CXLIX - FINAL thoughts on the Arizona Coyotes

madhi19

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VaCaps Fan

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Alex’s son can get a job with fanatics. Shane Doan is truly a class act if Josh is any indication.
 

StreetHawk

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I am curious how much money he actually walked away with. Different sources are saying different things
Probably won’t know the real number.

Between things like the amount of debt AM assumed when he took over. Price he actually paid to buy the team, debt that Smith assumes, and what he was paid to sell the team.

So, hard to say what he “paid” and what he sold for in the end as I doubt those numbers will be completely accurate.

I’m sure he came out ahead. Quadruple his money? Not sure it was that much. But it should more than cover any loses he incurred while running the team and give him something for buying the nhl a few more years in AZ.
 

Tawnos

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Probably won’t know the real number.

Between things like the amount of debt AM assumed when he took over. Price he actually paid to buy the team, debt that Smith assumes, and what he was paid to sell the team.

So, hard to say what he “paid” and what he sold for in the end as I doubt those numbers will be completely accurate.

I’m sure he came out ahead. Quadruple his money? Not sure it was that much. But it should more than cover any loses he incurred while running the team and give him something for buying the nhl a few more years in AZ.

I doubt very much that Smith assumed any of the existing Coyotes debt, but otherwise you're right on. We'll never know how much Meruelo actually made.
 
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Headshot77

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I am curious how much money he actually walked away with. Different sources are saying different things
My loosest guess:

$450mil acquisition cost + assumption of maybe $200mil of debt + $20mil/yr x5 years of debt running the team = $750mil

He walks with about $250k, Don't take that number as gospel.
 
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Yukon Joe

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My loosest guess:

$450mil acquisition cost + assumption of maybe $200mil of debt + $20mil/yr x5 years of debt running the team = $750mil

He walks with about $250k, Don't take that number as gospel.

Don't forget the money he invested into Mullett so the Yotes could play there.

But really this is just throwing darts at a board. We have no idea. For example I think the Coyotes probably had very little net equity when he first acquired the team (that is their debt was much higher) but I have nothing to back that up.
 

Shwan

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I doubt very much that Smith assumed any of the existing Coyotes debt, but otherwise you're right on. We'll never know how much Meruelo actually made.
Correct. Even with the unusual caveat of Alex keeping the Intellectual property of the franchise, that still wouldn't have required much more work on the bill of sale between the principles for a straight sale.

The reason Smith never met Meruelo and the cash was washed through the League was so the League could pay off the established debts (Estimated at around $200M) they've been holding on to. They then gave the remainder to Alex so he could pay off the short-term debts he accrued in the ~5 years he had the team and walked away with whatever was left.

Hence Smith's quote about "not worrying" about the valuation of the franchise:
“I’m not a private equity guy who is sitting here trying to analyze what [the valuation] is going to be,” he said. “I’m bullish on the future of hockey. I’ve seen the transformation on the TV deal, I’ve seen the demand for live sports up close and personal. We’ve had the Frozen Fury here, we know what it’s like, and we want to lean in on it. I don’t need to see more.”

This deal was expressly made in a way no one would know just how much Meruelo walked away with, so the League could protect the valuation for future concerns. And everyone in the league knows better than to question it.

But it would also explain why it's Utah and not Atlanta or Houston etc. because Smith was willing to play ball and write the check where other ownership groups like Fertitta would balk (or probably balked) at the idea of having to horribly overpay for an existing franchise because it's mountains of debt from past sins needed to be paid off.

Maybe in a few years someone will leak the details. Won't hold my breath on Craig Morgan though :laugh:
 

DustyDangler

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I doubt very much that Smith assumed any of the existing Coyotes debt, but otherwise you're right on. We'll never know how much Meruelo actually made.
SEG absolutely did not acquire Coyotes debt as they did not acquire the Coyotes or Coyotes liabilities. SEG purchased the contracts of players, the operations staff and draft picks.
 
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Boris Zubov

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Correct. Even with the unusual caveat of Alex keeping the Intellectual property of the franchise, that still wouldn't have required much more work on the bill of sale between the principles for a straight sale.

The reason Smith never met Meruelo and the cash was washed through the League was so the League could pay off the established debts (Estimated at around $200M) they've been holding on to. They then gave the remainder to Alex so he could pay off the short-term debts he accrued in the ~5 years he had the team and walked away with whatever was left.

Hence Smith's quote about "not worrying" about the valuation of the franchise:


This deal was expressly made in a way no one would know just how much Meruelo walked away with, so the League could protect the valuation for future concerns. And everyone in the league knows better than to question it.

But it would also explain why it's Utah and not Atlanta or Houston etc. because Smith was willing to play ball and write the check where other ownership groups like Fertitta would balk (or probably balked) at the idea of having to horribly overpay for an existing franchise because it's mountains of debt from past sins needed to be paid off.

Maybe in a few years someone will leak the details. Won't hold my breath on Craig Morgan though :laugh:
I'd eat my hat if that debt wasn't between $400-500M. 28 years as the Coyotes, they never once turned a profit... in the article @TheLegend posted on the last page from 2008 about Jerry Moyes waving the white flag, it said the team had estimated losses of $30M in back to back years of 06-07 & 07-08. Add another $30M in the season directly before the bankruptcy & you're almost at $100M for those 3 years. $200M was probably lost before the league extracted $50M from Glendale over 2 years in 2011.

They never hosted another playoff game after 2012....& 15 years following the bankruptcy you had Mureulo losing "a ton" as Bettman stated during the press conference to announce the sale to SLC. Don't get me wrong, Meruelo still made a tidy profit from his investment, but it's way less than most people think.
 
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TheLegend

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I doubt very much that Smith assumed any of the existing Coyotes debt, but otherwise you're right on. We'll never know how much Meruelo actually made.

In basic terms (or how I'm seeing it).....

Smith paid $1.2 billion for an expansion slot. Instead of getting an expansion draft he took over a fully built hockey-ops department plus player contracts.

NHL took $200 million off the top for relocation.

Meruelo took $1 billion but probably had to settle the outstanding debt with the NHL's LOC (estimated $300-350 million ?)

Meruelo pays out $10 million to local youth hockey programs and remaining employees.

Meruelo settles what other debts/losses incurred while owning the Coyotes (which Bettman says was "a ton"). Let's say 5 years x $60 million/year = $300 million.

Plus all the expenses attempting to get a new arena. Let's say $10 million (TED was $7 million alone)

Leaves Meruelo netting in the neighborhood of $250-300 million.
 
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Shwan

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I'd eat my hat if that debt wasn't between $400-500M. 28 years as the Coyotes, they never once turned a profit... in the article @TheLegend posted on the last page from 2008 about Jerry Moyes waving the white flag, it said the team had estimated losses of $30M in back to back years of 06-07 & 07-08. Add another $30M in the season directly before the bankruptcy & you're almost at $100M for those 3 years. $200M was probably lost before the league extracted $50M from Glendale over 2 years in 2011.

Llama and I have used this article circa 2015 as the reference point but I definitely wouldn't argue with you though if it was double+ my estimate.

Documents acquired by Forbes via a Freedom of Information Act request with the City of Glendale, Arizona, show that the Coyotes Gila River Arena Management Company had $177 million of debt as of June, 2014. Of that $177 million, $79 million was a loan from Fortress and $85 million was a loan from the NHL that were used to finance the purchase of the team.

You had Mureulo losing "a ton" as Bettman stated during the press conference to announce the sale to SLC. Don't get me wrong, Meruelo still made a tidy profit from his investment, but it's way less than most people think.

Absolutely. The fact that no one has even bothered to actually ask the league about this throughout this entire saga certainly speaks volumes though. Funny how when I brought his losses up a year ago I was met with "it's just paper losses and he's not really losing that much" :laugh:
 
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aqib

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My loosest guess:

$450mil acquisition cost + assumption of maybe $200mil of debt + $20mil/yr x5 years of debt running the team = $750mil

He walks with about $250k, Don't take that number as gospel.
I think the $450M included the assumption of debt. So if you figure $30M a year of regular losses and another $50 million on the Mullet retrofit and pursuit of a new arena. That's $650 million. So I have him walking away with $350M if you increase the losses to $40M a year that's still $300M
 

LPHabsFan

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I'd eat my hat if that debt wasn't between $400-500M. 28 years as the Coyotes, they never once turned a profit... in the article @TheLegend posted on the last page from 2008 about Jerry Moyes waving the white flag, it said the team had estimated losses of $30M in back to back years of 06-07 & 07-08. Add another $30M in the season directly before the bankruptcy & you're almost at $100M for those 3 years. $200M was probably lost before the league extracted $50M from Glendale over 2 years in 2011.

They never hosted another playoff game after 2012....& 15 years following the bankruptcy you had Mureulo losing "a ton" as Bettman stated during the press conference to announce the sale to SLC. Don't get me wrong, Meruelo still made a tidy profit from his investment, but it's way less than most people think.

Get ready to eat your hat because there's no way that the losses are that low. I did my own back of the napkin mathematics a while ago and put it closer to 650 - 800 million.

In basic terms (or how I'm seeing it).....

Smith paid $1.2 billion for an expansion slot. Instead of getting an expansion draft he took over a fully built hockey-ops department plus player contracts.

NHL took $200k off the top for relocation.

Meruelo took $1 billion but probably had to settle the outstanding debt with the NHL's LOC (estimated $300-350 million ?)

Meruelo pays out $10 million to local youth hockey programs and remaining employees.

Meruelo settles what other debts/losses incurred while owning the Coyotes (which Bettman says was "a ton"). Let's say 5 years x $60 million/year = $300 million.

Plus all the expenses attempting to get a new arena. Let's say $10 million (TED was $7 million alone)

Leaves Meruelo netting in the neighborhood of $250-300 million.
The league has been doing everything they can to prioritize expansion fees. Why would they accept something so low when they controlled the entire process? (Also, it's 200 million, not 200k :))
Llama and I have used this article circa 2015 as the reference point but I definitely wouldn't argue with you though if it was double+ my estimate.

Absolutely. The fact that no one has even bothered to actually ask the league about this throughout this entire saga certainly speaks volumes though. Funny how when I brought his losses up a year ago I was met with "it's just paper losses and he's not really losing that much" :laugh:
Media members haven't asked publicly because, like this entire process, they've been told if they want to continue to have access to the things they can report about, and subsequently the reason for having a job, they better control the narrative to the NHL's liking. Been that way the entire team.
 

TheLegend

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The league has been doing everything they can to prioritize expansion fees. Why would they accept something so low when they controlled the entire process? (Also, it's 200 million, not 200k :))

Fixed it..... thanks.

You're right about protecting the expansion fee. I expect Atlanta will be a minimum of $1.2 billion.... possibly more if it takes another year or two to get the process rolling officially.

Also don't expect the $1 billion "reactivation" fee for Arizona to be there either. It goes back into the "whatever the hell the league feels like queue".

Media members haven't asked publicly because, like this entire process, they've been told if they want to continue to have access to the things they can report about, and subsequently the reason for having a job, they better control the narrative to the NHL's liking. Been that way the entire team.

You mean "time" don't you?? ;)
 
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aqib

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Fixed it..... thanks.

You're right about protecting the expansion fee. I expect Atlanta will be a minimum of $1.2 billion.... possibly more if it takes another year or two to get the process rolling officially.

Also don't expect the $1 billion "reactivation" fee for Arizona to be there either. It goes back into the "whatever the hell the league feels like queue".



You mean "time" don't you?? ;)

The line at the end: As for the future of hockey in the desert, Bettman said at the NHL's Board of Governors meetings it is not something the NHL is focused on.

The only hope is if its paired with the Suns somehow. Either the Suns expanding Footprint's footprint (pun intended) or waiting until the lease is up and a new arena is built.
 
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StreetHawk

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The line at the end: As for the future of hockey in the desert, Bettman said at the NHL's Board of Governors meetings it is not something the NHL is focused on.

The only hope is if its paired with the Suns somehow. Either the Suns expanding Footprint's footprint (pun intended) or waiting until the lease is up and a new arena is built.
Footprint was renovated around Covid time. The new lease extended by 15 years to 2037. So lots of time between now and around 2034 when they would discuss plans for the arena. It only received a facelift not a structural change like Utah is now doing.

I do recall Phx wanted to just tear it down vs do the structural change given time and cost. Not sure if that would change following this reno. Probably not.
 

TheLegend

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The line at the end: As for the future of hockey in the desert, Bettman said at the NHL's Board of Governors meetings it is not something the NHL is focused on.

The only hope is if its paired with the Suns somehow. Either the Suns expanding Footprint's footprint (pun intended) or waiting until the lease is up and a new arena is built.

That’s Bettman’s canned answer for whenever he’s asked about expansion.
The NHL is never focused on something until they are.

But that said…. I agree that one of the two existing arenas are going to have to be involved with any NHL expansion in the market. The political ramifications of a third arena are obvious.
 

aqib

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Footprint was renovated around Covid time. The new lease extended by 15 years to 2037. So lots of time between now and around 2034 when they would discuss plans for the arena. It only received a facelift not a structural change like Utah is now doing.

I do recall Phx wanted to just tear it down vs do the structural change given time and cost. Not sure if that would change following this reno. Probably not.

Well I am sure Phx is done putting up money into that arena in the short term. However, if in the near term the NHL is looking at expansion and Suns ownership is interested maybe they consider blowing out one of the walls and creating enough room to fit an ice sheet in.
 
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StreetHawk

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Well I am sure Phx is done putting up money into that arena in the short term. However, if in the near term the NHL is looking at expansion and Suns ownership is interested maybe they consider blowing out one of the walls and creating enough room to fit an ice sheet in.
Phx or AZ is supposed to be a big market. Is it about time that they begin daring their sports team to make good on their threat to leave vs giving in and putting up 9 figures of tax payers money into arenas? I mean the suns being in AZ was about a $500 mill difference vs what the Milwaukee Bucks was valued for.

City put in around $160 mill to gain an extra 15 years on the lease. Most new venue sports team leases are like 30 years.
 

aqib

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I'd eat my hat if that debt wasn't between $400-500M. 28 years as the Coyotes, they never once turned a profit... in the article @TheLegend posted on the last page from 2008 about Jerry Moyes waving the white flag, it said the team had estimated losses of $30M in back to back years of 06-07 & 07-08. Add another $30M in the season directly before the bankruptcy & you're almost at $100M for those 3 years. $200M was probably lost before the league extracted $50M from Glendale over 2 years in 2011.

They never hosted another playoff game after 2012....& 15 years following the bankruptcy you had Mureulo losing "a ton" as Bettman stated during the press conference to announce the sale to SLC. Don't get me wrong, Meruelo still made a tidy profit from his investment, but it's way less than most people think.

Remember whatever debts they had before the bankruptcy were zeroed out when the NHL bought them. So they lost $30 million+ $50 million that Glendale covered. So when IA bought them for $170 million figure the debt starts there and the you have 11 years of losses.
 
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Voight

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That’s Bettman’s canned answer for whenever he’s asked about expansion.
The NHL is never focused on something until they are.

But that said…. I agree that one of the two existing arenas are going to have to be involved with any NHL expansion in the market. The political ramifications of a third arena are obvious.

Financial ramifications more than anything, nobody is going to drop billions of dollars for a team and arena, when there are already two viable ones in the area.
 

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