Detroit Redwings Downfall

[WarriorofTime]

Weird comment. "If they are too good to bottom out and get 58 points, then why can't they get 99 points?"

Not all rebuilds are equal.

It’s not weird.. Yzerman signed a bunch of mid level free agents and the team mid’d out accordingly.

 

[RandV]

now name all the team with superstars that havent won the cup

As only 1/16 playoff teams can win the Cup in a given year, and the post being responded to put up a list of maybe 20 guys, the more telling stance is how many teams with such players haven't been in playoff contention. And teams that have won without still have a good collection of next tier guys like Vegas with Eichel/Stone/Pietrangelo/etc.

What I find more interesting in terms of a general 'rebuild' question is if these players are so important then how do you get them. Fans tend to hyper focus on tanking hard for a top pick as the only reliable way, but only about half those guys are top 3 picks. It's the most reliable way but it's still a huge gamble and there are other paths to success.

 

[Pavels Dog]

It’s not weird.. Yzerman signed a bunch of mid level free agents and the team mid’d out accordingly.

In 2022 they improved mostly from withhin. I don’t think I’ve seen you ever adress that fact. They didn’t sign anymore noteable FAs than Chicago, Anaheim, SJ etc. have been doing.

 

[SympathyForTheDevils]

A#1 , money n cap space means nothing during this rebuild . and he didnt want the team to be total trash and cultureless , he brought in the type players and people he determined were good for creating the culture and game style he wants . you like many other of the lost here are underestimating how important high draft pix are in the nhl ! yzer has reeled in cossa-dannyson-kasper-mbn-asp all in the 9 to 17 range , and maybe all of them gonna be huge game changers . mean while if he signed better ufa to get into playoffs to only be crushed while spending valuable long term cap space he would have been drafting from say 16 to 22 = lots of very good prospects wouldnt have been there = the future of team seriously lessened . wait n see 4 year from now when cossa-asp-danny-kasper are very important core peices that wouldnt be on a team ran with your logic

There has been a lot of different takes in this thread, from both Wings fans and other fans, but I think you're the only one seriously arguing that the Wings over the past 3 years have been exactly where they want to be. To the point that you're basically arguing against yourself.

If it's mainly the draft that matters, why didn't Yzerman tank harder? Those UFA signings were bad, but they made the team good enough to stay out of the basement. Considering how quickly draft pick value drops after the top-3, there's zero reason to target a pick in the 8-16 range; those picks aren't that much more valuable than the 16-24 picks that playoff teams get, and certainly not worth losing a season over. The Wings would have a significantly better young group if they had bottomed-out for longer; it would be terminally stupid for a team to tank while also deliberately avoiding the bottom-5.

If it's all about "creating the culture", why is Yzerman seeking to tank in the first place (as you're arguing he is)? You know what doesn't help to creating a winning culture? Losing games over and over for years. And I can guarantee you that Ben Chiarot, Andrew Copp and Justin Holl won't magically create a positive "culture" out of that group. If all Yzerman wanted was a few hardworking vets to model pro behavior, he certainly didn't have to commit over 100M on washed castoffs to do it.

You have to pick a lane. The more you try to pick and choose arguments that you think justify Yzerman's mistakes, the more nonsensical your posts become.

 

[VeteranPresence]

In 2022 they improved mostly from withhin.

Where did that “improvement” disappear to, or was it maybe not improvement after all?

 

[Pavels Dog]

Where did that “improvement” disappear to, or was it maybe not improvement after all?

They’ve improved each season. This season looks like a step back but there’s 50+ games remaining. Pretty unlikely they finish in the bottom 5.

 

[deca guard]

There has been a lot of different takes in this thread, from both Wings fans and other fans, but I think you're the only one seriously arguing that the Wings over the past 3 years have been exactly where they want to be. To the point that you're basically arguing against yourself.

If it's mainly the draft that matters, why didn't Yzerman tank harder? Those UFA signings were bad, but they made the team good enough to stay out of the basement. Considering how quickly draft pick value drops after the top-3, there's zero reason to target a pick in the 8-16 range; those picks aren't that much more valuable than the 16-24 picks that playoff teams get, and certainly not worth losing a season over. The Wings would have a significantly better young group if they had bottomed-out for longer; it would be terminally stupid for a team to tank while also deliberately avoiding the bottom-5.

If it's all about "creating the culture", why is Yzerman seeking to tank in the first place (as you're arguing he is)? You know what doesn't help to creating a winning culture? Losing games over and over for years. And I can guarantee you that Ben Chiarot, Andrew Copp and Justin Holl won't magically create a positive "culture" out of that group. If all Yzerman wanted was a few hardworking vets to model pro behavior, he certainly didn't have to commit over 100M on washed castoffs to do it.

You have to pick a lane. The more you try to pick and choose arguments that you think justify Yzerman's mistakes, the more nonsensical your posts become.

ive already completely addressed / explained every question you just brought up , but for some reason your completely ignoring those points ive already covered . and i seriously doubt you even know how good the yzerman picks of pellikka , cossa , augustine , kasper , edvinsson and others are doing ! theres zero reason to have a conversation with somebody that doesnt listen to a word your saying or respect factual performances of prospects . youve judged yzerman to be somebody that doesnt know how to run an nhl club , lmao , and have deemed yourself to know better than him in effort to find happiness in presenting yourself as knowing better . go get your kicks some where else ive zero respect for your opinion in the matter

 

[Dotter]

It’s not weird.. Yzerman signed a bunch of mid level free agents and the team mid’d out accordingly.

If you watched this team play then you'd see those players are below mid. The only thing holding this team up is Larkin, Raymond, Seider, Edvinsson and Debrincat. And the coach Yzerman refused to fire is the biggest difference maker as to why DRWs are bad.

So if you look at the rebuild objectively you'd see Yzerman is bottoming out to the best of his abilities, while still trying to keep the team playing competitive hockey. It's a balance. You'll learn THAT you do not want to build a losing culture ---Biggest mistake in hockey! Look at what the Oilers have done. They still can't shake it. Ottawa, same thing. Losing culture they can't shake. Same with Sabres.

And then you can look at the players Yzerman picked in the 1st round and see he picked some of the best players, even better players selected before his pick. So losing to be 3 or 4 spots higher up the draft helped him ZERO much. Because he walked away with the player he wanted anyhow.

So if the player Yzerman wants is available at #6, then why should he try to lose so bad to have the #2 pick... when he is selecting the #6 draft eligible player anyhow? Makes no sense.

Again, unless you think Yzerman should bury Seider/Raymond/Edvinsson and trade Larkin and Debrincat... Just typing that you makes me thank to the lucky gods you don't work in the NHL in any capacity in any way. LMAO!

No offense, but being an armchair GMs (and terrible one at that in your case) is not a skill I would thrive for.

If Chicago loses the lottery and doesn't get the #1 pick, then I see no path for them to rebuild with Bedard and the mid drafted players they have. And if they do win the lottery, this draft is weak of superstar talent, so again, I would not predict Chicago will be rebuilding they way fans hope. They may have to trade everything and start over again. That's using your logic, of course.

 

[nturn06]

They’ve improved each season. This season looks like a step back but there’s 50+ games remaining. Pretty unlikely they finish in the bottom 5.

Yikes, if after soo many seasons of rebuild "not finishing bottom 5" is an improvement, things are really bad in Detroit.

 

[WarriorofTime]

If you watched this team play then you'd see those players are below mid. The only thing holding this team up is Larkin, Raymond, Seider, Edvinsson and Debrincat. And the coach Yzerman refused to fire is the biggest difference maker as to why DRWs are bad.

They were mid and helped the team push up to mid, now on the back half, they are pushing the team back down as the contracts get further away from when originally signed and the team may be getting worse accordingly. Not generally how rebuild type timelines go.

So if you look at the rebuild objectively you'd see Yzerman is bottoming out to the best of his abilities,

I highly doubt that based on his actions the last few offseasons.

while still trying to keep the team playing competitive hockey. It's a balance. You'll learn THAT you do not want to build a losing culture ---Biggest mistake in hockey! Look at what the Oilers have done. They still can't shake it.

The Oilers, the team that made it to Game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals?

Ottawa, same thing. Losing culture they can't shake.

Then what's Detroit?

Same with Sabres.

Then what's Detroit?

And then you can look at the players Yzerman picked in the 1st round and see he picked some of the best players, even better players selected before his pick. So losing to be 3 or 4 spots higher up the draft helped him ZERO much. Because he walked away with the player he wanted anyhow.

So Yzerman has the jedi power to mindtrick other GMs to not select the players that the Red Wings want? That doesn't even make sense.

So if the player Yzerman wants is available at #6, then why should he try to lose so bad to have the #2 pick... when he is selecting the #6 draft eligible player anyhow? Makes no sense.

What makes no sense is playing willfully ignorant that Number 2 picks on average deliver higher expected value than 6th, 8th, 9th picks. Nobody thinks this.

Again, unless you think Yzerman should bury Seider/Raymond/Edvinsson and trade Larkin and Debrincat... Just typing that you makes me thank to the lucky gods you don't work in the NHL in any capacity in any way. LMAO!

I think Yzerman should have appropriately recognized the team's timeline and planned accordingly to maximize.

No offense, but being an armchair GMs (and terrible one at that in your case) is not a skill I would thrive for.

This is just a personal attack.

If Chicago loses the lottery and doesn't get the #1 pick, then I see no path for them to rebuild with Bedard and the mid drafted players they have. And if they do win the lottery, this draft is weak of superstar talent, so again, I would not predict Chicago will be rebuilding they way fans hope. They may have to trade everything and start over again. That's using your logic, of course.

I notice once backed into a corner, you will often start trying to get off topic and talk about other teams. Not to mention your clear and obvious double standards where you declare the low-end outcomes for other teams while assuming the high-end outcomes for Detroit.

 

[Dotter]

They were mid and helped the team push up to mid, now on the back half, they are pushing the team back down as the contracts get further away from when originally signed and the team may be getting worse accordingly. Not generally how rebuild type timelines go.

The contracts are ending soon. They were nothing more than placeholders, not a players to compete for a cup. They are players just good enough to keeping them from blowouts.

You want to lose 2-1 games, not lose 9-1 games.

I highly doubt that based on his actions the last few offseasons.

Look at his signing. He injects youth to replace mid vets. For example, he traded Maata for a 3rd and upgraded to Edvinsson.

Then what's Detroit?

Rebuilding. Just like Yzerman said he was doing. You are thinking of Ottawa's GM who officially declared the rebuild is over.

So Yzerman has the jedi power to mindtrick other GMs to not select the players that the Red Wings want? That doesn't even make sense.

Based on all evidence I've seen Yzerman has selected the player he wants. The only miss on record is Stutzle when Wings lost the lottery, and drafted the next BEST player in Raymond at #4. - Raymond who was a much needed and amazing player in his own right!

How is it Yzerman's fault he couldn't draft Stutzle when he iced the worst NHL team in modern history? C'mon, man!

Remember Yzerman got criticized for drafting Seider at #6. People like you wanted to tar and feather him. How did that turn out for ya?

What makes no sense is playing willfully ignorant that Number 2 picks on average deliver higher expected value than 6th, 8th, 9th picks. Nobody thinks this.

The point was in recent years... after drafting Edvinsson (who is shaping up to be probably one of the better picks in his draft), DRW were never sniffing top 3 again. Because of his excellent drafting since joining the Wings; Seider Raymond, now Edvinsson... and good trading w/ Debrincat falling in his lap for pennies on the dollar.

We can't in good faith re-draft the Kasper and later drafts yet. Esp when Yzerman overripes talent.

I think Yzerman should have appropriately recognized the team's timeline and planned accordingly to maximize.

He did. Look at when the placeholder contracts expire. It's obvious to any blind person!

This is just a personal attack.

No it's not. We are on a hockey message forum ignorantly slamming teams we hate while not having a clue in the world what the team they are slamming is even doing. It's human nature.

I notice once backed into a corner, you will often start trying to get off topic and talk about other teams. Not to mention your clear and obvious double standards where you declare the low-end outcomes for other teams while assuming the high-end outcomes for Detroit.

I was using your logic to help you understand how you are coming across in this thread. Sometimes to help people understand reality, you have to draw them a picture they can relate with.

I do believe a "thank you" is in order. I'll wait!

 

[RedHawkDown]

It's pretty hard to argue (IMO) that Ottawa or Buffalo are in a similar position to Detroit. Both of these teams have every single one of their top prospects (or almost all) on the NHL team and are still in the gutter. Detroit has the majority of their top picks in Danielson, ASP, Cossa, MBN still coming, in addition to Buchelnikov who should be a key part of the offense. If those guys come in and all fail, then yeah, the rebuild is cooked. Until then the comparison is pretty bad.

 

[VivaLasVegas]

Drafting is nice, but drafting is never more than a crapshoot and everybody else is drafting too.

At some point, you've have to throw the dice and make some high risk/high return shocking trades.

 

[The Nuge]

If you watched this team play then you'd see those players are below mid. The only thing holding this team up is Larkin, Raymond, Seider, Edvinsson and Debrincat. And the coach Yzerman refused to fire is the biggest difference maker as to why DRWs are bad.

So if you look at the rebuild objectively you'd see Yzerman is bottoming out to the best of his abilities, while still trying to keep the team playing competitive hockey. It's a balance. You'll learn THAT you do not want to build a losing culture ---Biggest mistake in hockey! Look at what the Oilers have done. They still can't shake it. Ottawa, same thing. Losing culture they can't shake. Same with Sabres.

And then you can look at the players Yzerman picked in the 1st round and see he picked some of the best players, even better players selected before his pick. So losing to be 3 or 4 spots higher up the draft helped him ZERO much. Because he walked away with the player he wanted anyhow.

So if the player Yzerman wants is available at #6, then why should he try to lose so bad to have the #2 pick... when he is selecting the #6 draft eligible player anyhow? Makes no sense.

Again, unless you think Yzerman should bury Seider/Raymond/Edvinsson and trade Larkin and Debrincat... Just typing that you makes me thank to the lucky gods you don't work in the NHL in any capacity in any way. LMAO!

No offense, but being an armchair GMs (and terrible one at that in your case) is not a skill I would thrive for.

If Chicago loses the lottery and doesn't get the #1 pick, then I see no path for them to rebuild with Bedard and the mid drafted players they have. And if they do win the lottery, this draft is weak of superstar talent, so again, I would not predict Chicago will be rebuilding they way fans hope. They may have to trade everything and start over again. That's using your logic, of course.

Look at 2022. He went out and overpaid for a bunch of UFAs, and brought in Copp, Chiarot, Perron, etc. They proceeded to finish just 5 points ahead of Philly, and those 5 points were the difference between getting Michkov and Danielson. What puts Detroit in a better place right now, Chiarot, Copp, and Danielson or Michkov and close to 10 million in capspace? That’s what people are criticizing Yzerman for.

 

[PattyLafontaine]

now name all the team with superstars that havent won the cup

This is completely irrelveant. 18/20 of the last cup winners had trophy winners. Why would anyone use a build philosphy around a statistical outlier.

 

[PattyLafontaine]

That doesn’t make sense with your list. Debatable if Boston, Vegas. St.Louis would clear that superstar bar, as well as LA (you mention Kopitar but if he’s a superstar you’re missing a bunch of guys that would also count). Carolina and Dallas are contenders and you say they have none. Washington this year? Still counting Ovechkin? Point being - clearly superstars aren’t vital to at least becoming a contender (in your view).

18/20 of the last cup winners would make it fairly clear that trophy winners are needed to win the cup. I excluded Kopitar because at 37 he's no longer a superstar. The same goes with Crosby Malkin etc. Have Dallas and Carolina won the cup? Seems like they haven't and while their windows haven't closed I'm not inclined to believe either of them will.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

It's pretty hard to argue (IMO) that Ottawa or Buffalo are in a similar position to Detroit. Both of these teams have every single one of their top prospects (or almost all) on the NHL team and are still in the gutter. Detroit has the majority of their top picks in Danielson, ASP, Cossa, MBN still coming, in addition to Buchelnikov who should be a key part of the offense. If those guys come in and all fail, then yeah, the rebuild is cooked. Until then the comparison is pretty bad.

These three teams are grouped together because they have the three longest playoff droughts in the league. Buffalo at 13 years, Detroit at 8, and Ottawa at 7.

And the young players joining the team may not result in a jump in the standings right away since they'll be rookies.

 

[RedHawkDown]

These three teams are grouped together because they have the three longest playoff droughts in the league. Buffalo at 13 years, Detroit at 8, and Ottawa at 7.

And the young players joining the team may not result in a jump in the standings right away since they'll be rookies.

That's very fair. Just don't think these 3 teams are in the same position going forward. If Detroit's young guys enter the team and make 0 impact in teh standings, then I'll agree.

 

[WF19]

I really thought they would be a lot better this year than last and I do think that Lalonde has completely lost the room. Why isn't there a coaching change yet? Maybe it's not the worst thing to happen if we end up a draft lottery team? We have a decent core locking up with Raymond,Larkin, Seider. Lock up Ed, hopefully Cossa hits. Trade deadline comes, Yzerman unloads as much as he can to get more draft capital, Score a couple good players in the draft or start trying to use the capital and land a bigger fish? Next year we have the possibility of ASP at least coming to NA, the cap will rise and we are rid of some contracts.

Bring a whole new coaching staff and start over next year. I mean it's gotta be the only explanation that Lalonde still has a job is that Yzerman just wrote this year off. Tanguay and Boughner can also kick rocks.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

As only 1/16 playoff teams can win the Cup in a given year, and the post being responded to put up a list of maybe 20 guys, the more telling stance is how many teams with such players haven't been in playoff contention. And teams that have won without still have a good collection of next tier guys like Vegas with Eichel/Stone/Pietrangelo/etc.

What I find more interesting in terms of a general 'rebuild' question is if these players are so important then how do you get them. Fans tend to hyper focus on tanking hard for a top pick as the only reliable way, but only about half those guys are top 3 picks. It's the most reliable way but it's still a huge gamble and there are other paths to success.

Agree that it's a gamble - but the other recent "paths to success" seem to be based around taking advantage of the Sabres to get a Conn Smythe caliber player for about $.25 on the dollar.

Obviously - there is some sarcasm there - but all good teams have elite difference makers surrounded by a strong supporting cast that are either drafted & developed, traded for, or signed as FA's. The difference makers are rarely traded and very rarely make it to UFA status, which means the most reliable way to them is draft and development.

 

[SirKillalot]

Really? Chicago 1st picks since 2020

Levshunov
Boisvert
Vanacker
Bedard
Moore
Korchinski
Nazar
Rinzel
Allan
Reichel

It's one of the saddest list you'll ever see. Also they don't have gems like Hutson or Fowler with latter rounds picks, and they made zero valuable trade/UFA signing. Bedard might actually surpass Jeff Skinner record for games played without making the playoffs.

All of these were good picks, idk what you be smoking.
Just let them use their time to develop.

 

[Pizza!Pizza!]

I saw Steve Yzerman at a grocery store in Clinton Township, MI yesterday. I told him how cool it was to meet him in person, but I didn’t want to be a douche and bother him and ask him for photos or anything. He said, “Oh, like you’re doing now?” I was taken aback, and all I could say was “Huh?” but he kept cutting me off and going “huh? huh? huh?” and closing his hand shut in front of my face. I walked away and continued with my shopping, and I heard him chuckle as I walked off. When I came to pay for my stuff up front I saw him trying to walk out the doors with like fifteen Milky Ways in his hands without paying.

The girl at the counter was very nice about it and professional, and was like “Sir, you need to pay for those first.” At first he kept pretending to be tired and not hear her, but eventually turned back around and brought them to the counter.

When she took one of the bars and started scanning it multiple times, he stopped her and told her to scan them each individually “to prevent any electrical infetterence,” and then turned around and winked at me. I don’t even think that’s a word. After she scanned each bar and put them in a bag and started to say the price, he kept interrupting her by yawning really loudly.

 

[Jumptheshark]

I reject the premise of this thread, When was the last time the wings made in the playoffs? 10 season--so that is when their down fell happened.

For me it is more about their drafting and development

 

[StreetHawk]

I reject the premise of this thread, When was the last time the wings made in the playoffs? 10 season--so that is when their down fell happened.

For me it is more about their drafting and development

Multiple teams it's been a long time between PO.

Buffalo, not since 2011. 13 years now going on 14.
Ottawa, not since 2017, 7 years going on 8.
Detroit, not since 2016, 8 years going on 9.
San Jose, not since 2019, 5 years going on 6.
Even Chicago, last real PO was in 2017. Missed in 2018 and 2019. When Covid hit, had 72 points in 70 games. Nash/Van were tied for 8th at 78 points in 69 games. With Min 77 in 69 and AZ with 74 in 70 ahead of them as well. Chicago really like Ott at 7 years going on 8 without the play-in as the #12 seed.

 

[Fatass]

I reject the premise of this thread, When was the last time the wings made in the playoffs? 10 season--so that is when their down fell happened.

For me it is more about their drafting and development

Imo the Wings drafting under Yzermsn has been good. There just haven’t been the elite guys there when he’s picked. He’s got his picks right though. Hard to draft what isn’t there.