losses when in fact it was the same guys who played that also did not show up when the chips were down

 

[rumman]

Yeah. I’ve had this discussion with a few friends and it’s very possible. They’re going to be thin on margin for error, that’s for sure.

Very interesting to see how their roster takes shape for next year. I want to see it before I bet.

my take is they qualify for the playoffs, I mean, that's when they shine, but do another playoff choke job.....

 

[4thline]

Absolutely. Just hard to make that call today IMO. Ideally, I’m having a real tough conversation with John Tavares. Swapping him for a good 6-7M centre + cap space would be the direction I’d like to take.

If you trade Blake Wheeler for Rich Peverley, and Peverley makes a positive impact on winning the Stanley Cup, you win... but those deals are hard to make. (I know, not perfect comparison but you get what I’m saying)

I'm the other way, Marner for a 6-8 mill winger +. I think JT's stoic steady leadership is the perfect counterpoint to Matthews fun/passion. Both have playoff type skillsets, and JT's contract is a nice placeholder for the return of the next GTA born exceptional status centre... haha. But I really like the 1-2 punch down the middle.

 

[capfit9]

All I gotta say is IF Kerfoot gets selected by Seattle all the Leafs would have for the Kadri deal would be a

6TH ROUND PICK

 

[Trapper]

I said it earlier and i'll say it again .

Marner is not the player you move , yeah he had a bad playoffs and there's no guarantee he improves in the future but if i'm going to gamble on a player improving i have no issues gambling on a kid that just turned 24 with his talent and regular season production will improve his post season play ,

and it would have been f***ing nice if the chosen one Keefe would have realized that maybe just maybe he could have moved Hyman who was doing nothing but blowing scoring chance after scoring chance off the line and give our top line another shooting option . Unfortunately Dubie's spreadsheet probably spit out the top line was dominating and just to stay the course and they'd eventually break out .

if Dubie wants to save his job and improve the team the player who has to be moved is Tavares , i don't care how or for who , just move him without retention and without cap dumps coming back

Then move JT and get a 5 mil 2C.
But we have to shed one of the 3 double digits.
And Marner didn’t just have a bad playoff.
Bad playoffs. Sorry, I know some like him, assist guy, but he has 5 career playoff goals.
scored primarily in the first 2 years with quality depth. Not for 11 million if the cap. No how, no way.

 

[sparxx87]

I fully agree back when when Kadri was 2C he had a couple of 30 goal campaigns was decent in the face off circle and played very well in the heavy areas was not shy in the physical department and scored some clutch goals had good skills, decent puck possession and stick handle and a decent shot and he earned it

He upped his game which takes alot of effort only to get demoted to 3C when they brought in JT who at the time even I fell for getting a star player when I knew our defense was questionable and suspect.

After that is when he seemed to fall off in play, late to some meetings and suspended that playoff series against Boston two seasons back to back.

I kept looking at the hits over and over and then keep watching Boston and their antics, Marchand, Chara punching JT in the face bare handed in a scrum to where JT was not even facing him and some of their other forwards dirty plays checks and hits and Kadris hits just started to seem lesser that terrible after taking all into account.

I remember him absolutely smoking Marchand with the hardest hit I have seen on that disturber on a back check in front of our net, one of the most beautiful things I have witnessed.

Yes I know hindsight is 20 but you are right that money could have been allocated to much more needed areas, Our team had a great 2C and he got moved, he had 7 or 8 playoff goals that season with the Avs as I watched every game which shows he is a playoff performer. Yes peeps are going to go on about his suspensions and hits but he scores and is willing to lay the body.

We can sit here and judge, the NHL is a ramped up fast game of seconds and inches when it comes to hits, I make no excuse or defense for him but one thing is I have not seen him stick out a knee on knee and don't think that he intentionally tries to end someones career, bad timing, frustration got the better of him, even happened to Scheiffle.

Reason I typed this is because so many were against and blamed him for our losses when in fact it was the same guys who played that also did not show up when the chips were down

Great post!

I want 12 forwards that play on the edge like Kadri.. not a bunch of players scared to approach it.

Even watching the Isles-Bruins. Bruins get away with a lot of shit... I’d probably lose my mind watching all my teammates get run and nobody pushing back.

 

[rumman]

I can't think of a player I've wanted more to see traded than Marner. And I've been a fan of this team since 1985.

there will be suitors if he's made available, Seattle would be a good destination for Marner. I'd delve into what type of over payment is out there for AM too, you never know what teams will do for a marquee player? Getting rid of those two solves the "who cares" attitude and serves notice to remainder of players that excellence is demanded. Of course you need a competent GM to not get fleece in those deals so not....a.....chance.

 

[sparxx87]

I'm the other way, Marner for a 6-8 mill winger +. I think JT's stoic steady leadership is the perfect counterpoint to Matthews fun/passion. Both have playoff type skillsets, and JT's contract is a nice placeholder for the return of the next GTA born exceptional status centre... haha. But I really like the 1-2 punch down the middle.

That could work, too.

I like the 1-2 punch, just don’t think you can pay that much for it and still build a strong forward core.... They’d need to be prime Crosby and Malkin to compensate.

Depending on who that winger is, I could envision some scenarios where that could work.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Then move JT and get a 5 mil 2C.
But we have to shed one of the 3 double digits.
And Marner didn’t just have a bad playoff.
Bad playoffs. Sorry, I know some like him, assist guy, but he has 5 career playoff goals.
scored primarily in the first 2 years with quality depth. Not for 11 million if the cap. No how, no way.

JT going nowhere .. he has a full NMC .. and Matty only gets traded for McJesus or MAC and likelihood is ZERO .. folks it is Mitch who has to go .. until CAP is fixed this team will miss playoffs in foreseeable future

 

[rumman]

Bogosian was good, too. Especially for the money. Him and Dermott added a 3rd pair that didn’t need to be hidden. Never spectacular but always solid. This + Brodie made a very positive impact on the improved defense.

Still not sure why Keefe sat Dermott and took away a strength they’d enjoyed all year.

Bogo will get offers greater thsn the Leafs can afford imo. He earned it too.........

 

[sparxx87]

Bogo will get offers greater thsn the Leafs can afford imo. He earned it too.........

Yep.

Unfortunately most of these 1 year flyers will be like this; if they work out, they get more money somewhere else the next year.

They’ll need to hit on 4 or 5 every year to compete IMO. Under this structure, there will always be a lot of turnover.

 

[socko]

Lightning fans had lots of positive things to say about Bogo. He's developing a track record of solid play.

 

[4thline]

That could work, too.

I like the 1-2 punch, just don’t think you can pay that much for it and still build a strong forward core.... They’d need to be prime Crosby and Malkin to compensate.

Depending on who that winger is, I could envision some scenarios where that could work.

tight either way cap, only 7k difference. The thing that has swayed me on Marner was his personal inability to score. It seemed like he was coming along, but he needs that piece to justify keeping him. Him and AM are magic together- pucks are going in for Austin. Matthews got his looks and hit iron/got goalied, and without Matthews scoring Marner provided little offense. How does that look with a 6 million dollar centre? Can he squeeze more out of them, or will the opposition be able to shut him down even more completely because you don't need the double team like on AM/JT.

Whereas we know that JT can take two 2nd line wings and make a 1st line. Marner hasn't done that since playing with Bozak/JVR, and that was sheltered to shit. I like the Kessel / HBK use, but it's hard to pull off without a 1-2 punch to keep that opportunistic 3rd line unmarked

TL;DR : JT's worth his money and can drive a line, we have to hope he can keep it up
MM we'd have to hope he can drive a line.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Of course they can. They could have beat Montreal without both Kuch and Stamkos because they also know how to play a proficient defense-first style and grind out 2-1 wins.

so can the Leafs, and even did that in game 3 on the road. Gutting out a 1 goal win against a team like Montreal isn't something that should be the goal though. It plays right into their hands to keep games close right to the end. Over the last 3 years, the Leafs are 2nd in goals in the regular season and drop to 18th/25 teams in the playoffs. When Babcock was fired, Shanahan cited the fact that the Leafs lost their high scoring identity under him. Well, now we're seeing the same sort of thing when the games matter. The Leafs have been one of the best defensive teams in the playoffs the last two years, and it's meant absolutely nothing for them

 

[sparxx87]

tight either way cap, only 7k difference. The thing that has swayed me on Marner was his personal inability to score. It seemed like he was coming along, but he needs that piece to justify keeping him. Him and AM are magic together- pucks are going in for Austin. Matthews got his looks and hit iron/got goalied, and without Matthews scoring Marner provided little offense. How does that look with a 6 million dollar centre? Can he squeeze more out of them, or will the opposition be able to shut him down even more completely because you don't need the double team like on AM/JT.

Whereas we know that JT can take two 2nd line wings and make a 1st line. Marner hasn't done that since playing with Bozak/JVR, and that was sheltered to shit. I like the Kessel / HBK use, but it's hard to pull off without a 1-2 punch to keep that opportunistic 3rd line unmarked

TL;DR : JT's worth his money and can drive a line, we have to hope he can keep it up
MM we'd have to hope he can drive a line.

All sound logic. I guess for this reason, I’ve always been of the opinion that the Toronto Maple Leafs are better with Matthews-Nylander and Marner on a different line + another good centreman.

A lot not to like about Babcock but I think he had this part right. I think Marner can elevate a lesser player better than Nylander, but the drop of from Marner to Nylander isn’t significant enough to take much away from Matthews... if that makes sense.

Also think a better shot makes Nylander more dangerous as a playmaker for a lurking Matthews.

 

[17 Clark]

I can't believe people still wanna keep Dubas after its been a train wreck since he's gotten control of the team.

Muzzin, Campbell and Brodie were the only 3 solid moves hes made, and Campbell might be a complete fluke.

you know what they say the blind mouse find the cheese once in a while You can do a thing 100×99 times got it wrong