Devils 2021 training camp thread (news, notes and speculation) - Part III [MOD warning in OP]

[Hisch13r]

Pretending for a second Mercer and Holtz are at the same point in their respective progression arc, I feel like Holtz would be the only one "hurt" by being rushed. His game seems like a top 6 or nothing game, if you shove him down on the 3rd or 4th because he's not ready for top line minutes, he will have to learn to play a different type of game while ignoring the skills that he should be working on. Mercer is more like a Coleman, put him anywhere and he will get shit done. He seems like the type of guy who can work his way up the line up and change his game along the way. He might not have the ceiling Holtz does, but his style plays better when tossed around the line up.

With how the lineup is currently set up the 3rd line could have Kuokkanen and one of Mercer/Zacha. I don't why people still think in terms of the archaic top 6 and bottom 6. 3rd lines aren't devoid of talent anymore. That lines probably doesn't work with Zacha at center because no one there is driving the bus. If it's Mercer and he's a capable NHL center then it's a perfectly fine place for Holtz to be

 

[Captain3rdLine]

With how the lineup is currently set up the 3rd line could have Kuokkanen and one of Mercer/Zacha. I don't why people still think in terms of the archaic top 6 and bottom 6. 3rd lines aren't devoid of talent anymore. That lines probably doesn't work with Zacha at center because no one there is driving the bus. If it's Mercer and he's a capable NHL center then it's a perfectly fine place for Holtz to be

It looks right now that they are looking at Wood on the third line with Zacha and Kuokkonen. It’s early and I’m hoping Wood ends up on the 4th line with McLeod. They work so well banging and crashing on that 4th line and I don’t think wood should be in the top 9.

 

[TrufleShufle]

With how the lineup is currently set up the 3rd line could have Kuokkanen and one of Mercer/Zacha. I don't why people still think in terms of the archaic top 6 and bottom 6. 3rd lines aren't devoid of talent anymore. That lines probably doesn't work with Zacha at center because no one there is driving the bus. If it's Mercer and he's a capable NHL center then it's a perfectly fine place for Holtz to be

I missed the post where someone said 3rd lines are devoid of talent. But as much as you want to get out of the archaic times, most every team still has roles for each line. The switch can be less or more drastic depending on the coach and/or team construction, but it's still there.

 

[Hisch13r]

It looks right now that they are looking at Wood on the third line with Zacha and Kuokkonen. It’s early and I’m hoping Wood ends up on the 4th line with McLeod. They work so well banging and crashing on that 4th line and I don’t think wood should be in the top 9.

That'd if Mercer doesn't make the lineup and I just don't really see that happening

 

[Hisch13r]

I missed the post where someone said 3rd lines are devoid of talent. But as much as you want to get out of the archaic times, most every team still has roles for each line. The switch can be less or more drastic depending on the coach and/or team construction, but it's still there.

Our 3rd line isn't going to be some grindy line where he is going to have to learn a new type of game.

 

[TrufleShufle]

Our 3rd line isn't going to be some grindy line where he is going to have to learn a new type of game.

Ok.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

If young guys like Mercer and Holtz continue to perform for the rest of camp this is what I’d like to see. If someone else performs really well then we can add them in. None of the PTO’s seem that impressive to me. Vesey wasn’t great yesterday. First guys I would call up are in brackets.

Sharangovich Hughes Holtz
Tatar Hischier Bratt
Zacha Mercer Kuokkonen (or Zacha C)
Wood McLeod johnsson
Foote Boqvist
(Studenic, Thompson, Clarke)

Graves Hamilton
Smith Severson
Siegenthaler Subban
Jaros
(Okhotiuk, Bahl)

Blackwood
Bernier
(Wedgewood)

This lineup would be so exciting

 

[Hisch13r]

If young guys like Mercer and Holtz continue to perform for the rest of camp this is what I’d like to see. If someone else performs really well then we can add them in. None of the PTO’s seem that impressive to me. Vesey wasn’t great yesterday. First guys I would call up are in brackets.

Sharangovich Hughes Holtz
Tatar Hischier Bratt
Zacha Mercer Kuokkonen (or Zacha C)
Wood McLeod johnsson
Foote Boqvist
(Studenic, Thompson, Clarke)

Graves Hamilton
Smith Severson
Siegenthaler Subban
Jaros
(Okhotiuk, Bahl)

Blackwood
Bernier
(Wedgewood)

I'd rather just send down Foote and Boqvist and have a Foote-Boqvist-Clarke 1st line in Utica. Then let them be the first call ups. I wouldn't have issues with both Vesey and Jankowski being the 13/14th guys because of their PKing and also Jankowski's 5v5 defense. Outside of that I agree with everything

 

[Captain3rdLine]

I'd rather just send down Foote and Boqvist and have them be the first call ups. I wouldn't have issues with both Vesey and Jankowski being the 13/14th guys because of their PKing and also Jankowski's 5v5 defense. Outside of that I agree with everythhhing

I’m not a fan of what I’ve seen from either of those guys. They both just seem big and slow. I also would have no problem keeping Boqvist and Foote as scratches for the start because somebody is likely going to get hurt pretty quickly and they’ll get in. I’d much rather have Foote or Boqvist playing then Vesey and Jankowski from what I’ve seen and I think it’s time for them to stay around in the NHL. I don’t really want to see Boqvist spend any more time in the AHL. I think he’s an NHL player now and should be up with the big club even if he’s scratched every now and then if everyone’s healthy.

To explain what I’m thinking a little more. When someone in our top 9 gets hurt I would much rather have a skilled player like Boqvist who can keep up come into a middle 6 role than someone like Vesey or Jankowski who IMO can’t keep up with the skilled guys we now have in our top 9. The guys we have on PTO’s look like big dudes who don’t belong in the league anymore.

 

[Hisch13r]

I’m not a fan of what I’ve seen from either of those guys. They both just seem big and slow. I also would have no problem keeping Boqvist and Foote as scratches for the start because somebody is likely going to get hurt pretty quickly and they’ll get in. I’d much rather have Foote or Boqvist playing then Vesey and Jankowski from what I’ve seen and I think it’s time for them to stay around in the NHL. I don’t really want to see Boqvist spend any more time in the AHL. I think he’s an NHL player now and should be up with the big club even if he’s scratched every now and then if everyone’s healthy.

To explain what I’m thinking a little more. When someone in our top 9 gets hurt I would much rather have a skilled player like Boqvist who can keep up come into a middle 6 role than someone like Vesey or Jankowski who IMO can’t keep up with the skilled guys we now have in our top 9. The guys we have on PTO’s look like big dudes who don’t belong in the league anymore.

In that case I think you go Boqvist and one of Vesey/Jankowski and insert them based on need. I wouldn't have Foote up

 

[Captain3rdLine]

In that case I think you go Boqvist and one of Vesey/Jankowski and insert them based on need. I wouldn't have Foote up

I’d be happy with that. Sign Vesey and keep Boqvist. Vesey has some decent skill and has shown that he can score.

 

[Devils090]

If Holtz makes the team he’s playing with Hughes

 

[JimEIV]

If Holtz makes the team he’s playing with Hughes

Makes most sense honestly.

 

[HyperX]

In retrospect Hughes was up a year too early and would have been better served spending a year (or two) in college or the OHL and possibly playing in another World Juniors.

To his credit, he hasn't shown any long-term damage from the decision and appears on track to reach his potential.

Wholeheartedly disagree and Jack has said it himself

he learned far too much in that first season to call it 'too early'; he would have looked far less impressive last year without the knowledge and understanding of NHL pacing and so on

 

[Hisch13r]

Wholeheartedly disagree and Jack has said it himself

he learned far too much in that first season to call it 'too early'; he would have looked far less impressive last year without the knowledge and understanding of NHL pacing and so on

Yeah he would've just looked like a slightly stronger version of his 19-20 self which is not a good player

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

I don't think Jack would have learned anything from dominating future accountants in the NCAA or 16 year olds in the OHL

I think his "poor" rookie year made him come out and know what he had to fix moving forward. I think that was valuable experience.

 

[billingtons ghost]

if there were medical exemptions, the Devils would have released those by now. There aren't any.

wha? What makes you think that the Devils are allowed to release private medical information on someone unless it is hockey-relevent?

The Devils didn't 'release' anything on David Hale's IGA Nephropathy - he just talked about it himself.

 

[billingtons ghost]

There isn't really any medical condition that precludes you from getting vaccinated aside from known anaphylactic allergies to vaccine ingredients. ITP may be a relative contraindication but certainly isn't an absolute one. Autoimmune conditions certainly isn't one and that population would be at an increased risk of doing poorly with COVID and certainly would be advised to get vaccinated (including with a booster shot..). There are some out there that have been able to secure medical exemptions but there is neither science nor professional societies backing that..

The bolded is also completely incorrect. While we know that natural immunity is as good (if not better) than the vaccine, we also have data that the vaccine provides significant additional protection in those with natural immunity. You can certainly say vaccination in those with natural immunity may be 'less useful' but to say it's relatively pointless is very wrong. (Additionally, relying on natural immunity is less than ideal as without constant testing, won't know if your individual protection wanes.. whereas we will have great data on waning immunity on the population level in those following similar vaccine schedules).

Blackwood should certainly get the vaccine regardless of his prior COVID infection. His profession places him at higher risk for transmission. I'm happy to continue this conversation in the COVID thread or via DM, but wanted to correct this information here where others may see it.

(also happy to provide credentials to mods)

Thanks - that's great information. I had heard that those with compromised imune systems, or taking imuno suppressant drugs should also be careful and discuss with their doctors whether or not to get the vaccine. One friend of mine fits into that latter category. Is that incorrect? And if so, can you cite your source so that I can pass it on?

I guess I certainly overstated with 'relatively pointless' - thanks for the info.

 

[theoptimist]

Ok, I need y’all to not mention Mercer and Coleman in the same sentence. That boy Mercer nice.

 

[Eggtimer]

Makes most sense honestly.

Yes . If the plan is to glue Holtz to Hughes’ hip may as well do it right off the start and see if they have chemistry or what’s your guys line of thought for doing so?

 

[billingtons ghost]

people with autoimmune disorders aren’t precluded from getting the shot, generally speaking. in fact, and this is just personal experience, they are encouraged to get the vaccine because covid is more likely to seriously harm or kill them. are your friends professional athletes in the prime of their lives?

there’s always a chance he has some oddball medical condition that prevents him from getting the shot, and instead of communicating that he chose to talk in vague circles about ankle surgery. there’s a chance that he was fully vaccinated, and this whole thing has been a social experiment to better understand the relationship between athletes and the media. i’m talking in probabilities, and considering the evidence it’s pretty clear his motives behind not getting it. i don’t even care anymore, i’m just disappointed in his decision. but it’s still pretty ridiculous to hear fans throw absolutely any reasons they can think of at the wall and hope that one of them sticks to avoid admitting he’s being a selfish jackass.

I think your words 'selfish jackass' are really strong for knowing so little about what is going on. To answer your question - no, one of my friends 'allegedly' has allergic reactions to some inert ingredient of the vaccine - or a vaccine - I don't understand the situation completely. The other is in his 60s and on immunosuppressant drugs - They could be just blowing smoke for all I really know, but it really isn't any of my business so I don't judge.

It's currently keeping my band from playing because one guy is my bass player, and we aren't playing until he gets vaxed.

 

[JimEIV]

Yes . If the plan is to glue Holtz to Hughes’ hip may as well do it right off the start and see if they have chemistry or what’s your guys line of thought for doing so?

My line of thought is that there isn't a better center on the team to facilitate a sniper than Hughes. Hughes is play maker and Holtz is a shooter it seems to be a perfect fit? You don't think so?

 

[billingtons ghost]

My line of thought is that there isn't a better center on the team to facilitate a sniper than Hughes. Hughes is play maker and Holtz is a shooter it seems to be a perfect fit? You don't think so?

I can't think of anything better for the future of this team. Having Sharangovich on the other side makes me think that the line could be ok defensively, since Hughes is so great at retrieving the puck even if he gives it away. I'd agree with others too that say we should sign Vesey and then just have Clarke Boqvist and Foote try to tear it up in the A...

 

[Bad Goalie]

Not one uniform answer but traditionally when players have been put in roles they can't handle a cascade of events usually happen...coaches drops them a line, then coach begins to limit minutes and limit their roles and eventually bench them...the player begins to alter their game to stay in the lineup and they stop playing the game that got them to the show in the first place...in that situation there isn't much room to grow as your sole focus is staying in the lineup anyway possible.

The alternative is to let player play their game in lessor league where they are allowed to make mistakes and hone their game in a larger role in all situations.

When you're a rebuilding team the scenario isn't exactly the same...there is usually more leeway to make mistakes...but I think the coach plays a significant factor. We saw Hynes be very short with a lot of players saying things like "they don't get it" in public. Zacha made a few comments I remember after being benched that essentially said "nobody is telling me what I am doing wrong"...Ruff just recently said "it's time to get better or you are going to lose minutes". I think I saw that a couple of days ago.

So if you are young player and the situation is be productive or GTFOH, its absolutely better to be in the AHL learning than getting shit on by a coach trying to keep his job... because the alternative is losing valuable development time under strenuous conditions. Development time that you can never get back

That's a beautiful explanation. Vancouver head coach Willie Desjardins did this in his 3 seasons and Green has been doing this since he arrived next with young players, but Green let's the same mistakes slide with veterans game after game. This coaching double standard further exacerbates the issue with players desparate to stay in the show.

 

[Guttersniped]

wha? What makes you think that the Devils are allowed to release private medical information on someone unless it is hockey-relevent?

The Devils didn't 'release' anything on David Hale's IGA Nephropathy - he just talked about it himself.

You’re still asking people to imagine the existence of a medical exemption that there’s zero proof for.

People can’t prove a negative here so, yes, they cannot prove that he does not have a medical exemption. But it’s just a hypothetical and people don’t have to take that rhetorical argument journey with you.

It’s the same with “you shouldn’t be mad at him because he doesn’t need the vaccine because he had COVID before”. That’s going to convince zero people to change their minds, so I don’t see the point of that either. (Also my Nephew got COVID twice, so I can assure it definitely happens.)

Or people can accept that people will continue to frustrated with Blackwood’s status. And some people will “bash him”. That’s how it is. We can debate team policy and NHL policy and Prudential Arena policy, but the “don’t be angry at Blackwood, because I sympathize with him” debates seem pointless.

I feel like the Blackwood debate has kind of burned itself out. Maybe I’m just already burnt out on it. I know someone who lost both their parents to COVID and I can’t be the only one. I don’t really need to hear non-scientists/non-medical professionals talk about anti-bodies on the team thread. We get it, you support “his personal choice”. You can do that, others don’t.

We can discuss it less if we try. I’m really going to efforting to do it myself. I almost got sucked in immediately again after telling myself I wouldn’t comment on it anymore. So yeah, this will be another attempt to stop, but it is hard. The topic does that to you.

I just would rather stick to things with no actual larger world significance, like ice hockey. We’re all just waiting to see how this screws up our season or if the big dummy will change his mind, it’s all a wait and see at this point.