CXLVI - Future of Coyotes up in air after Tempe rejects arena deal - will remain at Mullet Arena for 2023-24, looking at Fiesta Mall site in Mesa

[aqib]

Bos, phi, Stl like phx did 9 figure renovations. So long as the structure is sound there wouldn’t be a need to tear down. Suns gave the arena management rights so up to whoever is the owner at the time to decide if he wants an nhl team or not.

In 2037 the arena will be 45 years old so you're probably looking at a new venue.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Mismanagement as in they put the arena in a terrible location plus bad product.

If NHL works in Dallas and Tampa not really sure why Arizona can't work with right formula.

I think the current (and IMO, correct perception) isn't that hockey in Arizona itself can't work, it's that the Coyotes as a franchise can't work. Too far gone kind of thing.

 

[aqib]

Different time.

US was in a recession, with Arizona and Nevada getting hit the hardest with the housing bubble. You weren't going to find many big hitters looking to invest their other than the vultures and flippers.

BTW.... Moyes had basically walked away from the Coyotes. Turned the keys over to the NHL to run in November of 2008. Within a few months Gary Bettman arranged to have Jerry Reinsdorf buy the Coyotes. But Moyes still was the legal owner and was conned into putting the Coyotes into bankruptcy by Richard Rodier, (on behalf of Jim Balsillie.) because he was convinced by Rodier he could get a bigger return. This all went down the day of the 2009 Draft. Bettman was on a plane with the paperwork in hand.

Now what wasn't known at the time was Moyes had taken out an $80 million loan from Michael Dell's financing company to cover losses from his trucking and transportation companies.... and used the Coyotes as the collateral. Which violated NHL bylaws. Plus... he had Gretzky on an $8 million/yr personal services contract, and tossed that onto the franchise books before he dumped them into BK.

So no..... Moyes wasn't selling for relocation. He was conned into participating in Balsillie's scheme. The same one he tried with Nashville when Craig Leipold owned them.

Yeah he was conned. It's not like the fact that Balsillie offered over $200 million while Reinsdorf wasn't offering anywhere close to that.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

I think the current (and IMO, correct perception) isn't that hockey in Arizona itself can't work, it's that the Coyotes as a franchise can't work. Too far gone kind of thing.

Can’t disagree with this

 

[Fatass]

I am wondering how much of the issue is due to Meruelo (SP?)? I do not know much about him, but what I have heard he seems like a sleezy businessman. Some will say he is being smart, most will say what he does is highly unethical. Would they be having this issue if the owners of the Suns, Dbacks, or Cardinals bought the team?


They may desperately want Houston, but the only potential owner for a franchise in Houston is not desperate to get a team. He is interested, but he is only interested on his terms. So, NHL would have to broker a deal in which Fertita thinks he is basically stealing the team.

And will Meurello sell his team to Fertita for a much lower price than he could to Quebec? Seems the NHL will need to manipulate the numbers to satisfy both Muerello and Fertita, and that will likely cost the league (the other owners) a lot of money. Don’t think the recent expansion club owners will be too happy subsidizing a Coyote sale after just spending 650 mil to get their clubs. Bettman definitely has a complicated mess to clean up. That’s likely why the league announced (soon after the vote was no) the Coyotes would play in the college rink for next season.

 

[ponder719]

I think the current (and IMO, correct perception) isn't that hockey in Arizona itself can't work, it's that the Coyotes as a franchise can't work. Too far gone kind of thing.

100%, Arizona can work. I try not to take a position on whether the Coyotes can be salvaged, I don't want to see teams taken from their fanbase where possible, but if it can't be made to work, the NHL could do themselves a world of good trying to talk Mat Ishbia into locking in an expansion team at current prices, set to take the ice in, say, 2037 sounds like a good round number, with modern expansion rules in place. That would give him control of two teams, and a ton of leverage, going into negotiations with Phoenix for a state-of-the-art dual-sport replacement for the Footprint Center, and plenty of time for the air to clear and to hopefully develop a bit of excitement for the return of the sport, divorced from the chaos of the past.

 

[patnyrnyg]

And will Meurello sell his team to Fertita for a much lower price than he could to Quebec? Seems the NHL will need to manipulate the numbers to satisfy both Muerello and Fertita, and that will likely cost the league (the other owners) a lot of money. Don’t think the recent expansion club owners will be too happy subsidizing a Coyote sale after just spending 650 mil to get their clubs. Bettman definitely has a complicated mess to clean up. That’s likely why the league announced (soon after the vote was no) the Coyotes would play in the college rink for next season.

Having a vision of something I have seen in real estate. Fertita pays $2Billion with a $1.8Billion seller concession. On paper, the sale goes down as $2B.

 

[TheLegend]

The poster I was replying to was talking about how similar the situations in Nashville and Arizona are, I was saying that there is a very important distinction between the two in that local people stepped up every time the Preds needed it and Arizona has relied on whatever misfits Bettman could get to bite.

I believe every group who bought the Coyotes, except Meruelo, would have been bound to keep them there for 7 years as part of their purchase agreement too. Not sure any of them lasted more than 4 years though.

The only thing similar with Arizona an Nashville was how Balsillie tried to poach them.

And Meruelo never had to sign a 7-year no move agreement.

 

[MMC]

 

[GindyDraws]

Suns got a $260 mill reno around 2020. New lease added 15 years on top of the one that was due to expire in 2022. Lease is then due up in 2037.

Only way another nhl team lands in PHX is if the owner of the suns at the time wants one. Not every nba is going to be like the ones making noise like in Sacramento and Utah about a team. Others like in Houston, Atl, Mil, have been quiet to lukewarm on the idea.

There's also the possibility of some of those cities and the ones who could make the deal happen not want to come off like vultures. They would like an NHL team but know it'll be at the cost of moving the Coyotes so have to wait until the timing is right for them to sound like they're being heroic instead of opportunistic.

 

[PredsHead]

The only thing similar with Arizona an Nashville was how Balsillie tried to poach them.

And Meruelo never had to sign a 7-year no move agreement.

I understand Meruelo didn't have to sign a no movement agreement, that is why my post says everyone except Meruelo had to agree to that.

 

[StreetHawk]

Having a vision of something I have seen in real estate. Fertita pays $2Billion with a $1.8Billion seller concession. On paper, the sale goes down as $2B.

NHL to Fertitia from what I can tell would be a portfolio addition not a passion purchase.

Numbers need to make sense to him vs paying what the nhl wants. Would have to see if there is a number that works for both sides.

 

[TheLegend]

Yeah he was conned. It's not like the fact that Balsillie offered over $200 million while Reinsdorf wasn't offering anywhere close to that.

And he offered Glendale $50 million as a consolation prize.

Balsillie wanted an team in Hamilton. He knew the value of a team there was much higher than in Arizona at the time. The league was forced to show that in BK court.

But the NHL didn't want the situation of a team running out on a 6-year old publicly funded building, and having rogue owners coming in through the side door.

There was a lot going on here, so you can't just ignore the context and keep cherry picking items to make some sort of point.

 

[TheLegend]

I understand Meruelo didn't have to sign a no movement agreement, that is why my post says everyone except Meruelo had to agree to that.

There's no knowledge that IceArizona or Barroway ever had to sign that agreement either.

 

[PredsHead]

There's no knowledge that IceArizona or Barroway ever had to sign that agreement either.

Pretty sure its in the NHL by-laws that new owners have to sign one, it made news when Meruelo was given an exemption. I believe when Meruelo bought the team it was reported that the reason Barroway kept his stake was that it was the NHL's reasoning for allowing Meruelo to bypass the seven year rule.

 

[JimAnchower]

Some interesting choices for Arizona, including in Argentina, Honduras, Manitoba, Nebraska, and Louisiana.

Arizona (disambiguation) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[TheLegend]

Pretty sure its in the NHL by-laws that new owners have to sign one, it made news when Meruelo was given an exemption. I believe when Meruelo bought the team it was reported that the reason Barroway kept his stake was that it was the NHL's reasoning for allowing Meruelo to bypass the seven year rule.

I just said Meruelo didn't sign one. Craig Morgan confirmed it months ago.

"I believe it was reported" = rumor

 

[TheGreenTBer]

Honestly I kind of like that the coyotes' social media team has just gone full shitposter. Embrace it.

Some interesting choices for Arizona, including in Argentina, Honduras, Manitoba, Nebraska, and Louisiana.

Arizona (disambiguation) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Dude one of them is an asteroid! 793 Arizona.

I would buy the shit out of an Arizona Asteroids jersey.

 

[1CasualFan]

Again the Coyotes have been sold several times since then and no one local has stepped forward to buy them or expressed interest in doing so.

The big difference between Nashville and Arizona is that every time Nashville was in trouble, a group of local investors has come forward to give the team a chance.

That seems completely irrelevant. Majority of pro sports franchises do not have "local" owners. Hell, the Sharks owner isnt even from this continent. For every Bob Kraft that buys the local team, there's a dozen Jerry Jones' that come from elsewhere into the market.

I mean, I can understand if you feel some kind of pride that Tom Cigarran made his fortune in Tennesse and then decided to buy the Preds. But in the context of the Business of Professional Sports, it's hard to think of something less relevant than "local" owners.

 

[1CasualFan]

Meanwhile, Vegas has been a model franchise...this is unreal.

Hi Apples, I'm Oranges. How are you today?

 

[ponder719]

I may be the only person on the planet whose brain goes here, but now I have this stuck in my head...

 

[LadyStanley]

'No factual basis' to Coyotes' reported complaints to NHLPA

A report in The New York Post detailed that Coyotes players had allegedly filed multiple grievances with the NHLPA over the course of the season on a range of issues.

sports.yahoo.com

Daly: only (official) grievance/complaint was construction delays.

 

[PredsHead]

That seems completely irrelevant. Majority of pro sports franchises do not have "local" owners. Hell, the Sharks owner isnt even from this continent. For every Bob Kraft that buys the local team, there's a dozen Jerry Jones' that come from elsewhere into the market.

I mean, I can understand if you feel some kind of pride that Tom Cigarran made his fortune in Tennesse and then decided to buy the Preds. But in the context of the Business of Professional Sports, it's hard to think of something less relevant than "local" owners.

I'm not sure about the rest of the pro sports but I believe a majority of NHL owners have some local ties to the area their team is in. Also the majority of pro sports teams haven't had relocation rumors swirling around for 15 years either. One of the big reasons often listed in why the Coyotes have not been able to find their footing over that time is the string of inept and underfunded ownership groups. I cannot imagine the NHL wouldn't have loved to have found some local person to at least join one of those groups and help try to get the message to the fans that the team has some roots in Arizona. Look at the messaging the "no" side used in the Tempe referendum, one of their biggest selling points was they were against handouts for a Las Vegas billionaire. Its mentioned in the first two reasons they have listed for voting no on their website. Not just his wealth but also that he isn't local.

Vote No on the Entertainment District - Tempe 1st

 

[StreetHawk]

I'm not sure about the rest of the pro sports but I believe a majority of NHL owners have some local ties to the area their team is in. Also the majority of pro sports teams haven't had relocation rumors swirling around for 15 years either. One of the big reasons often listed in why the Coyotes have not been able to find their footing over that time is the string of inept and underfunded ownership groups. I cannot imagine the NHL wouldn't have loved to have found some local person to at least join one of those groups and help try to get the message to the fans that the team has some roots in Arizona. Look at the messaging the "no" side used in the Tempe referendum, one of their biggest selling points was they were against handouts for a Las Vegas billionaire. Its mentioned in the first two reasons they have listed for voting no on their website. Not just his wealth but also that he isn't local.

Vote No on the Entertainment District - Tempe 1st

Nfl and nba prices are getting into the astronomical amounts of $4 billion for large markets in nba and $6 billion for nfl. Nhl talking like $1.5 billion for teams above Pitt, Ott, Nash.

Those other leagues only a certain number of people in the world who can afford it. Going to need 11 figure net worth for those leagues.

Less likely to find a local person for those leagues moving forward.

 

[Llama19]

Pretty sure its in the NHL by-laws that new owners have to sign one, it made news when Meruelo was given an exemption. I believe when Meruelo bought the team it was reported that the reason Barroway kept his stake was that it was the NHL's reasoning for allowing Meruelo to bypass the seven year rule.

The seven-year no relocation was part of the original LeBlanc/IceArizona agreement...

Barroway entered the picture...as majority 'owner'...the IceArizona LLC did not change...

When Meruelo 'bought' the franchise...he also absorbed the IceArizona LLC...

So...from all indications...there was never a new LLC/agreement..
and it is still listed/controlled/managed under that moniker...

Since the IceArizona LLC agreement was written...back in 2013...
the seven-year, no relocation clause...has long expired...