Dubas appreciation thread

[Joey Hoser]

There is no substitute to the education received growing up in competitive hockey. There is no substitute to learning what makes a great team on and off the ice, and what elements are present that may not be as visible from the stands or on TV.

Let's make O'dog GM. He played for over a decade.

Never was this more evident than last year against Columbus. That series result wasn’t really surprising for some.

You predicted the Leafs would play great defensively, and struggle to score against no name goaltenders?

Yeah I bet you did.

 

[sparxx87]

Julien Brisebois.
Sam Pollock
Roger Neilson
Stan Bowman

Brisebois was very fortunate in the situation he landed in. Yzerman left unexpectedly and he’s done well with the opportunity.

I can’t speak to Pollock or Neilson because they’re before my time, but I think Bowman is another one who was gifted something that was hard to mess up. I’m not a fan at all.

 

[IPS]

Most importantly

- Babcock
+ Keefe

That's a downgrade in Mess' eyes.

 

[zeke]

You’re just speculating. All of that could be wrong, we’ll never know.

I think he would have traded for Seth Jones, John Gibson and JG Pageau... and passed on Tavares instead signing Pietrangelo.

There’s my wild speculation.

i think you're a little wilder than me tbh!

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

You’re just speculating. All of that could be wrong, we’ll never know.

I think he would have traded for Seth Jones, John Gibson and JG Pageau... and passed on Tavares instead signing Pietrangelo.

There’s my wild speculation.

You speculated a bunch of good things Lou may have done, so I think it’s fair to go in the opposite direction with speculation.

Lou wasn’t done. He didn’t get his standard 5 years and I don’t fault him for not trading for a defenseman because we don’t know what was available or what the price would be.

You can’t say he wouldn’t have traded for Muzzin when he became available. You can’t see he wouldn’t have signed Brodie. Maybe he doesn’t sign Tavares, keeps Kadri at 2C and uses that money to sign Pietrangelo?

We just don’t know. All we know is that Lamoriello didn’t get the standard 5 years and wanted more time to bring his vision to life. Shanahan was in a hurry to transition to Dubas and the organization took two steps back before seemingly a step forward this year.

 

[4thline]

Brisebois was very fortunate in the situation he landed in. Yzerman left unexpectedly and he’s done well with the opportunity.

I can’t speak to Pollock or Neilson because they’re before my time, but I think Bowman is another one who was gifted something that was hard to mess up. I’m not a fan at all.

Brisebois was handpicked by Yzerman has been with that organization for a decade, playing a big role in shaping it.

"Name me one... but those two Hall of Famers and 2 guys with 4 of the last 12 cups don't count"

 

[NK94]

They would represent a very small minority. Most don’t care how he looks or speaks, they want the team to win or at least compete in the playoffs past round 1. If they do that, nobody is criticizing because nobody cares. They’d be happy the team is winning.

Most adults I’ve spoken to are skeptical someone whose never played competitive hockey understands the bones required to build a winner (he’s already conceded that he underestimated certain elements and worked this offseason to address) It’s fair to be skeptical of this, and likewise with a guy who was able to skip the line because of nepotism.

I’m all for innovation and being ahead of the curve, I’m just not sold Dubas is. I think he inherited a good program but has done little with it to this point.

Hopefully that changes this year. They’ve been gift wrapped a weak division and a trip to the final 4 of the playoffs.

Dubas was in the Leafs organization a full year before Lou was, and Lou left him some major bombs to navigate around when he left.

Much of what could have been viewed as the core back then (Rielly, Kadri, Gardiner, JVR, Nylander, Brown) predated both Dubas and Lou. Future pieces in Marner, Dermott, & Kapanen predated Lou. Dubas didn't inherit shit.

Lou oversaw a consensus first overall pick in Matthews, the Andersen trade, and what else exactly? He still didn't win anything here, signed a few crummy contracts, and the blueline issues still weren't resolved. I mean, unless you consider Hainsey and Zaitsev to be long-term solutions.

 

[sparxx87]

i think you're a little wilder than me tbh!

Most definitely

They might not have a first round pick for a while, but if they win a cup I don’t care.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Most have hockey resumes. Name me one whose had success as a coach or manager without at least playing to college or junior level? The only one I can think of is Jon Cooper in Tampa. And while Lacrosse is a different game, it’s conceivable how a smart and hard working guy could make the transition.

I’m talking nepotism to get his foot in the door with the Greyhounds.

I’m not advocating for anything, I wasn’t Lamoriello’s biggest fan... but I respect how he does business and wanted to see him get his 5 years to see it through.

I said before Lamoriello that I wanted them to buy David Poile from Nashville. Poile is imperfect, but would have almost assuredly drafted them a stud defender or two in the second round if they gave him the opportunity. He built one of the best programs in the league for a time, and did so on a strict budget. Would have loved to see what he’d do with MLSE resources.

Dubas gave up hockey due to concussions. He then worked his way from stick boy, to dressing room attendant, to scout, to sports management degree graduate, to player agent, to OHL GM, to AHL GM/NHL assistant/interim GM, to NHL GM. He literally has one of the biggest "from the ground up" stories in the entire NHL. He was hired because he was competent, not due to nepotism.

He attended his interview with a detailed plan to improve the team, which had struggled in recent years. The Greyhounds initially were looking for an experienced candidate for the GM position, but Dubas's interview was so impressive, that he was the board's unanimous choice.

They saw significant improvement, just like the Marlies, and just like the Leafs. He earned his job more than most of the GMs in the league, who "played hockey" in a league that was completely different, and are now endlessly recycled from an old boys club. Also, while your "exception" is far from the only one, you do realize that he is the coach of the reigning Stanley Cup champions, right? Not really helping your claim.

There was no "5 years" for Lou to get. Lou knew this; it wasn't the big surprise you're misrepresenting it as. Lou had more than enough time to make positive moves; in fact, Dubas has helped show just how much can be done in a short amount of time when you have a competent GM.

Should also add, as a side note for those who think playoff rounds mean everything... Poile didn't make it past the 1st round until his 12th season as GM, and didn't make it past the 2nd round until his 18th season.

 

[sparxx87]

Brisebois was handpicked by Yzerman has been with that organization for a decade, playing a big role in shaping it.

"Name me one... but those two Hall of Famers and 2 guys with 4 of the last 12 cups don't count"

But Yzerman built that entire program from the ground up. Family situation pushed him to move back to Michigan before Brisebois was able to finish the job.

Bowman inherited the backbone of what’s been the closest we’ve seen to a dynasty and done a poor job maintaining it IMO.

I didn’t say anyone didn’t count, I just don’t see those two the same given the situation, and I can’t intelligently discuss the other two because they’re well before my time.

You’ll find exceptions to any rule. Hopefully Dubas is another one.

 

[NK94]

The potential long-term vision of this team was somewhat undercut by two years of overseeing terrible drafts (2017 was one of the worst in recent years) trading away draft picks for 4th line centre rentals, and adding bloated contracts in an attempt to accelerate the rebuild. Lou did a better job tearing it down than building it up, bar none.

 

[IPS]

Or maybe if Lou's still here, he hires Trotz and we win the cup last season.

Lou's a hard one to figure out. So many people were saying that NYI is overachieving and will fall apart any day now, they're in cap hell and will have trouble signing Barzal and so on. This talk started a long time ago yet today they're right there with us in the standings despite playing in a tougher division.

I'm happy with the job Dubas has done. But I also doubt that Lou's as dumb as some people are making him out to be.

Johnny Boychuk's career ending eye injury did happen at a pretty convenient time.

 

[4thline]

You’ll find exceptions to any rule. Hopefully Dubas is another one.

4 of the last 12 cups is one hell of an "exception." You could a 5th in Doug Armstrong whose 3 mediocre years of junior A had him spend less time in a CHL organization growing up than Dubas.

 

[sparxx87]

4 of the last 12 cups is one hell of an "exception"

The exception is a rookie GM inheriting a team with the foundation the Hawks or Bolts had when the changes came.

Generally speaking, most of the work isn’t done for rookie GM.

I see Brian Burke in Anaheim the same way in that he inherited an almost finished product that was more about not screwing up than pushing them over the next hurdles.

 

[zeke]

The exception is a rookie GM inheriting a team with the foundation the Hawks or Bolts had when the change came.

Generally speaking, most of the work isn’t done.

I see Brian Burke in Anaheim the same way in that he inherited an almost finished product that was more about not screwing up than pushing them over the next hurdles.

Tavares
Muzzin
Brodie
Campbell

Helluva lot more than "not screwing up".

 

[4thline]

The exception is a rookie GM inheriting a team with the foundation the Hawks or Bolts had when the change came.

Or the Leafs foundation? Seems like this rookies have a great conversion percentage.

There's no exception, just..

Name me one whose had success as a coach or manager without at least playing to college or junior level?

 

[sparxx87]

Tavares
Muzzin
Brodie
Campbell

Helluva lot more than "not screwing up".

We’ll see. I’d say losing in the play in to Columbus was a pretty big fail or screw up.

Let’s hope they bounce back. There’s certainly reason for optimism with the adjustments that were made. I think more are needed but we’ll see.

Or the Leafs foundation? Seems like this rookies have a great conversion percentage.

There's no exception, just..

Not at all, we just clearly don’t agree on where the credit goes. Inheriting Hedman, Vasilevsky, Kucherov, Point etc or Toews, Kane, Keith etc don’t just give you a head start, they put you on the final turn.

I see two guys who fell into great situations, not guys without hockey resumes who built winners.

 

[Twine Tickler]

passed on Tavares instead signing Pietrangelo.

No one would have suspected Petro to make it to UFA. Especially after he brought STL the cup. Any GM in the 2018 offseason who would have said, nah Imma wait 2 years for the chance that Petro walks would be a complete moron TBH.

not trying to be a dickhead about it, its just true. JT was one of the most high profile UFA signings in NHL history. He had to pay big bucks for a superstar player. I am not unhappy with the results thus far personally. Is he overpaid, unquestionably. Thats only when you look at it singularly. What if we look at it like Spezza + JT + Holl for under 13 mill. I think thats great. You have to overpay for UFA, which is exactly what happened with JT. But we a re a far better team with JT than without JT

 

[Dekes For Days]

I see two guys who fell into great situations, not guys without hockey resumes who built winners.

You said name one other than the coach of the reigning Stanley Cup champions, which you arbitrarily decided didn't count, multiple were immediately given to you, and your response is to claim that all of those don't count either, for really no reason. Your goalpost shifting is certainly next level.

 

[meefer]

I hope you’re right, I’m just not so sure.

It’s not paranoia, I just see how drastically the landscape can change in 5 years of professional sports. I don’t think you ever want to empty your cupboards but I don’t mind gambling a little when you’ve got the talent to get close. A ballsy move may be the difference between winning vs getting close and falling off like Ottawa, Buffalo, Philadelphia, San Jose etc in the last 10-15 years.

This is a fair comment. But I'd ask, given all that Dubas has done during his time as GM, what leads you to fear he won't make a ballsy move? Isn't it fair to say that, 'cumulatively', Dubas has been quite innovative and proactive in his moves to better the team. Just look at the deal involving Kapanen. It took everyone by surprise that it was done so quickly, and with a return much better than anticipated. Step away from the ledge, breathe, and see what the 'morrow brings.

 

[cyris]

The exception is a rookie GM inheriting a team with the foundation the Hawks or Bolts had when the changes came.

Generally speaking, most of the work isn’t done for rookie GM.

I see Brian Burke in Anaheim the same way in that he inherited an almost finished product that was more about not screwing up than pushing them over the next hurdles.

Brian Burke brought in all 6 Dmen and more than half the forwards to that Ducks team that won the cup. There was a ton of luck involved but team was far from an almost finished product.

And this is coming from someone who is not a big fan of his.

 

[4thline]

Not at all, we just clearly don’t agree on where the credit goes. Inheriting Hedman, Vasilevsky, Kucherov, Point etc or Toews, Kane, Keith etc don’t just give you a head start, they put you on the final turn.

I see two guys who fell into great situations, not guys without hockey resumes who built winners.

You're a shit leader/manager if you don't think a load of credit for a decade long building process goes to the organizations #2. They almost certainly played a large role in getting those teams to that point, and were rewarded for that by given the chance to bring it home, which they did.

"Winning is the best benchmark for success, unless I don't want to give credit to the guys who won because guys like that aren't supposed to win"

 

[sparxx87]

No one would have suspected Petro to make it to UFA. Especially after he brought STL the cup. Any GM in the 2018 offseason who would have said, nah Imma wait 2 years for the chance that Petro walks would be a complete moron TBH.

not trying to be a dickhead about it, its just true. JT was one of the most high profile UFA signings in NHL history. He had to pay big bucks for a superstar player. I am not unhappy with the results thus far personally. Is he overpaid, unquestionably. Thats only when you look at it singularly. What if we look at it like Spezza + JT + Holl for under 13 mill. I think thats great. You have to overpay for UFA, which is exactly what happened with JT. But we a re a far better team with JT than without JT

No, but without tying up so much money they’d have been in a position to make a fair offer and spend that $11M more wisely.

That Tavares contract is going to hurt.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I hope you’re right, I’m just not so sure.

It’s not paranoia, I just see how drastically the landscape can change in 5 years of professional sports. I don’t think you ever want to empty your cupboards but I don’t mind gambling a little when you’ve got the talent to get close. A ballsy move may be the difference between winning vs getting close and falling off like Ottawa, Buffalo, Philadelphia, San Jose etc in the last 10-15 years.

Fair enough. I still say we should plan on Matthews being around and us contending for the next decade but ... you never know for sure.

When you factor in that 2 of the guys in the minus column were traded for futures, it kind of makes your point moot. That's the definition of building for long term success: Trading current pieces for ++ value in futures (Kapanen) and bringing in cheap short term replacements while the prospects develop.

Sorry I'm not following - what point is moot? I believe my point was that if looking into the future, it makes more sense to look at our core pieces instead of Thornton etc.

They would represent a very small minority. Most don’t care how he looks or speaks, they want the team to win or at least compete in the playoffs past round 1. If they do that, nobody is criticizing because nobody cares. They’d be happy the team is winning.

Most adults I’ve spoken to are skeptical someone whose never played competitive hockey understands the bones required to build a winner (he’s already conceded that he underestimated certain elements and worked this offseason to address) It’s fair to be skeptical of this, and likewise with a guy who was able to skip the line because of nepotism.

I’m all for innovation and being ahead of the curve, I’m just not sold Dubas is. I think he inherited a good program but has done little with it to this point.

Hopefully that changes this year. They’ve been gift wrapped a weak division and a trip to the final 4 of the playoffs.

All fair IMO. It seems that as is so often the case, if you have an opinion contrary to the popular narrative, you're branded an extremist. Like if you're not sold on Dubas, then some people accuse you of basing your decision on his glasses or whatever else.

if Lou was still here we'd still have Zaitsev and we wouldn't have Tavares or Nylander or Muzzin or Brodie.

Complete BS speculation, you don't know that at all.

Johnny Boychuk's career ending eye injury did happen at a pretty convenient time.

Funny, when Lou was here, people were just gushing over him founding Robidas island.

 

[sparxx87]

You're a shit leader/manager if you don't think a load of credit for a decade long building process goes to the organizations #2. They almost certainly played a large role in getting those teams to that point, and were rewarded for that by given the chance to bring it home, which they did.

"Winning is the best benchmark for success, unless I don't want to give credit to the guys who won because guys like that aren't supposed to win"

Am I?

Maybe I’m just unaware of what he exactly did and without specific details (which you’re welcome to share) it’ll be like most things where the man in the chair that gets the flowers.

If you have some insight as to his specific contributions as number 2, I’m interested to hear.