CXLVI - Future of Coyotes up in air after Tempe rejects arena deal - will remain at Mullet Arena for 2023-24, looking at Fiesta Mall site in Mesa

[Melrose Munch]

And which 6 teams would that be?

toronto
montreal
boston
edmonton
ottawa (original team in the 1920s)
quebec?

They're talking about going back to Atlanta. They desperately want Houston. They believe in one thing and one thing only. The ability to sell people on belief. It's what made them go to these places in the first place. It's what's kept them there for so long despite ample evidence of failure. It's what they're still selling. People will buy belief over data. It's the American way after all.

Where should they go then?

 

[BKIslandersFan]

It's been almost 30 years. How much larger of a sample size do we need?

30 years of mismanagement.

 

[jigglysquishy]

And which 6 teams would that be?

Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton. These are the only cities that had extensive hockey cultures before pro hockey entered the market.

Hockey in Vancouver was very minimal before the Millionaires.

 

[jigglysquishy]

boston

I wouldn't include Boston. The hockey community was very small pre 1924. Only 5 pro players born in state before then. This compares to about 70 from Alberta between the NHL/NHA/PCHA/WCHL.

The hockey population in Massachusetts exploded post Bruins.

 

[Reaser]

Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton. These are the only cities that had extensive hockey cultures before pro hockey entered the market.

Hockey in Vancouver was very minimal before the Millionaires.

Minnesota had a hockey culture before the North Stars existed.

Western PA (Pittsburgh) for sure had some hockey culture before major pro hockey. Michigan to an extent, too.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Minnesota had a hockey culture before the North Stars existed.

Western PA (Pittsburgh) for sure had some hockey culture before major pro hockey. Michigan to an extent, too.

Minnesota is arguable for sure.

Pittsburgh has a small hockey culture today. 100x more so in 1925. Michigan hockey was quite small pre 50s dynasty.

Edit: Pennsylvania only had 4 guys play an NHL game this far. Saskatchewan had 24. Per capita is about 100x difference.

 

[aqib]

30 years of mismanagement.

Yeah that's kind of BS. They were a playoff team when they first arrived in the desert and even the first few years in Glendale they weren't awful. They were basically .500 in the couple of years before bankruptcy. Given how cheap tickets were you would figure people would go just to check it out. I'm not an MLS fan but I've gone when tickets were cheap.

 

[aqib]

Suns got a $260 mill reno around 2020. New lease added 15 years on top of the one that was due to expire in 2022. Lease is then due up in 2037.

Only way another nhl team lands in PHX is if the owner of the suns at the time wants one. Not every nba is going to be like the ones making noise like in Sacramento and Utah about a team. Others like in Houston, Atl, Mil, have been quiet to lukewarm on the idea.

So with the lease ending in 2037, around 2033 there will be talk of a new arena starting. That would be enough time for the Coyotes debacle to have faded and you could have an expansion team join with the Suns and make it an easier sell. Who knows how expensive arenas will be by then.

 

[StreetHawk]

So with the lease ending in 2037, around 2033 there will be talk of a new arena starting. That would be enough time for the Coyotes debacle to have faded and you could have an expansion team join with the Suns and make it an easier sell.

Bos, phi, Stl like phx did 9 figure renovations. So long as the structure is sound there wouldn’t be a need to tear down. Suns gave the arena management rights so up to whoever is the owner at the time to decide if he wants an nhl team or not.

 

[TheLegend]

Yeah that's kind of BS. They were a playoff team when they first arrived in the desert and even the first few years in Glendale they weren't awful. They were basically .500 in the couple of years before bankruptcy. Given how cheap tickets were you would figure people would go just to check it out. I'm not an MLS fan but I've gone when tickets were cheap.

You missed the post above where I mentioned how escalating salaries put them in the red by year three. And they were nothing but a tenant in the arena they played in. The best players were being traded off or allowed to walk because they couldn’t compete at those increasing salary levels

From 2009-2012 they were a playoff team with out of market media projecting them to finish dead before the season and beating relocation drums at the end.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Yeah that's kind of BS. They were a playoff team when they first arrived in the desert and even the first few years in Glendale they weren't awful. They were basically .500 in the couple of years before bankruptcy. Given how cheap tickets were you would figure people would go just to check it out. I'm not an MLS fan but I've gone when tickets were cheap.

Mismanagement as in they put the arena in a terrible location plus bad product.

If NHL works in Dallas and Tampa not really sure why Arizona can't work with right formula.

 

[jkrdevil]

It isn’t just about winning, it is about showing the market that you have a committed, stable ownership that knows what it is doing. Few people are going to invest emotionally and financially (outside of a few games a year for fun) if they think ownership isn’t committed and the team could be gone in a few years.

Let’s look at Nashville as an example. Years 4-8 of the franchise they had a good team, but the market lagged behind. Part of that was they had outsider ownership that the market didn’t trust (and they shouldn’t have given the Balsillie stuff, the subsequent fire sale, and Liepold ditching the team for the Wild). Once the team got committed ownership fan base really began to build. It took off once they matched the Shea Weber contract because the market saw the commitment to be competitive.

Going back to Phoenix. Teams arrives is competitive playing in an ill fit arena. After 2001 guys like Roenick and Tkachuk leave as free agents for financial reason (meanwhile other teams in the market the DBacks at the time are spending to win). The market sours on the team. The team then moves to Glendale on the wrong side of the metro area then you get coach Wayne Gretzky and all of his buddies and it is a disaster on the ice. Then hits the bankruptcy.

The team has a few good seasons after that, but by that time the sword of Damocles is hanging over their head. You can’t build from that.

 

[PredsHead]

It isn’t just about winning, it is about showing the market that you have a committed, stable ownership that knows what it is doing. Few people are going to invest emotionally and financially (outside of a few games a year for fun) if they think ownership isn’t committed and the team could be gone in a few years.

Let’s look at Nashville as an example. Years 4-8 of the franchise they had a good team, but the market lagged behind. Part of that was they had outsider ownership that the market didn’t trust (and they shouldn’t have given the Balsillie stuff, the subsequent fire sale, and Liepold ditching the team for the Wild). Once the team got committed ownership fan base really began to build. It took off once they matched the Shea Weber contract because the market saw the commitment to be competitive.

Going back to Phoenix. Teams arrives is competitive playing in an ill fit arena. After 2001 guys like Roenick and Tkachuk leave as free agents for financial reason (meanwhile other teams in the market the DBacks at the time are spending to win). The market sours on the team. The team then moves to Glendale on the wrong side of the metro area then you get coach Wayne Gretzky and all of his buddies and it is a disaster on the ice. Then hits the bankruptcy.

The team has a few good seasons after that, but by that time the sword of Damocles is hanging over their head. You can’t build from that.

The big difference between Nashville and Arizona is that every time Nashville was in trouble, a group of local investors has come forward to give the team a chance. Unless I am mistaken the last local owner the Coyotes had was Jerry Moyes and he was trying to sell them for relocation. The Coyotes have been sold several times since then and I am not aware of any serious attempts by any local groups to try and buy the team. One would think if any group of decently funded local owners would have wanted the Coyotes over the last 15 years, the NHL would have done everything they could to make that happen.

 

[TheLegend]

The big difference between Nashville and Arizona is that every time Nashville was in trouble, a group of local investors has come forward to give the team a chance. Unless I am mistaken the last local owner the Coyotes had was Jerry Moyes and he was trying to sell them for relocation. The Coyotes have been sold several times since then and I am not aware of any serious attempts by any local groups to try and buy the team. One would think if any group of decently funded local owners would have wanted the Coyotes over the last 15 years, the NHL would have done everything they could to make that happen.

Different time.

US was in a recession, with Arizona and Nevada getting hit the hardest with the housing bubble. You weren't going to find many big hitters looking to invest their other than the vultures and flippers.

BTW.... Moyes had basically walked away from the Coyotes. Turned the keys over to the NHL to run in November of 2008. Within a few months Gary Bettman arranged to have Jerry Reinsdorf buy the Coyotes. But Moyes still was the legal owner and was conned into putting the Coyotes into bankruptcy by Richard Rodier, (on behalf of Jim Balsillie.) because he was convinced by Rodier he could get a bigger return. This all went down the day of the 2009 Draft. Bettman was on a plane with the paperwork in hand.

Now what wasn't known at the time was Moyes had taken out an $80 million loan from Michael Dell's financing company to cover losses from his trucking and transportation companies.... and used the Coyotes as the collateral. Which violated NHL bylaws. Plus... he had Gretzky on an $8 million/yr personal services contract, and tossed that onto the franchise books before he dumped them into BK.

So no..... Moyes wasn't selling for relocation. He was conned into participating in Balsillie's scheme. The same one he tried with Nashville when Craig Leipold owned them.

 

[PredsHead]

Different time.

US was in a recession, with Arizona and Nevada getting hit the hardest with the housing bubble. You weren't going to find many big hitters looking to invest their other than the vultures and flippers.

BTW.... Moyes had basically walked away from the Coyotes. Turned the keys over to the NHL to run in November of 2008. Within a few months Gary Bettman arranged to have Jerry Reinsdorf buy the Coyotes. But Moyes still was the legal owner and was conned into putting the Coyotes into bankruptcy by Richard Rodier, (on behalf of Jim Balsillie.) because he was convinced by Rodier he could get a bigger return. This all went down the day of the 2009 Draft. Bettman was on a plane with the paperwork in hand.

Now what wasn't known at the time was Moyes had taken out an $80 million loan from Michael Dell's financing company to cover losses from his trucking and transportation companies.... and used the Coyotes as the collateral. Which violated NHL bylaws. Plus... he had Gretzky on an $8 million/yr personal services contract, and tossed that onto the franchise books before he dumped them into BK.

So no..... Moyes wasn't selling for relocation. He was conned into participating in Balsillie's scheme. The same one he tried with Nashville when Craig Leipold owned them.

Again the Coyotes have been sold several times since then and no one local has stepped forward to buy them or expressed interest in doing so.

 

[TheLegend]

Again the Coyotes have been sold several times since then and no one local has stepped forward to buy them or expressed interest in doing so.

What does it matter?? Ellman and Moyes were local.

There are plenty of franchises who have not had local owners. Even Montreal was owned at one time by an American.

Every group that has bought the Coyotes has looked to keep the team in Arizona.

 

[PredsHead]

What does it matter?? Ellman and Moyes were local.

There are plenty of franchises who have not had local owners. Even Montreal was owned at one time by an American.

Every group that has bought the Coyotes has looked to keep the team in Arizona.

The poster I was replying to was talking about how similar the situations in Nashville and Arizona are, I was saying that there is a very important distinction between the two in that local people stepped up every time the Preds needed it and Arizona has relied on whatever misfits Bettman could get to bite.

I believe every group who bought the Coyotes, except Meruelo, would have been bound to keep them there for 7 years as part of their purchase agreement too. Not sure any of them lasted more than 4 years though.

 

[tucker3434]

The big difference between Nashville and Arizona is that every time Nashville was in trouble, a group of local investors has come forward to give the team a chance. Unless I am mistaken the last local owner the Coyotes had was Jerry Moyes and he was trying to sell them for relocation. The Coyotes have been sold several times since then and I am not aware of any serious attempts by any local groups to try and buy the team. One would think if any group of decently funded local owners would have wanted the Coyotes over the last 15 years, the NHL would have done everything they could to make that happen.

Also, Bridgestone Arena. I’d imagine most markets the size of Nashville would have a local group with interest if a viable arena is attached. It’s tough to commit $500m+ without any real idea where the team will be playing in 5 years. It’s a different kind of risk and will likely require a guy like Meruelo, who got rejected by the NBA from buying the Hawks a decade ago.

I will never understand how the Phoenix area had two arenas capable of supporting an NHL team and couldn’t find a way to make either work.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

Mismanagement as in they put the arena in a terrible location plus bad product.

If NHL works in Dallas and Tampa not really sure why Arizona can't work with right formula.

The NHL can work in Arizona.

Whether or not the Coyotes can at this stage is unknown.

 

[LadyStanley]

NHLPA looking into travel rules broken and may be looking to "death by 1000 cuts" to get change.

 

[patnyrnyg]

Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton. These are the only cities that had extensive hockey cultures before pro hockey entered the market.

Hockey in Vancouver was very minimal before the Millionaires.

NYC did not have ice hockey at the youth level before Emile Francis. While it is still nothing compared to other sports, it is not hard nowadays for a kid to find a team if they want to play.

 

[patnyrnyg]

I am wondering how much of the issue is due to Meruelo (SP?)? I do not know much about him, but what I have heard he seems like a sleezy businessman. Some will say he is being smart, most will say what he does is highly unethical. Would they be having this issue if the owners of the Suns, Dbacks, or Cardinals bought the team?

They're talking about going back to Atlanta. They desperately want Houston. They believe in one thing and one thing only. The ability to sell people on belief. It's what made them go to these places in the first place. It's what's kept them there for so long despite ample evidence of failure. It's what they're still selling. People will buy belief over data. It's the American way after all.

They may desperately want Houston, but the only potential owner for a franchise in Houston is not desperate to get a team. He is interested, but he is only interested on his terms. So, NHL would have to broker a deal in which Fertita thinks he is basically stealing the team.

 

[ponder719]

I am wondering how much of the issue is due to Meruelo (SP?)? I do not know much about him, but what I have heard he seems like a sleezy businessman. Some will say he is being smart, most will say what he does is highly unethical. Would they be having this issue if the owners of the Suns, Dbacks, or Cardinals bought the team?

I can't imagine having the Bidwills purchase the team would result in a significant improvement over the clown cars that have previously run the team. The Suns, having been owned by Sarver for most the Coyotes' time in the city, would not have been an option because he simply didn't want them. Ishbia appears to be the current great hope for anyone who wants the team to find a stable owner without relocation and re-entry as an expansion team. I know the proverbial two things about the Dbacks ownership wherein jack just left town, so I won't comment on them.

 

[patnyrnyg]

I can't imagine having the Bidwills purchase the team would result in a significant improvement over the clown cars that have previously run the team. The Suns, having been owned by Sarver for most the Coyotes' time in the city, would not have been an option because he simply didn't want them. Ishbia appears to be the current great hope for anyone who wants the team to find a stable owner without relocation and re-entry as an expansion team. I know the proverbial two things about the Dbacks ownership wherein jack just left town, so I won't comment on them.

I meant in regards to getting an arena deal done. Do those other owners have better credibility with the public that could make the difference?

 

[StreetHawk]

I meant in regards to getting an arena deal done. Do those other owners have better credibility with the public that could make the difference?

Bidwell, for the Cardinals is regarded as cheap. AZ got extremely low grades from their players. Don't see him putting up the money for a new arena. Only good grades are the strength coaches & training staffs. So, more about the people who got hired than what the owner has done.

Diamondbacks, also are dealing with the city on either upgrades to their stadium or looking to leave for another location within AZ. I don't foresee PHX looking to use the ballpark land, should the DBacks move elsewhere in the State on a hockey arena when Footprint Arena serves the city's indoor needs for non sporting events.

Suns, not much is known about him since he took over. Suns have a lease with Footprint until 2037 and it got a $260 mill renovation in around 2020 (with $210 mill coming from the city). Arena would require a significant retrofit, which before their last reno, the city deemed it was more financially prudent to tear the arena down and rebuild new vs try to retrofit it for hockey and bring it up to 2020 standards. I would guess we are looking at a 9 figure number to do that retrofit down the line. And in the end, it comes down to whether the Suns owner wants to own an NHL team or not.