Dubas appreciation thread

[zeke]

Everyone you listed is better than Kerfoot and Engvall, or at least were when they won.

This be wrong.

Kerfoot Engvall is currently one of the better 3C/4C sets in hockey. Super fast, very good defensively, with solid 3rd and 4th line offense to boot.

 

[sparxx87]

Lou wasn't done? Did he even start?

What Lou add do you wish was still here?

I’d take a JG Pageau and a conference finals appearance for the Leafs?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Lou vs Kyle again ??? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo !!!

Who do you think would be a better fit for us as a #3C, Kadri or Bozak?

For bonus points - if you could add Reimer or Bernier to our roster today, who would you choose?

 

[Judas Tavares]

One thing I will say about the whole Dubas thing. I was a bit surprised at the amount of people against the hiring vs. Hunter or even letting Lou go. I get the inexperience. I do. But when you have a team that has failed for 50 years. And a fanbase that that has complained about the failure for 50 years. Wouldn't you want some change? Try something new? Different? That is what surprised me the most. Be unsuccessful for 50 years but want go to the well of retreads and try again. I thought there would be some more welcoming attitude towards something new.

Now I know, many will welcome that change should it prove successful. But the amount of outrage to begin with because the old guard wasn't hired kinda shocked me. I was completely ready for something new seeing as this team came out of the 04-05 lockout 3 decades behind the more forward-thinking teams and essentially took another decade to try and catch up.

We will see happens.

 

[4thline]

Shanahan was in a hurry to get a manager in place that aligned with his goal of a long term sustainable contender rather

Fixed

 

[Man Bear Pig]

Lou wasn’t done. He didn’t get his standard 5 years and I don’t fault him for not trading for a defenseman because we don’t know what was available or what the price would be.

You can’t say he wouldn’t have traded for Muzzin when he became available. You can’t see he wouldn’t have signed Brodie. Maybe he doesn’t sign Tavares, keeps Kadri at 2C and uses that money to sign Pietrangelo?

We just don’t know. All we know is that Lamoriello didn’t get the standard 5 years and wanted more time to bring his vision to life. Shanahan was in a hurry to transition to Dubas and the organization took two steps back before seemingly a step forward this year.

Lou wasnt done trading away assets during a rebuild is what you mean. Trading 2nd round picks for Boyle and Plekanec were baffling moves. Signing Zaitsev. Signing Marleau. Giving Matthews bonuses he wouldn't give Marner, which likely resulted in Marner holding out for much more. Lou wasnt a great GM here, at all. His success with the Islanders is baffling as well, that's a pretty crummy roster that has made the most out of things by having probably the best coach in the league. If Lou were given 5 years we'd be bleeding even more picks and prospects. The guy is a dinosaur.

 

[Mess]

Yes we're a good team now, maybe even very good, we'll see. Hopefully we'll do something worth celebrating at some point but we haven't done so yet.

Isn't this year's team composition essentially
+
Joe Thornton, Wayne Simmonds, T.J. Brodie, Zach Bogosian
-
Kasperi Kapanen, Andreas Johnsson, Tyson Barrie, Cody Ceci
=
from the one that lost in 5 games to the Columbus Blue Jackets last year in the play-in round?

Seeing because of their ages that Thornton, Simmonds and Bogosian better days are behind them as they near the end of their NHL careers, that this current composition should be viewed more as a short-term fix than long-term building plan when evaluating how good they are?

 

[sparxx87]

Fixed

But that hasn’t happened. And with a short term contract to Matthews and what will soon be an albatross contract to Tavares, there’s a real possibility this team is in a bad spot in 4 years, and still without a cup.

Hope I’m wrong, but this plan isn’t fool proof.

And you told me a year ago the wheels were going to fall off in Long Island. Maybe next year? Because they’re a point behind the Leafs despite playing in a tougher division and missing their captain for several weeks.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Lou wasnt done trading away assets during a rebuild is what you mean. Trading 2nd round picks for Boyle and Plekanec were baffling moves. Signing Zaitsev. Signing Marleau. Giving Matthews bonuses he wouldn't give Marner, which likely resulted in Marner holding out for much more. Lou wasnt a great GM here, at all. His success with the Islanders is baffling as well, that's a pretty crummy roster that has made the most out of things by having probably the best coach in the league. If Lou were given 5 years we'd be bleeding even more picks and prospects. The guy is a dinosaur.

Or maybe if Lou's still here, he hires Trotz and we win the cup last season.

Lou's a hard one to figure out. So many people were saying that NYI is overachieving and will fall apart any day now, they're in cap hell and will have trouble signing Barzal and so on. This talk started a long time ago yet today they're right there with us in the standings despite playing in a tougher division.

I'm happy with the job Dubas has done. But I also doubt that Lou's as dumb as some people are making him out to be.

 

[sparxx87]

Lou wasnt done trading away assets during a rebuild is what you mean. Trading 2nd round picks for Boyle and Plekanec were baffling moves. Signing Zaitsev. Signing Marleau. Giving Matthews bonuses he wouldn't give Marner, which likely resulted in Marner holding out for much more. Lou wasnt a great GM here, at all. His success with the Islanders is baffling as well, that's a pretty crummy roster that has made the most out of things by having probably the best coach in the league. If Lou were given 5 years we'd be bleeding even more picks and prospects. The guy is a dinosaur.

I disagree. He put some band aides on an issue while buying time to find a long term replacement. He wasn’t given a standard timeline in 5 years to finish his job.

If I pull you off a project when you’re only half way done, how would that look to me if I examine it as a finished product?

The Islanders are a team full of players who star in their role. They may not have the best xgf Corsi /60, but they fit with the group and add various elements that make up a great TEAM.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Isn't this year's team composition essentially
+
Joe Thornton, Wayne Simmonds, T.J. Brodie, Zach Bogosian
-
Kasperi Kapanen, Andreas Johnsson, Tyson Barrie, Cody Ceci
=
from the one that lost in 5 games to the Columbus Blue Jackets last year in the play-in round?

Seeing because of their ages that Thornton, Simmonds and Bogosian better days are behind them as they near the end of their NHL careers, that this current composition should be viewed more as a short-term fix than long-term building plan when evaluating how good they are?

When evaluating the team's long term prospects it makes more sense to me to look at the core then those 4 players.

Brodie's awesome!

 

[4thline]

But that hasn’t happened. And with a short term contract to Matthews and what will soon be an albatross contract to Tavares, there’s a real possibility this team is in a bad spot in 4 years, and still without a cup.

Hope I’m wrong, but this plan isn’t fool proof.

And you told me a year ago the wheels were going to fall off in Long Island. Maybe next year? Because they’re a point behind the Leafs despite playing in a tougher division and missing their captain for several weeks.

He did a good job tap dancing this off season definitely, but if rumours of 1st+ prospect for wing help are true, with Pelech, Beauvillier, Sorokin (Dubas would have been absolutely torn apart on this board for handling a prospect with 0 GP that way) up this year, Pulock/Dobson next..., then Barzal... It's cap era New Jersey all over again. He's all in on cup in the short term, and it will be worth it if he delivers, if not he's going to be leaving an absolute waste land for his successor.

The man has a 16 year track record in the cap era, all of it consistently reactionary moves with little regard for the long term.

 

[sparxx87]

He did a good job tap dancing this off season definitely, but if rumours of 1st+ prospect for wing help are true, with Pelech and Beauvillier up this year, Pulock next..., then Barzal... It's cap era New Jersey all over again. He's all in on cup in the short term, and it will be worth it if he delivers, if not he's going to be leaving an absolute waste land for his successor.

The man has a 16 year track record in the cap era, all of it consistently reactionary moves with little regard for the long term.

Wait and see. He’s proven you wrong about where the team will be, Barzal contract etc. And you keep forgetting about Seattle - he’ll almost assuredly send money there. (Important to note Boychuk and Ladd are the two bad contracts, but he didn’t sign either)

The whole “long term sustainability” sounds great in theory, but the reality of pro sports is that most management has a shelf life, and you’ll see 75-100% turnover in 5-10 years.

Lou is definitely a gambler but I was ok with that. Short window, go for it. Leafs had the young talent with the 1C/1D/1G that is the backbone of every championship team. Swing for the fence.

 

[Dekes For Days]

He wasted two years moving out most of the leadership and intensity only to miss the playoffs last year, then come out to the media and acknowledge his team is lacking those things and that he’s still learning the basics.

1. Dubas did not move out "leadership" and "intensity". He's improved that.
2. Leafs have made the playoffs every single year under Dubas.
3. That's a wildly inaccurate description of what Dubas said.
4. We currently have the best team we've had in decades, and you're still complaining.

Lou wasn’t done. He didn’t get his standard 5 years and I don’t fault him for not trading for a defenseman because we don’t know what was available or what the price would be.

So you're fine with Lou... fine with the wasted ELC years and strained relations, fine with the anchors he left us, fine with the refusal to fix the most obvious of holes, etc... all because he only got the exact amount of time everybody involved including Lou knew he'd have, and you don't know what was available?

But at the same time, you're okay with going after Dubas, who has constructed the best Leaf team we've seen in decades, even though he has been here for even less time than Lou, and you also don't know what he had available? Love to hear the logic behind that.

All we know is that Lamoriello didn’t get the standard 5 years and wanted more time to bring his vision to life. Shanahan was in a hurry to transition to Dubas and the organization took two steps back before seemingly a step forward this year.

Actually, Shanahan did exactly what the plan was, that everybody was aware of - transition to Dubas after the 2017-2018 season. And thank god he did, as we've been taking steps forward ever since, in literally everything except specifically the goaltender that Lou left us.

 

[Man Bear Pig]

Or maybe if Lou's still here, he hires Trotz and we win the cup last season.

Lou's a hard one to figure out. So many people were saying that NYI is overachieving and will fall apart any day now, they're in cap hell and will have trouble signing Barzal and so on. This talk started a long time ago yet today they're right there with us in the standings despite playing in a tougher division.

I'm happy with the job Dubas has done. But I also doubt that Lou's as dumb as some people are making him out to be.

I don't think Lou is dumb, at all. I just think that he really didn't care about giving away assets, including cap space, while he was here and knowing his days were numbered. The Islanders are weird. They definitely overachieve IMO. We can give Lou credit I suppose but I still feel like that team on paper isn't very good. They seem to always hang around the top when it seems like they're more of a 8-10th place team.

 

[4thline]

Wait and see. He’s proven you wrong about where the team will be, Barzal contract etc. And you keep forgetting about Seattle - he’ll almost assuredly send money there. (Important to note Boychuk and Ladd are the two bad contracts, but he didn’t sign either)

The whole “long term sustainability” sounds great in theory, but the reality of pro sports is that most management has a shelf life, and you’ll see 75-100% turnover in 5-10 years.

Lou is definitely a gambler but I was ok with that. Short window, go for it. Leafs had the young talent with the 1C/1D/1G that is the backbone of every championship team. Swing for the fence.

Actually he hasn't- I didn't say the team would fall apart, I said the team would start hemoraging talent and it would take bridge deals to keep it together. Prime age top young D gone for a pair of seconds, 1C and 1D signed for 3 and 2 years each. He's built a good/great team on the back of taking advantage of underpaid young talent, but has made no sign of setting up replacements for that talent when it needs to be paid.

Swinging for the fence on shortsighted gambles is great if you want a repeat of the Quinn era followed by a repeat of the JFJ/Burke era. Which essentially describes post cap Lou.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Lou is definitely a gambler but I was ok with that. Short window, go for it. Leafs had the young talent with the 1C/1D/1G that is the backbone of every championship team. Swing for the fence.

Strongly disagree. Window should be open for at least a decade, that's the way I'd approach it anyway.

I don't think Lou is dumb, at all. I just think that he really didn't care about giving away assets, including cap space, while he was here and knowing his days were numbered. The Islanders are weird. They definitely overachieve IMO. We can give Lou credit I suppose but I still feel like that team on paper isn't very good. They seem to always hang around the top when it seems like they're more of a 8-10th place team.

I'm not sure it's fair to say Lou's actions here were affected by his thinking that his days here were numbered. But then again, we're just speculating here so ... you could be right who knows? Definitely agree the NYI are weird.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Actually he hasn't- I didn't say the team would fall apart, I said the team would start hemoraging talent and it would take bridge deals to keep it together. Prime age top young D gone for a pair of seconds, 1C and 1D signed for 3 and 2 years each. He's built a good/great team on the back of taking advantage of underpaid young talent, but has made no sign of setting up replacements for that talent when it needs to be paid.

Swinging for the fence on shortsighted gambles is great if you want a repeat of the Quinn era followed by a repeat of the JFJ/Burke era. Which essentially describes post cap Lou.

This seems pretty accurate. And if he would have gone down the same road with the Leafs (seems probable) then I'm super glad we chose Dubas over him.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Isn't this year's team composition essentially
+
Joe Thornton, Wayne Simmonds, T.J. Brodie, Zach Bogosian
-
Kasperi Kapanen, Andreas Johnsson, Tyson Barrie, Cody Ceci
=
from the one that lost in 5 games to the Columbus Blue Jackets last year in the play-in round?

Seeing because of their ages that Thornton, Simmonds and Bogosian better days are behind them as they near the end of their NHL careers, that this current composition should be viewed more as a short-term fix than long-term building plan when evaluating how good they are?

Bogosian's only 30, I don't think he lumps in with the greybeards yet

 

[sparxx87]

Actually he hasn't- I didn't say the team would fall apart, I said the team would start hemoraging talent and it would take bridge deals to keep it together. Prime age top young D gone for a pair of seconds, 1C and 1D signed for 3 and 2 years each. He's built a good/great team on the back of taking advantage of underpaid young talent, but has made no sign of setting up replacements for that talent when it needs to be paid.

Swinging for the fence on shortsighted gambles is great if you want a repeat of the Quinn era followed by a repeat of the JFJ/Burke era. Which essentially describes post cap Lou.

But until you know what happens to Barzal, it’s hard to say it was bad, no? We don’t know what his plan is. We’ll have to wait and see. We don’t have anywhere close to the information necessary to critique him, all we can do is see whether it works on the ice. His does.

All we know is that it’s not what you would have done, theoretically.

I don’t remember exactly what you said so I apologize if I misquoted you, but I recall you suggesting the Islanders were in bad shape and I disagreed.

He traded Toews to buy himself a year until expansion draft, and traded from a position he was strong at. Successful teams can’t afford to pay everyone but again, his two worst contracts total over $10M/ per that he inherited. Minus those two contracts he likely goes about the last two offseasons very differently.

 

[NK94]

He did a good job tap dancing this off season definitely, but if rumours of 1st+ prospect for wing help are true, with Pelech, Beauvillier, Sorokin (Dubas would have been absolutely torn apart on this board for handling a prospect with 0 GP that way) up this year, Pulock/Dobson next..., then Barzal... It's cap era New Jersey all over again. He's all in on cup in the short term, and it will be worth it if he delivers, if not he's going to be leaving an absolute waste land for his successor.

The man has a 16 year track record in the cap era, all of it consistently reactionary moves with little regard for the long term.

Its basically guaranteed that Lou won’t be around when Barzal needs his next contract.

It’s his MO. The guy had 10 months to get the ball rolling on the Nylander negotiations and didn’t do a thing.

 

[sparxx87]

Strongly disagree. Window should be open for at least a decade, that's the way I'd approach it anyway..

I agree that would be ideal, but Matthews on a 5 year vs 8 year could impact that.

3 years of what will be Matthews’ prime was a pretty big concession IMO. Even if they’re able to sign him, how much will that cost? And how will that cost affect the rest of the roster?

This group as constructed, needs to win in the next 4 years IMO. Things are pretty uncertain beyond then.

 

[ACC1224]

Its basically guaranteed that Lou won’t be around when Barzal needs his next contract.

It’s his MO. The guy had 10 months to get the ball rolling on the Nylander negotiations and didn’t do a thing.

Dubas was GM when Nylander was signed half way through the season. He also took his time with Marner.

 

[sparxx87]

Its basically guaranteed that Lou won’t be around when Barzal needs his next contract.

It’s his MO. The guy had 10 months to get the ball rolling on the Nylander negotiations and didn’t do a thing.

Not sure about that. Most Islander fans will tell you they’re in the best shape they’ve been since the 80’s. They’ve got a Hall of Famer in the front office and behind the bench, and finally have a new building on the way in Belmont Park that will be spectacular.

Its a good time to be an Islander fan.

How do you know he didn’t have discussion with his agent? How do you know he didn’t plan to explore trading Nylander as an RFA for a young defenseman to build around that would be in Toronto long term?

Without all the information it’s easy to make assumptions.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I agree that would be ideal, but Matthews on a 5 year vs 8 year could impact that.

3 years of what will be Matthews’ prime was a pretty big concession IMO. Even if they’re able to sign him, how much will that cost? And how will that cost affect the rest of the roster?

This group as constructed, needs to win in the next 4 years IMO. Things are pretty uncertain beyond then.

Re. the Matthews deal - I think others have said that both sides wanted an 8 year deal but the cap hit would have been too much which would have hurt us elsewhere so they settled on a 5 year deal. Superstars rarely leave the team that drafted them, he also has Marner feeding him, I think there's almost zero reason to worry about him leaving and rushing things because of that paranoia would be a epic mistake.

Another thought - planning on Matthews leaving might have become a self fulfilling prophecy. Go all in and whether we win or not, the cupboards will be empty and the future bleak which would only give Matthews motivation go go elsewhere.