Detroit Redwings Downfall

[Hallonbroder]

Again, meaningless to discuss unless you define what you mean by franchise forward. Because yes, traditionally franchise player is basically exactly what Larkin is to Detroit. Your own definition may be something different however.

Ah ok , fair enough, and true.

 

[Sky04]

In another 5 or 6 years they will get there

 

[PattyLafontaine]

I mean you basically describe a prospect without any true flaws except for maybe the goal-scoring being a little lacking.

Idk. I'm not personally writing down Danielson's name as a future 1st line center. But I'm at least writing him in as a center, something that can't be said for a ton of guys drafted after him.

Can you first define "franchise forward" and "A tier forward prospect"? And stick with those definitions?

Because there's no point if it's just your opinion from case to case which players count. Which it likely is, considering you don't view Larkin and Raymond as franchise forwards.

Neither Larkin or Raymond are cornerstone players. They're good player but neither is a trophy winner or a player who you build around if you are starting a franchise.

Franchise/cornerstone forwards/defensemen/goalies by team

ANA: None, Sennecke is interesting but still unknown.
BOS: Pasternack
BUF: None, Dahlin is potentially one, but not sure if his game will reach that point.
CGY: None
CAR: None, Necas is having that type of year so far so perhaps
CHI: None
COL: MacKinnon, Makar, On the Cusp: Rantanen
CBJ: None, Werenski is having an excellent year and could be breaking out
DAL: None
DET: None, Seider is interesting, but not there yet
EDM: McDavid, Draisaitl
FLA: Barkov, Tkachuk, Bobrovsky (although he's near the end despite still being good at 36) -Reinhart is close
LAK: None, Kotiar was in his prime as was Doughty
MIN: Kaprizov
MTL: None
NAS: None
NJD: None, Jack Hughes is on the cusp
NYI: None
NYR: Panarin (how much is longer is a good question), Fox, Shesterkin
OTT: None, Stutzle is showing some potential and is still only 22
PHI: None, Michkov has certainly shown strong signs of being the next big time winger
PIT: None, Crosty, Malkin, and Karlsson all were
SJS: None, Celebrini is looking quite intriguing going forward
SEA: None
STL: None
TBL: Kucherov, Hedman, Vasilevskiy
TOR: Matthews Marner is arguable
UTA: None
VAN: Hughes Petterson on the cusp
VGK: None

 

[Czechboy]

Neither Larkin or Raymond are cornerstone players. They're good player but neither is a trophy winner or a player who you build around if you are starting a franchise.

Franchise/cornerstone forwards/defensemen/goalies by team

ANA: None, Sennecke is interesting but still unknown.
BOS: Pasternack
BUF: None, Dahlin is potentially one, but not sure if his game will reach that point.
CGY: None
CAR: None, Necas is having that type of year so far so perhaps
CHI: None
COL: MacKinnon, Makar, On the Cusp: Rantanen
CBJ: None, Werenski is having an excellent year and could be breaking out
DAL: None
DET: None, Seider is interesting, but not there yet
EDM: McDavid, Draisaitl
FLA: Barkov, Tkachuk, Bobrovsky (although he's near the end despite still being good at 36) -Reinhart is close
LAK: None, Kotiar was in his prime as was Doughty
MIN: Kaprizov
MTL: None
NAS: None
NJD: None, Jack Hughes is on the cusp
NYI: None
NYR: Panarin (how much is longer is a good question), Fox, Shesterkin
OTT: None, Stutzle is showing some potential and is still only 22
PHI: None, Michkov has certainly shown strong signs of being the next big time winger
PIT: None, Crosty, Malkin, and Karlsson all were
SJS: None, Celebrini is looking quite intriguing going forward
SEA: None
STL: None
TBL: Kucherov, Hedman, Vasilevskiy
TOR: Matthews Marner is arguable
UTA: None
VAN: Hughes Petterson on the cusp
VGK: None

I'd add Bedard as a future cornerstone forward despite his stats.

I didn't see Helle and Wpg.

Phi with Konecny?

My bias may be showing but Dostal, to me, is a cornerstone goalie to build around.

 

[gritdash60]

In another 5 or 6 years they will get there

So it ONLY takes 12 years for a rebuild, also what is "there"? To playoffs?

 

[Pavels Dog]

Neither Larkin or Raymond are cornerstone players. They're good player but neither is a trophy winner or a player who you build around if you are starting a franchise.

Franchise/cornerstone forwards/defensemen/goalies by team

ANA: None, Sennecke is interesting but still unknown.
BOS: Pasternack
BUF: None, Dahlin is potentially one, but not sure if his game will reach that point.
CGY: None
CAR: None, Necas is having that type of year so far so perhaps
CHI: None
COL: MacKinnon, Makar, On the Cusp: Rantanen
CBJ: None, Werenski is having an excellent year and could be breaking out
DAL: None
DET: None, Seider is interesting, but not there yet
EDM: McDavid, Draisaitl
FLA: Barkov, Tkachuk, Bobrovsky (although he's near the end despite still being good at 36) -Reinhart is close
LAK: None, Kotiar was in his prime as was Doughty
MIN: Kaprizov
MTL: None
NAS: None
NJD: None, Jack Hughes is on the cusp
NYI: None
NYR: Panarin (how much is longer is a good question), Fox, Shesterkin
OTT: None, Stutzle is showing some potential and is still only 22
PHI: None, Michkov has certainly shown strong signs of being the next big time winger
PIT: None, Crosty, Malkin, and Karlsson all were
SJS: None, Celebrini is looking quite intriguing going forward
SEA: None
STL: None
TBL: Kucherov, Hedman, Vasilevskiy
TOR: Matthews Marner is arguable
UTA: None
VAN: Hughes Petterson on the cusp
VGK: None

So to me you are describing ”superstars” which is a highly exclusive group and not even all cup winners have them.

 

[ClydeLee]

You like those three teams because they had lottery luck. Wings had no lottery luck, they were in fact the most unlucky team in the league.

That said Yzerman still, against all against him, scored top 2 and top 3 talent; Seider and Raymond. Edvinsson might prove to be something amazing in a redraft in the near future. Too early to predict.

That's amazing drafting!

Red wings didn't try to tank according to the constant statements of your fans and gm.

You can't say that is the case with san jose and Chicgao at all. You can't blame lottery luck if you weren't even trying to deliberate focus on winning the lottery.

Yes they wound up 4th overall after finishing last, San Jose drafted 4th 2 years ago. How did they treat the teams focus that offseason? There's the difference

 

[Dotter]

Red wings didn't try to tank according to the constant statements of your fans and gm.

You can't say that is the case with san jose and Chicgao at all. You can't blame lottery luck if you weren't even trying to deliberate focus on winning the lottery.

Yes they wound up 4th overall after finishing last, San Jose drafted 4th 2 years ago. How did they treat the teams focus that offseason? There's the difference

Tanking isn't the correct word. Tanking would mean trading Larkin and just signing players like copp, compher, Petry, Holl, etc along with hiring a bad coach.

Since Yzerman didn't trade larkin, but did do all the other stuff, along with trade Hronek and Bertuzzi... then signed a bunch of mid players. So while it's not "tanking", it is just "not trying to win games".

I think Yzerman is trying to balance not building a losing culture along with good drafting. Wings have been getting incrementally better and missed the playoffs last season by 0 points. While they missed the playoffs, we did learn Raymond and Seider are both clutch.

 

[deca guard]

Claiming Yzerman made those signings to intentionally keep the Red Wings bad is just an insane take. And if he's been trying to suck for higher picks he's done a pretty piss poor job of that too.

my opinion of an insane take = not believing that gms stay away from making big commitments to expensive ufa because they dont think their club has a shot at doing much in playoffs . and that what would be better for their fans is remaining mediocre for several years to save future cap that would have to have been commited to big ufa contracts whom are usually over payed n termed , and whom would have minimally improved team doing nothing but worsening draft position thusly lessening long term success

 

[ClydeLee]

Tanking isn't the correct word. Tanking would mean trading Larkin and just signing players like copp, compher, Petry, Holl, etc along with hiring a bad coach.

Since Yzerman didn't trade larkin, but did do all the other stuff, along with trade Hronek and Bertuzzi... then signed a bunch of mid players. So while it's not "tanking", it is just "not trying to win games".

I think Yzerman is trying to balance not building a losing culture along with good drafting. Wings have been getting incrementally better and missed the playoffs last season by 0 points. While they missed the playoffs, we did learn Raymond and Seider are both clutch.

He traded those guys, Mantha too, like too late to make a big draft impact. He got Seider-Raymond... that's where I have always judged his moves. He waited 1 or 2 years to decide on his timeline and guys and moved Hronek and Bertuzzi. Had he in 21. They could of gotten better high end prospect odds.

Then now they could be where they were 2 years ago in a hopeful for playoffs soon team.. with a stronger looking prospect pool.

 

[PattyLafontaine]

So to me you are describing ”superstars” which is a highly exclusive group and not even all cup winners have them.

of the last 20 cup winner 18 of 20 had at least one superstar.

I'd add Bedard as a future cornerstone forward despite his stats.

I didn't see Helle and Wpg.

Phi with Konecny?

My bias may be showing but Dostal, to me, is a cornerstone goalie to build around.

Forgot WPG which I would include Helle

 

[norrisnick]

If only 8 of 32 teams have the requisite level of player, then it doesn't really seem to be that big of an issue not having one... Especially when only 3 of those 8 teams have won anything with them.

 

[SympathyForTheDevils]

do you understand english ? the way the draft works and how gigantically important it is to a teams success puts gms into positions where they dont want to get just good enough to make playoffs propelling selves further away from better players earlier in draft . jumping the gun like whiny fans cry for does nothing but make a team mediocre longer because they are only able to draft lesser players . yzerman damn well knew these average ufa he signed wouldnt lead to great success , but he had to keep the team at this level in order to load up on better prospects til the season comes where he goes all out . but ego trippers want to announce how smart they are by criticizing a top gun gm like yzerman when you dont know what your talking about ! what if yzerman hadnt signed copp , jt , chariot the past several years instead signing better players to longer term n higher cap hits ? for one it would have made the wings better but not contenders , ending up giving fans a little fun but at the cost of draft position thusly making teams long term destiny lesser . and the cap hits to better ufa would have cost future cap space needed to sign guys like seider n raymond . and with lesser prospects on board the long term futures lesser for the sake of getting into the playoffs only to get crushed . just because the league doesnt allow gms and media (puppets of the league) to talk about this matter doesnt mean that it isnt the reality of the situation . but keep schooling me you got it all figured out

Ok, so you're seriously asserting that Yzerman signed those UFAs knowing they'd be bad, because he intended to tank and get a better draft position? And that it's genius because that way he managed to avoid signing good UFAs that would have improved the team too much? But that he still spent a ton of money and cap space on UFAs because... reasons?

...

And you never considered that Yzerman could have achieved a more effective tank by just doing what Chicago did, by just filling out the roster with dirt-cheap replacement-level players? That it would have led to a worse team, thus a better draft position, all without wasting a ton of money and cap space that could be used to get more assets?

Ironically, your insane spin on those signings makes Yzerman sounds much stupider than he is in reality. He made a few bad UFA signings; it happens, not the end of the world. If this was truly the calculated result of a galaxy-brain plan to keep the team bad while blowing as much money as possible, Yzerman should have been fired, and possibly checked for signs of early cognitive decline. Luckily for the WIngs, it,s almost assuredly not the case.

 

[WarriorofTime]

You like those three teams because they had lottery luck. Wings had no lottery luck, they were in fact the most unlucky team in the league.

2019-20: 31/31
2020-21: 27/31, with it known an expansion team was joining and picking in the 2021 Draft
2021-22: 25/32
2022-23: 24/32
2023-24: 18/32

The issue isn't so much "lotto luck" as Yzerman not having the stomach to fully bottom out and tank more than one year. Based on the timeline you identified, it doesn't make sense that he wouldn't hav been more willing to bottom out the team for longer.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Right... except I haven't made up a single player.

But sure, I totally agree with you. There's zero reason why any good player in the NHL would want to sign up for Yzerman's failed rebuild.

Happy now?

Once again… please name all the great UFAs who were even available?

 

[deca guard]

Ok, so you're seriously asserting that Yzerman signed those UFAs knowing they'd be bad, because he intended to tank and get a better draft position? And that it's genius because that way he managed to avoid signing good UFAs that would have improved the team too much? But that he still spent a ton of money and cap space on UFAs because... reasons?

...

And you never considered that Yzerman could have achieved a more effective tank by just doing what Chicago did, by just filling out the roster with dirt-cheap replacement-level players? That it would have led to a worse team, thus a better draft position, all without wasting a ton of money and cap space that could be used to get more assets?

Ironically, your insane spin on those signings makes Yzerman sounds much stupider than he is in reality. He made a few bad UFA signings; it happens, not the end of the world. If this was truly the calculated result of a galaxy-brain plan to keep the team bad while blowing as much money as possible, Yzerman should have been fired, and possibly checked for signs of early cognitive decline. Luckily for the WIngs, it,s almost assuredly not the case.

A#1 , money n cap space means nothing during this rebuild . and he didnt want the team to be total trash and cultureless , he brought in the type players and people he determined were good for creating the culture and game style he wants . you like many other of the lost here are underestimating how important high draft pix are in the nhl ! yzer has reeled in cossa-dannyson-kasper-mbn-asp all in the 9 to 17 range , and maybe all of them gonna be huge game changers . mean while if he signed better ufa to get into playoffs to only be crushed while spending valuable long term cap space he would have been drafting from say 16 to 22 = lots of very good prospects wouldnt have been there = the future of team seriously lessened . wait n see 4 year from now when cossa-asp-danny-kasper are very important core peices that wouldnt be on a team ran with your logic

 

[deca guard]

of the last 20 cup winner 18 of 20 had at least one superstar.


Forgot WPG which I would include Helle

now name all the team with superstars that havent won the cup

 

[Dotter]

2019-20: 31/31
2020-21: 27/31, with it known an expansion team was joining and picking in the 2021 Draft
2021-22: 25/32
2022-23: 24/32
2023-24: 18/32

The issue isn't so much "lotto luck" as Yzerman not having the stomach to fully bottom out and tank more than one year. Based on the timeline you identified, it doesn't make sense that he wouldn't hav been more willing to bottom out the team for longer.

Hard to tank when you have Larkin, Seider and Raymond. Are you saying Yzerman should have traded/buried them?

Not one UFA move indicated "win now" mode, but rather "warm bodies" to fill slots/placeholders.

Not only is it difficult to bottom out, it's even harder to win the #1 draft pick. Your team did it once. And might do it again because Bedard sucks. But that means your #1 had to bust for that to happen. And your team could just as likely not win the lottery despite sucking so bad....

Stay the course? That's what Oilers did for like 2 decades before McDavid, and still no cup to show for it.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Hard to tank when you have Larkin, Seider and Raymond. Are you saying Yzerman should have traded/buried them?

If these players are untankable why couldn’t they make the playoffs with them? You’re basically saying the exact plan has been to mid out every year 2021-22 through 2024-25 which is ridiculous. That’s generally seen as the worst spot to be. Let alone for four years.

 

[_vivelequebec_]

FWIW - I like the Chicago, Ana and SJ rebuilds a lot more than Montreal and Detroit.

Really? Chicago 1st picks since 2020

Levshunov
Boisvert
Vanacker
Bedard
Moore
Korchinski
Nazar
Rinzel
Allan
Reichel

It's one of the saddest list you'll ever see. Also they don't have gems like Hutson or Fowler with latter rounds picks, and they made zero valuable trade/UFA signing. Bedard might actually surpass Jeff Skinner record for games played without making the playoffs.

 

[Czechboy]

Really? Chicago 1st picks since 2020

Levshunov
Boisvert
Vanacker
Bedard
Moore
Korchinski
Nazar
Rinzel
Allan
Reichel

It's one of the saddest list you'll ever see. Also they don't have gems like Hutson or Fowler with latter rounds picks, and they made zero valuable trade/UFA signing. Bedard might actually surpass Jeff Skinner record for games played without making the playoffs.

Higher on Reicehl than most
MUCH higher on Bedard than you are... he is at his lowest value and I'm saying he's a stud in the future

 

[_vivelequebec_]

I'm astonished with SJ rebuild tho. A bit of luck for sure (Dickinson falling and PIT pick one spot away from being protected, Askarov being relatively cheap, not losing the lottery) but they already have almost every pieces to be contenders within 5 years. Schaefer or Martone would be the icing on the cake..

 

[norrisnick]

If these players are untankable why couldn’t they make the playoffs with them? You’re basically saying the exact plan has been to mid out every year 2021-22 through 2024-25 which is ridiculous. That’s generally seen as the worst spot to be. Let alone for four years.

Because there is a massive difference between being bad enough to be bottom 3 and good enough to make the playoffs. 30+ standings points most seasons.

 

[Pavels Dog]

of the last 20 cup winner 18 of 20 had at least one superstar.

That doesn’t make sense with your list. Debatable if Boston, Vegas. St.Louis would clear that superstar bar, as well as LA (you mention Kopitar but if he’s a superstar you’re missing a bunch of guys that would also count). Carolina and Dallas are contenders and you say they have none. Washington this year? Still counting Ovechkin? Point being - clearly superstars aren’t vital to at least becoming a contender (in your view).

If these players are untankable why couldn’t they make the playoffs with them? You’re basically saying the exact plan has been to mid out every year 2021-22 through 2024-25 which is ridiculous. That’s generally seen as the worst spot to be. Let alone for four years.

Being bottom 10 is hardly the ”mid”. Also they’re bottom 5-ish right now. ”Four years” in the ”mid” is a gross exaggeration and twisting of reality.

 

[Dotter]

If these players are untankable why couldn’t they make the playoffs with them? You’re basically saying the exact plan has been to mid out every year 2021-22 through 2024-25 which is ridiculous. That’s generally seen as the worst spot to be. Let alone for four years.

Weird comment. "If they are too good to bottom out and get 58 points, then why can't they get 99 points?"

Not all rebuilds are equal.