Devils 2021 training camp thread (news, notes and speculation) - Part III [MOD warning in OP]

[billingtons ghost]

You’re still asking people to imagine the existence of a medical exemption that there’s zero proof for.

People can’t prove a negative here so, yes, they cannot prove that he does not have a medical exemption. But it’s just a hypothetical and people don’t have to take that rhetorical argument journey with you.

It’s the same with “you shouldn’t be mad at him because he doesn’t need the vaccine because he had COVID before”. That’s going to convince zero people to change their minds, so I don’t see the point of that either. (Also my Nephew got COVID twice, so I can assure it definitely happens.)

Or people can accept that people will continue to frustrated with Blackwood’s status. And some people will “bash him”. That’s how it is. We can debate team policy and NHL policy and Prudential Arena policy, but the “don’t be angry at Blackwood, because I sympathize with him” debates seem pointless.

I feel like the Blackwood debate has kind of burned itself out. Maybe I’m just already burnt out on it. I know someone who lost both their parents to COVID and I can’t be the only one. I don’t really need to hear non-scientists/non-medical professionals talk about anti-bodies on the team thread. We get it, you support “his personal choice”. You can do that, others don’t.

We can discuss it less if we try. I’m really going to efforting to do it myself. I almost got sucked in immediately again after telling myself I wouldn’t comment on it anymore. So yeah, this will be another attempt to stop, but it is hard. The topic does that to you.

I just would rather stick to things with no actual larger world significance, like ice hockey. We’re all just waiting to see how this screws up our season or if the big dummy will change his mind, it’s all a wait and see at this point.

yeah, I don't know where the hell you are reading into my post about all of this. Never anywhere did I say I supported his decision. Never anywhere did I say that I support his 'personal choice'. Please stop applying opinions to me that I don't agree with. I entered into the debate late, I said I don't know why he doesn't have the vax, noone knows why he doesn't have the vax except him, and I pretty much support the opinion of NOT convicting people of beliefs they've never expressed, nor condemning them for a stance they are taking when we don't know a damn thing about the 'why' behind it.

I lost my brother-in-law to Covid, my father-in-law to Covid. My wife has been distraught since day1 of this thing. My whole family is vaxxed, locked down, and I believe everyone needs to get the vaccine and are stupid not to. I also believe abortion needs to be legal. I also don't kid myself that these two positions are not at odds with each other and completely hypocritical. And in a country that can still legally stick a needle in your arm to kill you, I believe that others' opinions might count for something - and at least have to be respected whether or not you agree with them.

The thing I don't get about many people these days is that they seemingly can see absolutely no nuance in anything, no grey area. It's pretty much MY OPINION ALONE IS THE ONLY WAY and you can't allow for others' opinions.

I think everyone should be vaxxed. That doesn't stop me from understanding why others might not agree with that position.

 

[Bad Goalie]

If young guys like Mercer and Holtz continue to perform for the rest of camp this is what I’d like to see. If someone else performs really well then we can add them in. None of the PTO’s seem that impressive to me. Vesey wasn’t great yesterday. First guys I would call up are in brackets.

Sharangovich Hughes Holtz
Tatar Hischier Bratt
Zacha Mercer Kuokkonen (or Zacha C)
Wood McLeod johnsson
Foote Boqvist
(Studenic, Thompson, Clarke)

Graves Hamilton
Smith Severson
Siegenthaler Subban
Jaros
(Okhotiuk, Bahl)

Blackwood
Bernier
(Wedgewood)
This lineup would be so exciting

NO! NO! NO!

You don't put guys with 30 NHL games (Foote) in the press box. You put them in the A where they take a regular shift and play PK and/or PP every game, all game situations.

Boqvist has been a pro for 2 seasons and had very little offensive success. He spent parts of the 2 seasons split between the AHL and NHL. His total number of GP is 90. That's not the kind of play that deserves a press box seat either. No player develops waiting for somebody to get hurt and then gets put into the lineup out of position or somebody else has to play out of position in order for this guy to play his regular position. Press box guys need to be versatile so they can just step in.

That's why they have guys like Jankowski and Vesey in camp. They can sit in the press box while Foote and Jesper if need be, take on regular responsibilities in Utica. Many including Jesper may not like it, but gathering moss in the press box won't help either of these guys to develop well enough to move themselves into the lineup and stick. Nobody ever got better eating popcorn and watching others do what they want to do.

Don't even give me the "they are too good for the AHL. they will dominate down there." Very few players ever "DOMINATE" the AHL. I've seen a lot of real good players over my many years watching the AHL and a lot of them ended up in the NHL and many even became stars. You could see the raw talent there and predicting they would make it wasn't rocket science, but they didn't dominate anything and they needed their teammates to get the success they got that led them to their elevation to the show. Some did it 40 games or so, others in a full season, other 1-2 seasons, some even 3, and others did it with an up and down pattern over 2 or 3 seasons (Boqvist?). After 3 seasons the player's chances fall fast.

Another major factor is the talent level on the parent club. An NHL team with a solid lineup doesn't have room for many newcomers unless he is the rare blue chip, can't miss, instant star at the NHL level. They will make room for him. There is often a lot of that up and down thing I mentioned filling in for injuries. When the proof is in the pudding those kids either move up and the someone they replace makes a good trade piece or the parent actually packages the 2 kids who are ready and gets something they feel is key to their playoff success. What they don't do is cut their press box depth players and put the young upstarts there to rust.

Promising kids have to play in one league or the other, but they have to play.

 

[SYWTom]

Do we know the lineup for tomorrow?

 

[billingtons ghost]

NO! NO! NO!

You don't put guys with 30 NHL games (Foote) in the press box. You put them in the A where they take a regular shift and play PK and/or PP every game, all game situations.

...

Another major factor is the talent level on the parent club. An NHL team with a solid lineup doesn't have room for many newcomers unless he is the rare blue chip, can't miss, instant star at the NHL level. They will make room for him. There is often a lot of that up and down thing I mentioned filling in for injuries. When the proof is in the pudding those kids either move up and the someone they replace makes a good trade piece or the parent actually packages the 2 kids who are ready and gets something they feel is key to their playoff success. What they don't do is cut their press box depth players and put the young upstarts there to rust.

Promising kids have to play in one league or the other, but they have to play.

Agree. I'd rather see Foote taking a regular shift on the 4th line with McLeod and Wood, actually....

that said, I'm sure that the rest of the preseason and camp will determine where these guys end up - and pretty much if you need a 13th forward you sign Vesey and sit him in the press box.

 

[Guttersniped]

Not one uniform answer but traditionally when players have been put in roles they can't handle a cascade of events usually happen...coaches drops them a line, then coach begins to limit minutes and limit their roles and eventually bench them...the player begins to alter their game to stay in the lineup and they stop playing the game that got them to the show in the first place...in that situation there isn't much room to grow as your sole focus is staying in the lineup anyway possible.

The alternative is to let player play their game in lessor league where they are allowed to make mistakes and hone their game in a larger role in all situations.

When you're a rebuilding team the scenario isn't exactly the same...there is usually more leeway to make mistakes...but I think the coach plays a significant factor. We saw Hynes be very short with a lot of players saying things like "they don't get it" in public. Zacha made a few comments I remember after being benched that essentially said "nobody is telling me what I am doing wrong"...Ruff just recently said "it's time to get better or you are going to lose minutes". I think I saw that a couple of days ago.

So if you are young player and the situation is be productive or GTFOH, its absolutely better to be in the AHL learning than getting shit on by a coach trying to keep his job... because the alternative is losing valuable development time under strenuous conditions. Development time that you can never get back

Jesus Jim, you’re such a contrarian pain in the ass and then you post spot on, really well written stuff like this. You truly do contain multitudes.

The AHL is about working on aspects of your game, rather than keeping your head above the water.

In the NHL they often kill you for defensive blunders but if you focus on defense, then they get pissed because you aren’t producing so then you start shooting wildly hoping for more shots… There’s a reason a talented prospect can look good for a short time in the NHL and just start floundering.

I can’t see Mercer starting at 3C because he played one shortened year in QMJHL at center. I could be wrong, but guys just don’t start there often from juniors with so little experience.

I don’t have a particular timeline or development plan for any of these players and I’m not a fortune teller. I just want what’s best for these players’ development. There are a lot great forwards who spent season in the AHL when they clearly could have produced to degree in the NHL, the production just wouldn’t have made rushing them worth it.

If Mercer had to back to the Chicoutimi Saguenéens it would be different. The Canadian Juniors rule is awful and the fact that it’s so openly exploitive, the rule exists to protect those leagues “box office”, is gross. Hendrix Lapierre is born was born in February 2002 and Mercer in October 2001. That means Lapierre, after he doesn’t make the Caps line-up, has to go play in what feels like a beer league for a 20 year old top NHL prospect.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

NO! NO! NO!

You don't put guys with 30 NHL games (Foote) in the press box. You put them in the A where they take a regular shift and play PK and/or PP every game, all game situations.

Boqvist has been a pro for 2 seasons and had very little offensive success. He spent parts of the 2 seasons split between the AHL and NHL. His total number of GP is 90. That's not the kind of play that deserves a press box seat either. No player develops waiting for somebody to get hurt and then gets put into the lineup out of position or somebody else has to play out of position in order for this guy to play his regular position. Press box guys need to be versatile so they can just step in.

That's why they have guys like Jankowski and Vesey in camp. They can sit in the press box while Foote and Jesper if need be, take on regular responsibilities in Utica. Many including Jesper may not like it, but gathering moss in the press box won't help either of these guys to develop well enough to move themselves into the lineup and stick. Nobody ever got better eating popcorn and watching others do what they want to do.

Don't even give me the "they are too good for the AHL. they will dominate down there." Very few players ever "DOMINATE" the AHL. I've seen a lot of real good players over my many years watching the AHL and a lot of them ended up in the NHL and many even became stars. You could see the raw talent there and predicting they would make it wasn't rocket science, but they didn't dominate anything and they needed their teammates to get the success they got that led them to their elevation to the show. Some did it 40 games or so, others in a full season, other 1-2 seasons, some even 3, and others did it with an up and down pattern over 2 or 3 seasons (Boqvist?). After 3 seasons the player's chances fall fast.

Another major factor is the talent level on the parent club. An NHL team with a solid lineup doesn't have room for many newcomers unless he is the rare blue chip, can't miss, instant star at the NHL level. They will make room for him. There is often a lot of that up and down thing I mentioned filling in for injuries. When the proof is in the pudding those kids either move up and the someone they replace makes a good trade piece or the parent actually packages the 2 kids who are ready and gets something they feel is key to their playoff success. What they don't do is cut their press box depth players and put the young upstarts there to rust.

Promising kids have to play in one league or the other, but they have to play.

Calm down on all the capitals and exclamation points man it’s way to late at night to be that jacked up about this.

First somebody will be hurt likely within the first couple games and then they’ll get in and teams usually rotate guys in anyways. They’re not gonna sit in the press box very much.
Second, Boqvist has played 4-5 pro seasons and turns 23 this month.

Not sure where I said they’re too good for the AHL I just think in Boqvist case it’s better for his development to stay up and he brings more value than any of the other young guys or guys on PTO’s.
I’d be perfectly happy if they sent Foote down and signed Vesey but I’d be happy if they kept Foote too even if he starts as the 13th or 14th forward.

 

[Bad Goalie]

Calm down on all the capitals and exclamation points man it’s way to late at night to be that jacked up about this.

First somebody will be hurt likely within the first couple games and then they’ll get in and teams usually rotate guys in anyways. They’re not gonna sit in the press box very much.
Second, Boqvist has played 4-5 pro seasons and turns 23 this month.

Not sure where I said they’re too good for the AHL I just think in Boqvist case it’s better for his development to stay up and he brings more value than any of the other young guys or guys on PTO’s.
I’d be perfectly happy if they sent Foote down and signed Vesey but I’d be happy if they kept Foote too even if he starts as the 13th or 14th forward.

To each his own. Agree to disagree.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

To each his own. Agree to disagree.

Sure. Something I was gonna add. I definitely agree that young players need to play but I don’t think they need to play as much as people think. Look at guys in the NCAA. They’re only aloud to play like 34 regular season games. So Luke Hughes is only gonna play 34 regular season games this year and I have no problem with that. As long as there’s a consistent amount of games that player is playing their development will be more than fine.
For a player like Boqvist I think it’s much more valuable for him at this point to be the 13th forward and play 30-40 or quite possibly more NHL games and be with the big club all season than it is for him to play 70 AHL games or whatever a full season is or for him to be bounced back and forth.

I think there’s a lot of value for young guys in being around the proven vets a lot and I think the consistency for a guy like Boqvist in being there the entire time can help him figure out his game and give us a good idea of what we can expect from him going forward.

He can’t play in the NHL the way he does in the AHL. He has good skills.
He just needs to figure out how he can stick in the NHL and what he needs to do to be an impactful player.

 

[Jersey Fan 12]

Wonder why they didn’t post line combinations for the second group after they did for the first. Maybe there’s some cuts that need to be announced.

Amanda is slipping.

 

[Jersey Fan 12]

I know he struggled but I honestly think it's exactly what he needed. I think it was actually beneficial for him to learn as young as possible that just because you could dance through every team you've played against, the NHL is different. He seemed to get a lot of bad habits beat out of him his first year, probably would have been harder if he stuck around just embarrassing kids doing the same things for longer. I think we will find out this year if this theory is right or not.

I thought the opposite for two reasons.

First off, he wasn't one of the team's best players and was overmatched physically. He seemed to be in the NHL due to his draft slot and not on the merit of his game.

Secondly, the situation in New Jersey was a toxic one and it's hard to imagine it was beneficial. It wasn't a coincidence that the bulk of the players who had success last season played in Binghamton the year before (Hughes was too young to do that).

 

[SYWTom]

I thought the opposite for two reasons.

First off, he wasn't one of the team's best players and was overmatched physically. He seemed to be in the NHL due to his draft slot and not on the merit of his game.

Secondly, the situation in New Jersey was a toxic one and it's hard to imagine it was beneficial. It wasn't a coincidence that the bulk of the players who had success last season played in Binghamton the year before (Hughes was too young to do that).

Hughes was drafted out of NTDP he could have played AHL

 

[HyperX]

Hughes was drafted out of NTDP he could have played AHL

He would have scored at or right below PPG at 18 in the A

 

[Bcap88]

This covid stuff is annoying, he doesn’t want to get it and is going to miss 7 games big deal. It’s not your team nor does it effect you personally unless you let it. Next man up

 

[britdevil]

Sharangovich - Hughes - Holtz

That is absolutely ludicrous potential. Let's hope they realise it straight away.

 

[britdevil]

This covid stuff is annoying, he doesn’t want to get it and is going to miss 7 games big deal. It’s not your team nor does it effect you personally unless you let it. Next man up

7 games missed could be the difference between making the playoffs or not.

It's annoying because my man should just get the vaccination. He's a big boy, he'll be fine.

 

[ninetyeight]

Two things (well at least) we need to see before the season.

1. Another game with Holtz Jack & Yegor. Will Alex still look as good and nhl ready.

2. Tatar with Jack and Yegor. Does he have any chemistry and can he do as good as Holtz.

I've seen enough of Mercer, he's our 3C. He already looks better than Mikey (who also didn't look bad at all at the scrimmages).

So depending if Holtz makes the team, our lineup should be:

Zacha Hischier Bratt
Sharangovich Hughes Holtz
Tatar Mercer Kuokkanen
Wood McLeod x

x is whoever, Johnsson Thompson Studenic Boqvist etc

That's three strong lines where you could even split the icetime evenly.

I know Lindy is gonna slot Zacha as the 3C, but I think it's the wrong decision, even if he has a Jack Adams trophy, which I can't even win in the EA Sports games.

 

[BurntToast]

Mercer looks great but we are assuming that they are willing to put him on wing. I don’t see that happening. Why are they experimenting with Zacha? In the end the value of a center is more important than wing. Lastly Mikey isn’t going anywhere, he was one of the better face-off guys, scored 9 goals with 13 min of ice time, with something like 75% defensive zone starts. If you told me the Devils 4th line center would pot 10-15 goals, I would be happy. Maybe they are trying for ultimate balance by making their leading scorer, the third line center. I can see the logic but I prefer Zacha on the wing.

Lastly, I don’t understand Johnsson’s analytics. The guy engages play with little success. It’s not for lack of trying but he rarely wins a puck battle. He is not skilled enough to be a perimeter player and not strong enough to be a checking winger.

 

[Call Me Al]

This covid stuff is annoying, he doesn’t want to get it and is going to miss 7 games big deal. It’s not your team nor does it effect you personally unless you let it. Next man up

unless he, you know, gets covid and is knocked out like last year which torpedoed his performance all season. he doesn’t have a great track record in that respect

 

[devilsblood]

I'd load it up on 1st pp with the shooters. Assuming Holtz and Mercer make it:

pp1
hughes, sharangovich, holtz, nico, hamilton

pp2
mercer, zacha, bratt, tatar, smith

It's a bit of a sticky situation but I do see the reasoning in splitting Nico and Zacha so as to have a legit faceoff guy on each unit.

But split or no split I think Zacha will be on the top unit. He has been our best pp producer over the last couple years, taking him off that unit and playing a rook, and 3 other guys who have never produced to the levels he has doesn't really make sense.

 

[JimEIV]

yeah, I don't know where the hell you are reading into my post about all of this. Never anywhere did I say I supported his decision. Never anywhere did I say that I support his 'personal choice'. Please stop applying opinions to me that I don't agree with. I entered into the debate late, I said I don't know why he doesn't have the vax, noone knows why he doesn't have the vax except him, and I pretty much support the opinion of NOT convicting people of beliefs they've never expressed, nor condemning them for a stance they are taking when we don't know a damn thing about the 'why' behind it.

I lost my brother-in-law to Covid, my father-in-law to Covid. My wife has been distraught since day1 of this thing. My whole family is vaxxed, locked down, and I believe everyone needs to get the vaccine and are stupid not to. I also believe abortion needs to be legal. I also don't kid myself that these two positions are not at odds with each other and completely hypocritical. And in a country that can still legally stick a needle in your arm to kill you, I believe that others' opinions might count for something - and at least have to be respected whether or not you agree with them.

The thing I don't get about many people these days is that they seemingly can see absolutely no nuance in anything, no grey area. It's pretty much MY OPINION ALONE IS THE ONLY WAY and you can't allow for others' opinions.

I think everyone should be vaxxed. That doesn't stop me from understanding why others might not agree with that position.

It's called compassion. And it is non-existent in today's world...Mainly due to two entire generations that have the interpersonal skills of a cyborg.

 

[devilsblood]

Agree. I'd rather see Foote taking a regular shift on the 4th line with McLeod and Wood, actually....

that said, I'm sure that the rest of the preseason and camp will determine where these guys end up - and pretty much if you need a 13th forward you sign Vesey and sit him in the press box.

Only if he earns it, and only if he puts up some points in that role during the season.

I think starting the year in the A is how I would play it.

 

[MtoD]

Thanks - that's great information. I had heard that those with compromised imune systems, or taking imuno suppressant drugs should also be careful and discuss with their doctors whether or not to get the vaccine. One friend of mine fits into that latter category. Is that incorrect? And if so, can you cite your source so that I can pass it on?

I guess I certainly overstated with 'relatively pointless' - thanks for the info.

The 'discuss with your doctor' part is mostly because there may be a way to time the vaccine to work best for those on immunosuppressants. If you have an autoimmune condition and are taking medication to 'quiet' down your immune system, you may develop less of a response to the vaccine so it's important to talk to your doctor to figure out when is best for you to take. In most scenarios, this is probably going to be 'just take it and hope it works well enough because it's not worth stopping your other medication' but if the medication you are on is temporary, you're about to switch, etc... there may be some way to time things better for best response without risking a flare of an underlying disease.

This is more general medical knowledge than anything else and applies to any vaccine. The CDC does list some data for those with underlying medical conditions (specifically autoimmune) here: COVID-19 Vaccination

Overall, decision to get vaccinated is very straightforward for most but certainly be more complicated for some. Absolutely talk to your doctor about it.. medicine is all about benefits vs risks so very much needs to be an individualized decision.

 

[Hisch13r]

Probably has more to do with the mods consolidating every single thing into this toxic mess of a mega thread

Even then going through there doesn't seem to be other threads that are getting much attention either.

 

[Hisch13r]

It's called compassion. And it is non-existent in today's world...Mainly due to two entire generations that have the interpersonal skills of a cyborg.

Some topics don't deserve compassion. This being one of them

 

[Blackjack]

Some topics don't deserve compassion. This being one of them

Thinking about all the compassion required to deliberately increase the risk my teammates, arena staff, and fans have of catching a horrible disease.